(MOD) Occultus Orbis Terrestre

[videonfan]

Atlantian should be of byzantine subgroup or if you don't want weird results a seperate greek culture

[TheDarkMaster]

Played around with the mod for awhile, here are a few preliminary thoughts:

-There is a slightly annoying lack of religious decisions for the new religions.
-I noticed a bug with the new Atlantis territories, the South West Island is missing a port.
-I read about a mod awhile back that added pre-existing colonies to the new world, specifically Vinland (which actually almost got off the ground), a Roman colony in South America established by a trireme that got off course, and a Chinese colony on the West coast of North America. Here is a link to the mod: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...-New-World-Mod
-It is a bit odd that nations with better tech then Western tech can Westernize, isn't it? Maybe there should be a reverse, where a nation can take on the tech of Atlantis for example?
-You're using the Death and Taxes tech reduction stuff that allow for 100+% tech reductions.
-The manpower of the new nations is absolutely atrocious, one province minors in Europe can easily field much larger armies.
-The mini-map has not been updated with the new continents, do you plan on doing that?
-Rather then having religions have mods to stability %, I think you should just stick with the base stab cost. If you want a religion to be less stable, have its base 30-40, if you want it to be more stable, have the base 10-20.
-What happened to the Japanese Shinto Religion?

[MrTaxman]

I love this but while looking around I already found a bug, Switzerland is completely cultureless (noculture).

Just fixed for next version. Thanks!

[MrTaxman]

Yeah, you may want to consider something like China's Celestial Empire, as Prester John's kingdom without Prester John and/or his descendents wouldn't really be anything.

I'll definitely consider it... but I'm much better at graphical mods than at the "programming" side of EUIII. If I have time I'll play around with it to try to get something like that into place. No promises!

I once modded PJ's kingdom into EU3, so I learned quite a bit about it. If you don't have a flag for his kingdom, I'd recommend looking at this. I'm not a huge fan of white flags, so I'd take that one and play around with it for a bit.

I think I will include (a version of) that flag, I like it better. Any color combo suggestions?

If you're into redrawing the map, you should also consider redrawing Australia to match what 19th century explorers thought it would look like. See here. They thought there was a large inland sea, as well as a complex river system that created a very fertile and habitable core.

I rather like that old map... I'll definitely consider making those changes... when I get some more time

[MrTaxman]

Atlantian should be of byzantine subgroup or if you don't want weird results a seperate greek culture

Thanks for the input.
I did consider making it a Greek sub-culture... but I decided to synthesize it from lots of cultures. Yes, the Atlantean provinces are named in Greek, but other aspects of "Atlantean" culture are derived from other cultures. I didn't feel like a Greek island in the middle of the Atlantic would be appropriate. I though that having a completely separate culture (as they would have lost contact with Europe, gone savage and had a return to culture after the cataclysm) was more applicable in the scenario.

[MrTaxman]

-There is a slightly annoying lack of religious decisions for the new religions.

Haven't added anything of the sort yet (no time to do so) - you're welcome to submit some and I'd include them!

-I noticed a bug with the new Atlantis territories, the South West Island is missing a port.

I'll check on that and try to fix it.

-I read about a mod awhile back that added pre-existing colonies to the new world, specifically Vinland (which actually almost got off the ground), a Roman colony in South America established by a trireme that got off course, and a Chinese colony on the West coast of North America. Here is a link to the mod: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...-New-World-Mod

I'll check that out.

-It is a bit odd that nations with better tech then Western tech can Westernize, isn't it? Maybe there should be a reverse, where a nation can take on the tech of Atlantis for example?

Lack of 'programming' skills, otherwise, sure.

-You're using the Death and Taxes tech reduction stuff that allow for 100+% tech reductions.

Honestly, I'm not sure where or how this affects the game. If you've got some fixes, send 'em on, I'll include them.

-The manpower of the new nations is absolutely atrocious, one province minors in Europe can easily field much larger armies.

I didn't want to give the new nations much, as some of the new tech groups are very powerful, and I didn't want them to be overpowered. Which areas do you think really need more manpower?

-The mini-map has not been updated with the new continents, do you plan on doing that?

As I said in the intro post, I want to get that changed, but I can't make it change. Any thoughts?

-Rather then having religions have mods to stability %, I think you should just stick with the base stab cost. If you want a religion to be less stable, have its base 30-40, if you want it to be more stable, have the base 10-20.

I used dharper's religion mod, and I modeled my new religions off his in-mod existing ones. To tell the truth, I'm weak in the 'programming' portion, so I'm not completely sure what each piece does. I'd love more input.

-What happened to the Japanese Shinto Religion?

dharper calls it Mahayana Buddhism, and I used his religion mod. If you read about Mahayana it could easily encompass Shinto. "Chinese Taoist and Japanese Shinto deities were assimilated into Mahayana Buddhism as "Deva" class beings" from here

BTW: Thank you for your great critiques - I appreciate the opportunity to improve the mod.

[MrTaxman]

I once modded PJ's kingdom into EU3, so I learned quite a bit about it. If you don't have a flag for his kingdom, I'd recommend looking at this. I'm not a huge fan of white flags, so I'd take that one and play around with it for a bit.

PJL.jpg
How about this?

[ZomgK3tchup]

Attachment 49559
How about this?

That one is slightly low quality. Here's two alternatives if you'd like. The first uses red on gold, as per the modern Ethiopian Church (which based their heraldry on Prester John's cross) and then a white and black one, as is described in the legend.

Click here.

I definitely like this idea. If you need help with anything (modding, ideas, etc,) feel free to ask.

[TheDarkMaster]

I'm not terribly familiar with the legends surrounding these places, so I can't really give too much in the way of suggestions surrounding that stuff. I also can't really help you with coding for the game, since I've never looked at the guts of it. There are probably tutorials for the programming stuff in the forums that you could find by using the search mechanic. I'll just leave off those responses for now.

Honestly, I'm not sure where or how this affects the game. If you've got some fixes, send 'em on, I'll include them.

Awhile back someone pointed out that you could get such high tech reductions in Death and Taxes so that you could end up with negative tech costs, allowing a nation to get all of the tech levels very quickly. The newer versions of Death and Taxes reduce the tech reductions for the sliders and advisers to avoid this problem.

I didn't want to give the new nations much, as some of the new tech groups are very powerful, and I didn't want them to be overpowered. Which areas do you think really need more manpower?

How about I start off talking about Atlantis, so that I can avoid starting new games every time I want to check the variables/values in the provinces. The more I think about it, the more I think that the whole of the nation may need some tweaks and changes. How about we start off with this question: what sort of Atlantis do you want the Europeans to encounter in the game? Are you looking for a broken shell of a once proud nation, or are you looking for more of a powerful and advanced reclusive nation? Do you want there to be a possibility of Atlantis suddenly reemerging from the West to appear before the Europeans once more? If you like the idea of all these things being possible, I could help you work out a system to make it happen. I can also much more easily figure out what kind of stats the Atlantian provinces should have based on this information.

I used dharper's religion mod, and I modeled my new religions off his in-mod existing ones. To tell the truth, I'm weak in the 'programming' portion, so I'm not completely sure what each piece does. I'd love more input.

Like I said, I'm not necessarily familiar with all the nuts and bolts of the code, but I can tell you that you should look at the total list of the effects of your religions, and you should see the two different stability effects I was talking about.

[Bear_Sheba]

This looks incredible

[MrTaxman]

How about I start off talking about Atlantis, so that I can avoid starting new games every time I want to check the variables/values in the provinces. The more I think about it, the more I think that the whole of the nation may need some tweaks and changes. How about we start off with this question: what sort of Atlantis do you want the Europeans to encounter in the game? Are you looking for a broken shell of a once proud nation, or are you looking for more of a powerful and advanced reclusive nation? Do you want there to be a possibility of Atlantis suddenly reemerging from the West to appear before the Europeans once more? If you like the idea of all these things being possible, I could help you work out a system to make it happen. I can also much more easily figure out what kind of stats the Atlantian provinces should have based on this information.

The OOT Atlantis is a fragmented empire (i.e a broken shell of a once proud nation), but the ideas still remain in the inheritor states. I wanted to leave it open for the inheritor states to either play nice and find strong Europeans bearing down on them, or for one of those inheritors to crush the others and consolidate (there is a decision that resurrects Atlantis). They may then go on their merry way and smack some Euro-hinders.

So I suppose I'm saying that, aside from the (unintentionally) nerfed manpower, I meant for Atlanteans to be as they are. If you think of any changes, I'm happy to discuss them. What should the avg manpower be per province, so as to be relatively equal to the europeans?

[MrTaxman]

This looks incredible

Thanks

[MrTaxman]

That one is slightly low quality. Here's two alternatives if you'd like. The first uses red on gold, as per the modern Ethiopian Church (which based their heraldry on Prester John's cross) and then a white and black one, as is described in the legend.

Click here.

I just whipped together the black and yellow as an example (explaining away the low quality), but I definitely like your red and gold better. It shall be included.

[Bear_Sheba]

Just tried this out quickly, love this sort of stuff. Comments:

1) I thought that this mod would exclude Americas, since many of these rumours were actually mis-intepretations of reports of new land. Brasil Island was the original name of Newfoundland, and bristol traders claimed to have reached this for centuries before Cabot.

2) I read a book that spoke about what early explorers were expecting, and it included a very weird version of Japan. This Japan was ruled by a mighty Khan and was a major power in the East. It might be cool to adapt Japan to the European fable-land. Cipangu

3) If you excluded America it would give you heaps of space to add or move your new lands. It would also change the game in the age of colonialism, as you COULD circumnavigate the globe. Mighty Japan may even begin interfering in European politics after contact.

[MrTaxman]

Just tried this out quickly, love this sort of stuff. Comments:

1) I thought that this mod would exclude Americas, since many of these rumours were actually mis-intepretations of reports of new land. Brasil Island was the original name of Newfoundland, and bristol traders claimed to have reached this for centuries before Cabot.

2) I read a book that spoke about what early explorers were expecting, and it included a very weird version of Japan. This Japan was ruled by a mighty Khan and was a major power in the East. It might be cool to adapt Japan to the European fable-land. Cipangu

3) If you excluded America it would give you heaps of space to add or move your new lands. It would also change the game in the age of colonialism, as you COULD circumnavigate the globe. Mighty Japan may even begin interfering in European politics after contact.

1) I wanted some 'ideas' about the New World and other continents/lands to be right.

2) I liked Chatnoir17's Japan and wanted to include all those lovely daimyos

3) I had seriously considered doing 3, but decided that ripping out/reformatting that many provinces was going to be an *INSANE* amount of work.

[TheDarkMaster]

The OOT Atlantis is a fragmented empire (i.e a broken shell of a once proud nation), but the ideas still remain in the inheritor states. I wanted to leave it open for the inheritor states to either play nice and find strong Europeans bearing down on them, or for one of those inheritors to crush the others and consolidate (there is a decision that resurrects Atlantis). They may then go on their merry way and smack some Euro-hinders.

So I suppose I'm saying that, aside from the (unintentionally) nerfed manpower, I meant for Atlanteans to be as they are. If you think of any changes, I'm happy to discuss them. What should the avg manpower be per province, so as to be relatively equal to the europeans?

Well, there are a few things to consider first:
1) They can't trade. Since there aren't any other nations around that they can trade with, they're out that source of income. Since there really aren't any valuable trade resources produced in Atlantis, the one COT that they do have isn't very valuable, and could actually collapse over time.
2) They can't expand. Outside the 16 Atlantian provinces and the Azores that they have vision of at the start of the game, Atlantis cannot expand anywhere until they have QftNW.
3) They have their own tech group, that means no neighbor bonus. This will hold back their tech severely.
4) They do not start out with an infrastructure already established; all the European nations start with all the tier 1 buildings already made, these guys don't.

Thanks to these things, they aren't going to be able to compete with any of the major European powers without some serious edge.


Now with the actual stats of the provinces. I'll copy down some of their key stats and compare them to some of the starting European nations that don't take too long to add up.

Link to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2bGY2anc#gid=0

Notes:
-in death and taxes, Portugal and Castile are the first two nations to begin colonizing. It is likely for England and France to follow after that, and they are generally much larger at that point then they are at the start.
-It looks like population is generally very closely associated with manpower and base tax. IE, the higher the population is, the higher the base tax generally is.
-Usually the province with the highest base tax, population, and manpower is the capital. Most of the European capitals seem to have manpower scores in excess of 1000.

Recommendations on values:
-Increase the base tax of most of the Atlantian provinces, they're suppose to be highly valuable, right? These could actually be a fair bit higher then a lot of the European provinces, how about an average of 10-12 across the nation? This would also give the European nations a very big incentive to actually try and conquer these guys.
-Raise the base manpower of the provinces, the provinces should have manpowers about 8-12% of the total population. I'd go for an average of how about 1000 across the whole of Atlantis.
-Make sure each capital is that nation's province with the highest population and manpower. It should probably also have the highest base tax. This is generally what the capital attracts.
-How about adding some established infrastructure to the provinces so they don't have to build all the buildings themselves?


I have a few thoughts on the government and slider set up, but how you tell me what you think of what I brought up here, and then go to that later?

[Azog]

If you plan to expand it more how about a few more legendary lands like Antillia, Estotiland, St. Brendan's Island or Hy-Brasil? All those are in the Atlantic so might be too crowded for all of them of course. Perhaps look into some of the thought to exist Pacific Islands also. Were quite a few of them claimed to be around also. If you are interested I can try to find some names and claimed locations for a few.

[MrTaxman]

Well, there are a few things to consider first:
1) They can't trade. Since there aren't any other nations around that they can trade with, they're out that source of income. Since there really aren't any valuable trade resources produced in Atlantis, the one COT that they do have isn't very valuable, and could actually collapse over time.
2) They can't expand. Outside the 16 Atlantian provinces and the Azores that they have vision of at the start of the game, Atlantis cannot expand anywhere until they have QftNW.
3) They have their own tech group, that means no neighbor bonus. This will hold back their tech severely.
4) They do not start out with an infrastructure already established; all the European nations start with all the tier 1 buildings already made, these guys don't.

Thanks to these things, they aren't going to be able to compete with any of the major European powers without some serious edge.


Now with the actual stats of the provinces. I'll copy down some of their key stats and compare them to some of the starting European nations that don't take too long to add up.

Link to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2bGY2anc#gid=0

Notes:
-in death and taxes, Portugal and Castile are the first two nations to begin colonizing. It is likely for England and France to follow after that, and they are generally much larger at that point then they are at the start.
-It looks like population is generally very closely associated with manpower and base tax. IE, the higher the population is, the higher the base tax generally is.
-Usually the province with the highest base tax, population, and manpower is the capital. Most of the European capitals seem to have manpower scores in excess of 1000.

Recommendations on values:
-Increase the base tax of most of the Atlantian provinces, they're suppose to be highly valuable, right? These could actually be a fair bit higher then a lot of the European provinces, how about an average of 10-12 across the nation? This would also give the European nations a very big incentive to actually try and conquer these guys.
-Raise the base manpower of the provinces, the provinces should have manpowers about 8-12% of the total population. I'd go for an average of how about 1000 across the whole of Atlantis.
-Make sure each capital is that nation's province with the highest population and manpower. It should probably also have the highest base tax. This is generally what the capital attracts.
-How about adding some established infrastructure to the provinces so they don't have to build all the buildings themselves?


I have a few thoughts on the government and slider set up, but how you tell me what you think of what I brought up here, and then go to that later?

Good analysis, and well appreciated.

I have gone through and made many of the changes you've suggested (even including the other added provinces too, to a lesser extent). Let me know what you think when I release the next version.

I didn't do much with the gov or sliders, as I haven't finalized what govs, etc each nation should have. So any input is, again, greatly appreciated!

[MrTaxman]

If you plan to expand it more how about a few more legendary lands like Antillia, Estotiland, St. Brendan's Island or Hy-Brasil? All those are in the Atlantic so might be too crowded for all of them of course. Perhaps look into some of the thought to exist Pacific Islands also. Were quite a few of them claimed to be around also. If you are interested I can try to find some names and claimed locations for a few.

My understanding is that Hy-Brasil and Brasil Island are one and the same.

I think Antillia would be a good addition, but Estotiland is just another name for Newfoundland. I haven't heard of St. Brendan's Island, so I'll have to look into that. Before I get around to adding any other provinces, I'd like to eliminate this pesky CTD bug... I'm pretty sure it's an event that's firing, but I could be wrong. Oh the woes of combining mods!

[TheDarkMaster]

Good analysis, and well appreciated.

I have gone through and made many of the changes you've suggested (even including the other added provinces too, to a lesser extent). Let me know what you think when I release the next version.

I didn't do much with the gov or sliders, as I haven't finalized what govs, etc each nation should have. So any input is, again, greatly appreciated!

Okay then, here are my thoughts and the idea I came up with for Atlantis. The nation collapsed from a cataclysm well before Kingdoms or Christianity ever came into existence, so I don't think a kingdom is a good form of government for them. I was thinking that maybe a form of republic city states or bickering war lords would be a better system. If you want to have them still be relatively disorganized and unlikely to unite with each other, I think a unique government that reflects these similar to Khanates would be highly suitable while the nation is broken up. Once it reforms, I think an event could fire that lets the nation adopt either an Imperial government (Empire) or the old republic (either a noble republic, or the most basic republic government). This decision could also have another effect on the nation that I'll get to.

The starting slider positions are very odd for a nation that is in a weakened, fragmented state. I'd think the people would be quite narrowminded after a large nation collapse, and would likely not have too much in the way of freedoms if they're in a fragmented warlord state. I suggest starting sliders that are high on narrowminded, serfdom, and about zero on decentralization. They probably aren't going to be all that naval minded at the start either, since they're primary concern is going to be their three neighbors. If you do make a custom warlord government for them, I would suggest limits on no less then 0 decentralized, 2 narrowminded, 2 serfdom.

This set up would make it very clear that Atlantis is a hollowed out shell of its former glory. Now to show how they can reattain their old glory.

Once one of the nations owns all 16 (14-15 should be fine too) of the Atlantian provinces, then they can reunify the nation and become Atlantis. This immediately grants two points of centralization, a few more into navy (enough to push them from their starting point to 0-1 navy), and gives the nation the "Atlantis Reborn" status and fires the "Government starts again" event. This event allows the unify-er to chose if they want to become an Empire, or a republic; freeing them from the old restrictive government. Choosing to become a republic again would give a bunch of innovative and free subject slider changes (how about 3 of each?) that would put the nation closer to the intellectual and enlightened land of legend. Becoming an empire on the other hand, could give them a few explorers and a conquistador or two so that they can start exploring the world and seek out new lands to settle and conquer right away. The "Atlantis Reborn" status could add fairly sizable tech investments to give them a bit of a tech edge against the Europeans, I'm thinking maybe 200 to all 5 for about 2-3 years.

Now you have the powerful and advanced nation for the Europeans to encounter, or see riding the waves to their own shores. What do you think of that idea?


Finally, I had two other thoughts. First, maybe you want to throw down a few manufacturies onto Atlantis? Several of the provinces in Europe start with Universities built, so maybe there could be a few in Atlantis? The other is that holding such a legendary place would be a pretty big deal for any nation, wouldn't it? So how about a triggered modifier called something like "The glory of Atlantis!" and you get it for having 14-16 of the Atlantis provinces. It gives +1 to yearly prestige, +1.5 to yearly cultural tradition, and -2 to naval attrition; to represent the center of cultural learning that the place is, the weight of the statement that that nation owns/is Atlantis, and the value of Atlantian seamanship. What do you think?