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Thread: Bakumatsu Integration into APD

  1. #1
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    Bakumatsu Integration into APD

    So on my list of "things to do" was the integration of the old Bakumatsu Mod back into PDM. The Bakumatsu Mod did some excellent things, one of the foremost being that it added some interest and turmoil to an otherwise boring country... for such a great power, Japan's one of the few countries to have next to no new PDM events added for it. Even in vanilla it only has very few.

    What the Bakumatsu Mod did that eventually got it removed from PDM, however, was that it created a separate nation for each daimyo (over thirty) in addition to the Tokugawa Shogunate and some of the successor states that the Shogunate became in the course of the Boshin War. That was a tremendous amount of countries, all OPM's that simply got swallowed up the moment the Boshin War began... and none of which were actually nations in their own right, anyhow.

    After looking through the events & decisions in the mod, another issue is that they were all quite deterministic-- triggers were mainly just set to occur in a certain year, and only a portion of the AI daimyos had any choice which side they joined once the Boshin War occurred. I think, however, that the spirit of these things can be retained to a degree even if a less deterministic route can be charted.

    Essentially, what I'd like to do is this:

    Lead-Up to the War: there are two main events that occur, starting (in the mod) with Admiral Perry's mission to Japan. I think that can be made less deterministic by tying them to Japan switching to interactive reform... that's really where the trouble started for the shogunate, after all. Some decisions like the Admiral Perry one could be allowed to encourage this to happen, but once the interactive reform is obtained then the trouble starts-- the Ansei Purge, the Imperial Order to Expel the Barbarians and the Assassination of Il Naosuke in particular.

    Ideally it would work like the Taiping Rebellion. One new tag (the shogunate getting its own tag and JAP being the rebellious Imperial government) that starts in Kyoto and spreads from there.

    The Boshin War: Again, like the Taiping Rebellion, this would result in Imperial Japan seceding from the shogunate and starting a civil war. If Imperial Japan wins (there are surrender events for both sides), it annexes the shogunate and gets its decision to move its capital back to Edo (and change its name). This would allow it to enact the Meiji Restoration. In the mod, the shogunate has a similar (if slightly less effective) version of the decision if it wins the war. I don't think I would bother with Ōuetsu Reppan Dōmei and the Ezo Republic, which were both just extensions of the war itself.

    Post-War Events: One event is the Satsuma Rebellion, a good one for post-civilized Japan-- as an attempt to restore the shogunate. There would also need to be a decision for a successful shogunate to Become Japan if it stops being a monarchy.

    Only question, really, would be what to do if the shogunate civilizes prior to the Boshin War-- there's no way to prevent it, after all. So would the Boshin War still happen if it civilizes? Would it happen immediately?

    Overall, though, I think I can do this... it's an interesting challenge not unlike the Warlord Era. Just looking for Naselus' okay-- and maybe some thoughts thrown out from people who know more about this than I do.

  2. #2
    Sounds interesting

    This is one place where I would eve be tempted to use the substate mechanics, tbh; break Japan up into single states, all substated to the Shogunate. The have the Imperial cores spread out, breaking that substateness. I've not really thought it through much, but I did kinda like having Japan fragmented in the early game - otherwise it's rather too powerful, with that giant goldmine and a huge, literate primary population.
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  3. #3
    Lt. General Mikeboy's Avatar
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    I think that you should include the Northern Alliance and Republic of Ezo for flavour purposes, the former being a simple tag switch once the Shogunate has lost control of Edo and the latter being like Formosa in the Taiping event chain. Overall though I like the idea.

    Maybe if it civilises prior to the Boshin War then it could be blighted by a rebel type like the Boxers, or you could add a 'Japanese attack foreigners' event that grants the civilised GPs humiliate or cut down to size CBs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    This is one place where I would eve be tempted to use the substate mechanics, tbh; break Japan up into single states, all substated to the Shogunate. The have the Imperial cores spread out, breaking that substateness. I've not really thought it through much, but I did kinda like having Japan fragmented in the early game - otherwise it's rather too powerful, with that giant goldmine and a huge, literate primary population.
    The one problem with having all those single states is that they all require separate tags-- and there's over 30 of them in Bakumatsu. I could include them, and perhaps even amalgamate some to reduce the number, but that still seems like a waste. Particularly if new tags are part of the slow-down (though I was playing NNM the other day and the speed was about the same as regular AHD, so perhaps they're not).

    So if you'd like me to do that, I can; substates would certainly be appropriate in this instance. A few other options:

    1) We start with one substate, JAP (as Imperial Japan), and when its cores spread they annex the province to the substate. This actually gives JAP some time to build up its own forces, as well.

    2) We represent the decentralized nature of the Japanese government with a country modifier, perhaps one that further reduces administrative & RGO efficiency.

    Perhaps a combination of the above? I'm not sure.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeboy View Post
    I think that you should include the Northern Alliance and Republic of Ezo for flavour purposes, the former being a simple tag switch once the Shogunate has lost control of Edo and the latter being like Formosa in the Taiping event chain.
    The difference being that Formosa/Taiwan already existed as a tag-- and one that has its own distinct primary culture. Adding two tags that would be little more than a speed bump for the rest of Japan, and which existed only briefly in a war that lasted (in RL) for two years total. I don't see the point in adding new tags which have neither a distinct culture nor a realistic potential of returning at some point in the future.

    Maybe if it civilises prior to the Boshin War then it could be blighted by a rebel type like the Boxers, or you could add a 'Japanese attack foreigners' event that grants the civilised GPs humiliate or cut down to size CBs.
    Not sure I want to add a new rebel group, though I could-- and, in this case, TKG is likely to eventually become JAP anyhow even if it wins the Boshin War. I suppose civilizing could start the Boshin War immediately, or at least speed it up.

    The problem, from a civilizing standpoint, is that we've traditionally used the Meiji Restoration (1868) as the point where Japan civilizes. Currently that's changed to a modifier that accelerates Japan's civilizing process, but normally occurs long before 1868. Historically that's the date where the Boshin War ended and Emperor Meiji assumed control of the nation. He implemented many reforms, but game-wise Japan wouldn't have actually civilized until perhaps the 1880's. So unless the Boshin War happens earlier (like in the 1850's), the Meiji Restoration isn't going to come in time to make Japan's civilizing any easier... and, indeed, it could possibly manage it before then.

  6. #6
    Leader of the Revolution etranger01's Avatar
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    I haven't played APD yet, but it sounds like your idea with substates being pre-rebellion breakaway states could very easily be applied to Hungary, the CSA, Entre Rios, and all the other by-event rebellions, giving them a much stronger chance of succeeding in their aims rather than simply being steamrolled due to lack of development or build-up. Basically there'd be a substate secession event describing the increasingly strained ties and calls for rebellion, a delay, and then finally the war itself. I doubt there could be a possible compromise to avoid armed conflict in the Civil War, but Austria could probably form the Double Monarchy (and end its German ambitions) to avoid a Hungarian revolt, Argentina could democratize, et cetera. Just my two cents.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by etranger01 View Post
    I haven't played APD yet, but it sounds like your idea with substates being pre-rebellion breakaway states could very easily be applied to Hungary, the CSA, Entre Rios, and all the other by-event rebellions, giving them a much stronger chance of succeeding in their aims rather than simply being steamrolled due to lack of development or build-up. Basically there'd be a substate secession event describing the increasingly strained ties and calls for rebellion, a delay, and then finally the war itself. I doubt there could be a possible compromise to avoid armed conflict in the Civil War, but Austria could probably form the Double Monarchy (and end its German ambitions) to avoid a Hungarian revolt, Argentina could democratize, et cetera. Just my two cents.
    Maybe. I could see it working for Austria, perhaps, mainly because it would allow us to do several things which have dogged us regarding Austria for some time:

    1) Set literacy rates according to region.

    2) Nerf Austria without removing all their cores.

    3) Deal with the internal immigration/assimilation issue in Austria that people keep whining about.

    4) It would indeed allow Hungary to have some buildup prior to the revolution. Perhaps too much. The Dual Monarchy decision would then allow Austria to annex Hungary, which kind of makes sense.

    The thing I like about substates is that they don't form an invincible shield-- a country can actually grab regions by warring with the substate's master. The part I don't know so well, however, is how the AI works with this. Do they know they can use that CB on the master, even if they don't actually border them any longer? Might confuse the AI the same way the impassable borders seem to.

    Regardless, this isn't really about Austria and other places. The substate thing might work well in Japan simply because Japan is off in its own part of the world with no real neighbours-- wars to gain Japanese territory don't happen very often, at least until late in the game.

  8. #8
    Leader of the Revolution etranger01's Avatar
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    I definitely like the idea of Japanese substates. It would make the country less bizarrely monolithic pre-Meiji and give Japan players something fun to do prior to and following modernization besides the slow conquest of the Pacific.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by etranger01 View Post
    I haven't played APD yet, but it sounds like your idea with substates being pre-rebellion breakaway states could very easily be applied to Hungary, the CSA, Entre Rios, and all the other by-event rebellions, giving them a much stronger chance of succeeding in their aims rather than simply being steamrolled due to lack of development or build-up. Basically there'd be a substate secession event describing the increasingly strained ties and calls for rebellion, a delay, and then finally the war itself. I doubt there could be a possible compromise to avoid armed conflict in the Civil War, but Austria could probably form the Double Monarchy (and end its German ambitions) to avoid a Hungarian revolt, Argentina could democratize, et cetera. Just my two cents.
    This would also permit Hungary to be SOI'd out of the Austrian Empire, would mean no-one in the CSA gets a vote in the US elections, and dozens of other minor issues. Substates aren't very useful for many of the reasons Vassals were such a pain in vanilla.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    This would also permit Hungary to be SOI'd out of the Austrian Empire, would mean no-one in the CSA gets a vote in the US elections, and dozens of other minor issues. Substates aren't very useful for many of the reasons Vassals were such a pain in vanilla.
    Still might not be a bad idea to try it out for Hungary-- though it being sphered could be problematic. I believe substates are automatically at war with someone even if they're sphered by them (though that would need to be tested), however, and any sphereing of Hungary could be removed by the revolution event when it occurs. And it's not a democracy, so elections won't be an issue.

    At any rate, I'm not really proposing that we start using substates everywhere anyhow, and I'd rather not derail this thread into a discussion about them. I just want to make a plan for what to do with Japan.

  11. #11
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    Personally, I wouldn't like to see a lot of doubtful substates whose main purpose is to later be annexed. That would be pre-1603 stuff. I do like the idea of starting out with the Shogunate and having the possibility of an Imperial restoration (And perhaps, if done right, a Military-Breakout-Samurai-State like the Northern Alliance, but not necessarily it in name) - Civil War style, so you could pick your faction. But of course, it should feel plausible and not forced in that certain conditions will have to be met for it to happen at all.

  12. #12
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    Okay, so my current plan:

    1) Create an Imperial Japan substate (after replacing Japan as it currently exists with TKG - Shogunate Japan). My first thought is to simply give it Kyoto and Osaka to start, though we could give it much of the territory south of that (all the provinces listed in Bakumatsu as will-always-support-the-Emperor). If so, then the core spread would need to be much slower. As an alternative, adding Yamaguchi (for the Choshu) and Kagoshima/Miyazaki (for the Satsuma) would also work.

    If we want to further restrict Japan, a "Rule of the Daimyos" modifier which further reduces admin/RGO efficiency (but perhaps also increases military org or lowers CON) would be useful.

    2) Add the "Commodore Perry" decision for the USA, to have it possibly start an incident with Japan unless it agrees to become interactive. Beyond that, the "Our Master's Voice" should take care of any other potential intervention by a sphere overlord to force Japan to open up (barring the "Sailor on our Shores" event doing it, first).

    3) Becoming interactive kicks off the "Sonnō jōi" event, kicking off the JAP core spread and starting infrequent province events for rebellions against foreigners in provinces with western province modifiers.

    4) If the cores have begun to spread, that will eventually result in the death of the childless Iesada and the resulting struggle for his successor. The historical result is the appointment of the child Shogun, Iemochi, and Ii Naosuke becoming Tairo... and the resulting "Ansei Purge" decision-- which slows down the core spread. Alternatively, Yoshinobu could achieve power, which speeds up the core spread.

    5) Following the Ansei Purge, the "Sakuradamon Incident" event is inevitable-- which results in Yoshinobu achieving power and speeding up core spread again.

    6) JAP gets the "Order to Expel Barbarians" decision if TKG is still interactive, which reduces TKG's relations with foreign GP's and speeds up the "Sonnō jōi" rebellion events.

    7) Provided the "Order to Expel Barbarians" decision has been used and Yoshinobu is in power, the timer begins for the "Boshin War" event to begin. When it does, JAP is released and the civil war starts. A surrender event can be used by either side to win.

    8) After winning, either JAP or TKG may use the "Fukoku Kyōhei" ("Enrich the country, strengthen the military") decision to accelerate research-- the "Meiji Restoration" decision is removed (or it's just the name for JAP's version of this). If the "Rule of the Daimyos" modifier is used, JAP will get the "Hanseki Hōkan" decision to eliminate the daimyos and remove the modifier. Doing so will prompt a "Satsuma Rebellion" event later. TKG gets a "Become Japan" decision if it stops being an Absolute Monarchy, which changes its tag.

    As an addendum: With regards to the civilizing thing, I suppose I have three choices-- one is that civilizing doesn't affect this at all. Two is that either JAP or TKG civilizing also civilizes the other immediately... and that if it's JAP who civilizes first, the Boshin War starts immediately. If it's TKG who civilizes first, it gets to annex JAP.

  13. #13
    Oh, Japan! Good to see it getting some love. This sequence looks really awesome.

    I'm actually not sure substates work for the Bakumatsu event chain as you've got it there - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have JAP sitting around in 1836, except maybe in Kyouto. I would think that doing a Taiping thing where it doesn't exist until the actual revolt would be a good idea, though I definitely see the reasoning behind giving it a chance to prepare itself.

    You could either do that, or use substates for both JAP and a few of the more powerful daimyou. Satsuma/Choushuu/Tosa and the like - these three at least would ally with JAP when the war begins (or there would be an event allowing daimyou to choose sides, though it shouldn't be too random), and get annexed after the end of the war. You could even reuse Satsuma for the rebellion later.
    I could see a Japan where JAP owns Kyouto, maybe five or six other daimyou substates are scattered around, and TKG owns the rest. That ought to help with JAP's pre-war preparation, as the daimyou should already have some kind of capacity.

    I would think that an isolationist TKG should have a very large negative modifier to research points to start out with, which ought to eliminate the possibility of them westernising ahead of time. The westernisation should be gradual throughout the Bakumatsu event chain (...research points granted by event instead of normally? just a thought), it most certainly should not cause it.

    I would think the Commodore Perry thing should be a little less deterministic - rather than a US decision, maybe it should be an event/decision for any GP that has enough influence in Japan. (downside: convincing the AI to influence Japan, which it never does.) There should be some kind of naval tech requirement where an attempt to force Japan open fails if the requirement isn't met.

    As a side note, I would really love the option to leave the capital in Kyouto instead of move it off to Edo>Toukyou after the restoration.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sjiveru View Post
    I'm actually not sure substates work for the Bakumatsu event chain as you've got it there - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have JAP sitting around in 1836, except maybe in Kyouto. I would think that doing a Taiping thing where it doesn't exist until the actual revolt would be a good idea, though I definitely see the reasoning behind giving it a chance to prepare itself.
    I could try just doing it with cores, sure-- though that means that any armies that exist depend on what's been raised by the country already (so they split off from existing units and immediately fight) and levies. That's always dicey. I'm hesitant to add more tags just for this, though if I did the few you name would be good candidates. Still, adding OPM's just so JAP can annex them later seems a little pointless. If they were all fighting against each other, that might be different... but they're all on the same side.

    I would think the Commodore Perry thing should be a little less deterministic - rather than a US decision, maybe it should be an event/decision for any GP that has enough influence in Japan. (downside: convincing the AI to influence Japan, which it never does.) There should be some kind of naval tech requirement where an attempt to force Japan open fails if the requirement isn't met.
    The problem with any GP having "enough influence" in Japan is that there's no way to determine anything other than having the country sphered-- it'd be nice if such commands existed, but they don't. We only have a command to detect diplomatic influence, but that only detects the current number of points... and thus once a country hits 50 and goes to the next influence level, it resets.

    So any other country that spheres Japan will still get the regular "Our Master's Voice" event which can force Japan to open up. Having one for the USA is just an extra insurance, and it certainly could require a certain amount of naval tech first, yes.

    As a side note, I would really love the option to leave the capital in Kyouto instead of move it off to Edo>Toukyou after the restoration.
    You can simply not take the decision, I suppose.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I could try just doing it with cores, sure-- though that means that any armies that exist depend on what's been raised by the country already (so they split off from existing units and immediately fight) and levies. That's always dicey. I'm hesitant to add more tags just for this, though if I did the few you name would be good candidates. Still, adding OPM's just so JAP can annex them later seems a little pointless. If they were all fighting against each other, that might be different... but they're all on the same side.
    Yeah, you'd have to have some sort of mechanic to make it worthwhile. Maybe add a few other large and powerful domains (Kaga and so on), and have some way for each substate to choose which side to fight on?

    The problem with any GP having "enough influence" in Japan is that there's no way to determine anything other than having the country sphered-- it'd be nice if such commands existed, but they don't. We only have a command to detect diplomatic influence, but that only detects the current number of points... and thus once a country hits 50 and goes to the next influence level, it resets.

    So any other country that spheres Japan will still get the regular "Our Master's Voice" event which can force Japan to open up. Having one for the USA is just an extra insurance, and it certainly could require a certain amount of naval tech first, yes.
    Well, that's unfortunate then T_T
    Yeah, giving the USA (and maybe Russia, possibly also requiring them to take HaIshenwai/Primorye) a decision to do that would be the best option.


    You can simply not take the decision, I suppose.
    Well, ATM JAP's capital starts in Edo and the decision just renames it. I would assume after these changes JAP's default capital would be Kyouto, and then you could just not take the decision :P It would be nice to have some way to shut off the 'you have a decision available' notifier if you decide not to choose it, though (and even nicer if you could get the +5 life rating and big immigrant attraction in Kyouto instead of leaving it untaken :P)


    On a side note, I can add some more interesting names for JAP's political parties if you want them. (The two-tag setup will make parties a bit nicer, so you won't have silly things like 'Shougun's Faction' sitting around for a while after the restoration :P)
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sjiveru View Post
    Yeah, you'd have to have some sort of mechanic to make it worthwhile. Maybe add a few other large and powerful domains (Kaga and so on), and have some way for each substate to choose which side to fight on?
    Technically that's what Bakumatsu did, but upon checking it seems the mod had only about 1/4 of the daimyos actually choose between the sides. The only thing I could do in this regard, to make it less deterministic, would be to add some substates and then also add more events prior to the Boshin War event... with the option taken either angering one side or another and determining their likelihood of joining one side or another. Or maybe going independent, I don't know.

    It would be nice to have some way to shut off the 'you have a decision available' notifier if you decide not to choose it, though (and even nicer if you could get the +5 life rating and big immigrant attraction in Kyouto instead of leaving it untaken :P)
    The only way to do that would be to add in an alternate decision, and then have whichever one you take cancel the other out as well. Not sure that's really worthwhile. Alternatively, I could just make it an event instead.

    On a side note, I can add some more interesting names for JAP's political parties if you want them. (The two-tag setup will make parties a bit nicer, so you won't have silly things like 'Shougun's Faction' sitting around for a while after the restoration :P)
    Sure, that would be helpful.

  17. #17
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    Naselus, any preference on how you want the set-up to go? You mentioned liking the split-up of Japan into sub-states... but I'm assuming you don't want the 30+ tags that Bakumatsu added. If you do, let me know, as that's a different story. Otherwise the possibilities are:

    1) I amalgamate some of the daimyos into larger factions. Probably about 5 or 6. Then have those choose sides (or maybe their own side) when the Meiji Restoration begins. No core spread.

    2) I create an Imperial Japan substate at the beginning, covering all of southern Japan. No core spread.

    3) I create an Imperial Japan substate at the beginning, but covering only Kyoto/Osaka and the other two provinces for Satsuma & Choshu. Then have core spread which annexes the provinces into the substate.

    4) No substate at the beginning, only spreading cores as per Taiping. Secedes when/if the Meiji Restoration begins.

  18. #18
    It's entirely in your hands, Ry, I'm confident whatever you come up with will be great.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    It's entirely in your hands, Ry, I'm confident whatever you come up with will be great.
    Well, I guess the issue then is how many tags you'd be willing to add to the list. If 5 or 6 isn't too many, then #1 would be my choice.

  20. #20
    I think we can live with 5 or 6 new ones quite comfortably.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

    Creator of PDM:PoD for Heart of Darkness: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ownload-thread
    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Creator of '1792' for March of the Eagles: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...69074-1792-mod

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