Idea Collection for Axis vs Comintern Campaign

[Narfi]

well, to realy decide that u should post some details on what could be used with a historical then.
If u only allow what was around there, im afraid it would get a realy boring campaign with same decks both sides.

Personally i dont want a campaign that gets played with only inf probe decks.
I would for example say restrict doctrines like Blitz, Deep Op, maski etc. those who give a big advantage to attacker and maybe inf Probe to give the general doctrines and maybe even massiv attack a chance to get played without to much fear
Doctrines like Combined Arms, Air support etc allow for better defense layouts especially if we restrict the units to what was available during that time period (So no panther or IS-2 etc) But we still need to keep the balance over historical accuracy.

[enolc]

well, to realy decide that u should post some details on what could be used with a historical then.
If u only allow what was around there, im afraid it would get a realy boring campaign with same decks both sides.

For those who didn't follow this discussion closely, here's the general idea on the HISTORICAL restrictions.

AXIS
For Axis the only real restriction would be the absence of tanks of all kinds. All non-tank types of infantry (except for the Volksgrenadiers, but Soviets won't have any tanks either, so there's no point), artillery, other supports (evil things like 88mm and Nebel included. Nebelwerfers were actually widely used in the siege) will be allowed. All airplaines will be allowed and encouraged — the aerial side was important in the real battle.

Exceptions:
1) Some small units of StuGs were used in the battle, so I proposed that the team leader should be able to assign a hypothetical 'Self-propelled Artillery Batallion' to one of his commanders at the beginning of each turn. This batallion gives this player the ability to use Wespe cards for the duration of the turn. Why Wespe? Because StuG is a weak unit in the game and Wespe card better represents the way that StuGs were used in the actual siege.

2) If we make light divisions, light armour will be allowed for these units. I.e. M14/41 and PSW if that makes any difference.

3) Remember Romanians (let's see who'll want to play Allied decks without tanks, airplanes and Allied-only doctrines ).

COMINTERN
No tanks, including duals. A pre-set and high number of fortification/obstacle/artillery units will be required for most decks (for stationary units -- probably up to a half, for normal -- at least 10-15). No SMG and NKVD. Maybe a minor restriction in ZiS-3 numbers (say, no more than 3 per deck).

Note: Stationary divisions won't be able to use any land doctrines and victory/loss will be determined on the basis of the number of turns played in the match (e.g. if Axis don't achieve x VPs by turn 25, they lose). They probably shouldn't be allowed non-fortification/obstacle/artillery supports (primarily ZIS, Katyusha and 85mm).

REMEMBER
I propose that we first figure out the more detailed restrictions for both sides and all their units and then try them out in real decks. If they don't work, we'll make amendments.

EDIT: The new map is great.

[MeinKrieg]

I vote for a balanced and slightly ahistorical game (allow like 2-3 Heavy armor tank and some normal tanks in a deck). Here are the reasons :
- If a game is clearly unbalanced , don't expect players to join weaker side .
- If all play inf-probe , then it will be no fun game . So the game's objective to bring fun to players is not fulfilled . I want to allow a small number of heavy armor tanks and some normal tanks to make tank doctrines playable .

And i like the idea that everyone gotta have air-unit in their deck .

[Narfi]

i might be wrong, but with these restrictions i mostly see inf probe beeing used and only against staionary the axis might go for a more powerful attack with air.
Forcing Air into decks might be an option, but wouldnt that leave us with another all games the same layout more or less?

And the Romanians aka Allies? U leave them 25pdr and Engineers to kill something, all the other kill cards are restricted or useless (all those AT supports). Leaving them with a very weak probe deck as only choice.


Im not sure how u imagined the decks, i guess u wanted to leave it to each player to build those with the restrictions put upon.
How about using a predefined deckbuild for each division of like 70-80 cards and leaving the player some freedom of what he wanna drop out of those. (if anything at all)
That way u could lead the player into some diffrent playstyles without cutting out to much of everything via general restrictions.

[enolc]

I'm not saying anything about forcing airplanes into decks. But it is encouraged. Also don't forget the infiltration tactics (Soviets will use artillery and probably mines).

For Romanians, I thought we'd allow Armoured Infantry, too.

If you mean freedom to change decks within the restrictions -- sure, that's the whole point. Also, deck type is by far not the only thing that defines play style. Player defines play style.

[Narfi]

please correct me if im wrong, but in Air vs Air the Russians should have a much better chance to win due to 3 cards beeing able to kill off air in Combat phase.
Axis would have a stronger Air vs Ground deck due to HS-123 beeing easy to use with lots of Strafings. While the Comintern Air would probably struggle vs Axis Inf deck.
On the ground they are more or less equal without tanks, and the absence of tanks overall weakens air decks in general without targets for interdiction.

Romanians aka allies are slightly better with armored inf, but im still worried that commies have a rather easy game vs them. Especially if the player taking that spot does not own 5x 25pdr

[enolc]

Okay, I have put together some Comintern decks for testing:

1) Infantry. 60 cards, 18 factories. 10 obstacle/fortification units, 5 artillery units. No tanks, no SMG, Partisans, NKVD. No more than 3 ZiS-3.
2) Naval Brigade. 60 cards, 18 factories. 10 obstacle/fortification units, 5 artillery units. No tanks, no NKVD, no more than 1 Partisans. No more than 3 ZiS-3.
3) Stationary. 60 cards, 15 factories. 25 obstacle/fortification units, 5 artillery units. No non-fortification supports. No land doctrines. Tank and infantry restrictions — as in Infantry.

If anyone would build an Axis deck based on conditions mentioned above, we could test it against what I've made. Please, try to keep them within the 60-65 card limit and make two variants — with Wespe and without.

EDIT:

please correct me if im wrong, but in Air vs Air the Russians should have a much better chance to win due to 3 cards beeing able to kill off air in Combat phase.

That's right, although mind that Soviet units probably won't have too much space in their decks to exploit this.

Romanians aka allies are slightly better with armored inf, but im still worried that commies have a rather easy game vs them. Especially if the player taking that spot does not own 5x 25pdr

Well, someone's having or not having the right cards should be the issue of who gets what unit to command, but anyway, let's test Romanians first in the current conditions, if they're way too weak, we'll change them.

[Narfi]

i did build 2 axis decks with 64 cards. We can try sometime tonight.
though they feel realy weird without all those sweet PGs. Ill probably fail miserable as im used to play with the big toys

[SilentKiller]

So in historical game axis should have:
Infantry division
Jager division (light infantry)
Mountain division (Romanian)
+ airplains
?

and with restricitions proposed by M4j.Maniacal that will be:
Jager disivion= Aufklarer Group (German Only) = Must use ME, Inf probe, Infiltration, Stoss, Kessel, or command confusion. Must have at least 15 cards with the ability to swap. Cannot use heavy tanks and only 6 pure tank cards, light armor does not count towards this total. May exchange unlimited number of cards during the supply phase.

Infantry division=Infantry Division = Cannot use doctrines with required tanks as the opening doctrine and no ME, Blitz and Deep Ops. Can only have 6 pure tank cards, light armor does not count towards this total. Unlimited infantry choice but only 4 elite cards.

Mountain division (Romanian) = unlimited choice of elite cards and must have at least 15 elites + Engineers + Fallschirmjaegers in the deck.

?

[Telesma]

1) Some small units of StuGs were used in the battle, so I proposed that the team leader should be able to assign a hypothetical 'Self-propelled Artillery Batallion' to one of his commanders at the beginning of each turn. This batallion gives this player the ability to use Wespe cards for the duration of the turn. Why Wespe? Because StuG is a weak unit in the game and Wespe card better represents the way that StuGs were used in the actual siege.

See, this is exactly what kills your historical approach for me. Wespe sure is better but StuG IS NOT WEAK and could become an important asset in the campaign. Including Wespe sounds like axis will play very similar probe decks they play regularly. Representing StuGs with Wespes just because you don't like them is downright ridiculous.

I don't like banning tanks altogether because that greatly limits what people can use. I like a lot of restrictions but some possibilities to build different decks should be there. I think there should be sectors with possibilities to use tank focused decks.

So i guess i would prefer semi-historical approach.

[enolc]

Okay, what use a Tank Dam/Land Dam in battle will have against an enemy that has no tanks? 105mm is better.

I suggest Wespe cards because in-game they better represent StuGs, as used IRL, than the StuG cards. In other scenarios it may be different, but against an enemy without tanks, Stugs turn into cannon fodder. Also, I never said that all Axis players will be allowed to play Wespe anyway.

There are plenty of possibilities, artillery decks, air decks, infantry decks. People, this is not a tournament, there's no need to itch for the most efficient deck.

[Narfi]

Arty decks are only possible with the wespe though, other arty builds would be pretty weak due to missing doctrine like fire sup. (well maski might work)

And dont underestimate the Stug, it does only damage yes, but the stuck would also mean u can build a deck around CA/ME and reach the nice combat phase stack of effects with MG, 88mm/nebel and the Stug.
Clearly Wespe is stronger and gives more options especially with the swap, but dont underestimate the Stug


And in the end ppl would want to win, and although air/arty might be playable options, i wouldnt be suprised if many would go down to the simple and save inf probe as it is a proved to be effective deck that doesnt need as much luck as other builds do for the draws.

[enolc]

Maski with two Massed Guns is über-death in arty phase.

Well, sure we can try StuGs out, if they work out alright, it's fine by me -- I suggested this concept of an additional unit granted by the team leader to make axis a little stronger and allow more role-play ('your commander thinks your unit's success is crucial on this stage of battle, so you get more candy this time').

[Telesma]

I still don't see any reason why not use Pz IIIs, Pz IVs or T-26s and T-34s at all. Campaign battles should differ not only from casual/h2h but also from each other.

[nymet260]

Okay, what use a Tank Dam/Land Dam in battle will have against an enemy that has no tanks? 105mm is better.
There are plenty of possibilities, artillery decks, air decks, infantry decks. People, this is not a tournament, there's no need to itch for the most efficient deck.

Ofc we dont care if we have an efficient deck we are all going to have unique division types so we all have different setups. btw Stug is good vs dual units on the attack when combined with a kill unit, the only problem being the Russians lack dual units so the Stug is pretty sucky. The Russians also benefit from infantry only decks, they have a lot of cards that can easily pump em up in that area (Maski; Massive wave; Massed guns; Partisans; easy to get Katyushas; Zis-3's; NVDK) On top of the fact the Russian air force is about 2x better then the axis one, PE-2 is great even in runway cratering vs aircraft, Il2 is the 2nd best bomber in the game, Tu-2 best bomber in the game + the cheap Tu-SB for rapid runway. And all the Axis has to show for it is Stukas, and HE's with the Kannonbird only good vs tank decks not to mention the russians have more fighters then the axis.

The main selling point of the axis is tanks, you take away tanks and put em up vs the best infantry faction they are bound to get butt hurt 75-80% of the time. So yea sure limit heavies as I dont care for em, make the lightweight tanks useful (PZIII's + T70's The women love T70's)

[Telesma]

Yeah, if anything needs expansion, it is Luftwaffe.

Luckily T-70s went into production just three months before Sevastopol, so they can make nice straight-out-of-a-factory reinforcements to be shipped in later turns.

The only heavy tank I can see making appearance is KV (heavily limited in numbers of course).

[M4j. Maniacal]

So in historical game axis should have:
Infantry division
Jager division (light infantry)
Mountain division (Romanian)
+ airplains
?

and with restricitions proposed by M4j.Maniacal that will be:
Jager disivion= Aufklarer Group (German Only) = Must use ME, Inf probe, Infiltration, Stoss, Kessel, or command confusion. Must have at least 15 cards with the ability to swap. Cannot use heavy tanks and only 6 pure tank cards, light armor does not count towards this total. May exchange unlimited number of cards during the supply phase.

Infantry division=Infantry Division = Cannot use doctrines with required tanks as the opening doctrine and no ME, Blitz and Deep Ops. Can only have 6 pure tank cards, light armor does not count towards this total. Unlimited infantry choice but only 4 elite cards.

Mountain division (Romanian) = unlimited choice of elite cards and must have at least 15 elites + Engineers + Fallschirmjaegers in the deck.

?

Is your point that the restrictions are similar? Or that we could use the restrictions I put forth for enolcs idea?

[enolc]

Ofc we dont care if we have an efficient deck we are all going to have unique division types so we all have different setups. btw Stug is good vs dual units on the attack when combined with a kill unit, the only problem being the Russians lack dual units so the Stug is pretty sucky. The Russians also benefit from infantry only decks, they have a lot of cards that can easily pump em up in that area (Maski; Massive wave; Massed guns; Partisans; easy to get Katyushas; Zis-3's; NVDK) On top of the fact the Russian air force is about 2x better then the axis one, PE-2 is great even in runway cratering vs aircraft, Il2 is the 2nd best bomber in the game, Tu-2 best bomber in the game + the cheap Tu-SB for rapid runway. And all the Axis has to show for it is Stukas, and HE's with the Kannonbird only good vs tank decks not to mention the russians have more fighters then the axis.

The main selling point of the axis is tanks, you take away tanks and put em up vs the best infantry faction they are bound to get butt hurt 75-80% of the time. So yea sure limit heavies as I dont care for em, make the lightweight tanks useful (PZIII's + T70's The women love T70's)

Oh, poore axes wont get there toffees! Please, read what I say about the Comintern before blithering about Axis' getting pain in their arses.

[enolc]

Yeah, if anything needs expansion, it is Luftwaffe.

Luckily T-70s went into production just three months before Sevastopol, so they can make nice straight-out-of-a-factory reinforcements to be shipped in later turns.

The only heavy tank I can see making appearance is KV (heavily limited in numbers of course).

Do you realise you contradict yourself? Or is it 'any restrictions are fine so long as they are my restrictions'?

What I suggest is to make the in-game unit make-up for this campaign as close as possible to what it really was. When it came to tanks, there were none on the Soviet side and there were a limited number of SP Artillery on the Axis side, period.

[Dugrim]

Ok I have 2 decks ready and 1 in "standby"

1. 60 cards, 15 factories, no Wespe, no tanks, Inf - Sup only
2. 60 cards, 17 factories, Wespe, no other tanks.