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Reconsidering the Papal Election

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This could be (roughly) modded in. All you'd need to do is create a bunch of titular cardinals, make the Papacy a feudal-elective title, and add a bunch of events and decisions and things to distribute the cardinal titles. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be better than nothing.

AllThat4Nothing said:
"incorrect."

"uh, no" (you and I both know how that sounds, I don't like it when people do that in person and that was the way you intended it).

that's attitude.

and yes it IS outside the scope of this game. everything papal is ABSTRACTED because your DYNASTY is the main thing.
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And acquiring the Papacy is one hell of a way of improving the standing of your dynasty.
 
blue sam3 said:
This could be (roughly) modded in. All you'd need to do is create a bunch of titular cardinals, make the Papacy a feudal-elective title, and add a bunch of events and decisions and things to distribute the cardinal titles. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be better than nothing.
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That's a good idea- I might just try it.
 
Well- that was one waste of time:D. I added some titular archbishops for the catholic church and changed the papal elections to feudal-agnatic (compared to open-agnatic as was before). It seemed fine until the popes started inheriting the archbishoprics and finally changing the laws back to open-agnatic. I have no idea how to work around it. I guess to make the whole papal structure more realistic you would have to create another area-based structure that would work beside the feudal one. I'd appreciate if Paradox would do something about those elections though.
 
Building a proper elective system for the Papacy would be hard - the tools aren't in the engine for it as far as I can tell.

I've had some success with just building a "papal death clock" with some events. Basically the Pope just gets killed off every 8 years on the average, so I see lots of short-lived Popes as happened in real history. Problem is that they still tend to be young men with weird traits, but I think my next attempt will involve using the create_character effect so I get appropriately popely characters.
 
I would love for an official DLC including Church politics.

I would also like it if Popes had decent regnal names.
 
AllThat4Nothing said:
it's not that difficult getting the pope's opinion of you up.


papal elections lie outside the scope of this game, that is my argument. and why are you getting an attitude? don't like what I'm saying in a different thread? well this isn't that thread. now please be more civil. thank you.

and cardinals become popes, not priests. paradox would need to implement a cardinal system so that your faction would actually have a cardinal to support.

maybe it works and is fun in other games (MTW2), but this isn't any of those games.
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Actually, any Bishop can be Pope. The only thing special about a Cardinal is that they can vote in a papal election and wear cool red clothes.
 
Mazza said:
I would love for an official DLC including Church politics.

I would also like it if Popes had decent regnal names.
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Second that... ;)

James The 1st said:
Actually, any Bishop can be Pope. The only thing special about a Cardinal is that they can vote in a papal election and wear cool red clothes.
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Well Cardinalate could be a trait given to various bishops or clergymen so these characters would have more chances to get elected...
 
I totally agree with this thread. The Pope has such a great role in medieval history, he should be elected from existing bishops or cardinals (the trait idea is awesome), adding a lot of family prestige to his dynasty (baronny is 1 point, county 5, duchy 10, kingdom 20, empire 40, papacy should be like 50 points, with some points for caliphs and patriarchs too) and not just randomly created with a generated and non-existent dynasty. It could add new gameplay features like 'I want my son to be Pope' and we'd have to make a perfect education for him to be legitimate (if he's got lustful, cynical, or other traits he can't be eligible, still he can gain them after being Pope, but theorically Pope has to be an Holy man). I would very enjoy this feature in upcoming patches or DLC, and if the College of Cardinals should be created, why not a DLC with both Theocracies and Republics playables, because Papacy will require election system as well as republic, with some differences of course but still I guess it could be done.
 
Well I for one want this system and an expansion of how churches work within Kingdoms, Archbishops and Monastic events. Better simulation that your typical ruler would have taken an immense interest in the church, some kings wrote books about it.
As it stands Medieval II, which is a war game as oppose to one with "Crusader" in the title has a better Papal system. tut tut tut.
We can have Papal legates, advanced events if a ruler is ex-com, a college of cardinals, Papal interaction with creating certain titles, real pious kings and bags of immersion.


+1 Great idea, should be next patch/dlc
 
Mazza said:
I would love for an official DLC including Church politics.

I would also like it if Popes had decent regnal names.
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You can do the second part right now.
 
The best way would likely be for a bishop to be elected - for a simple system, let the one with the most piety be elected.
A newly elected pope would leave his former post in the same manner as if he had died (so that there would be a successor to his title).
 
Great idea, I'd love to see this as the next DLC.

Hawkeye1489 said:
While I am all for a College of Cardinal system for the election of the Pope, the problem here is that In Nomini Domine limited the actual voting electors to the 7 Suburbican Sees of Rome. Voting by the whole College (Cardinal-Bishops, Cardinal-Priests & Cardinal-Deacons) didn't occur until the late 1100s. Unfortunately, the Cardinal System we think is Medieval is actually more Renaissance. Even in this period it was rare to find a Pope that was from outside of the Roman Province let alone outside of Italy. These Cardinals were actual Bishops, Priests or Deacons of their churches/dioceses in Rome, not just titular holders like they are now.
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A good point, but I think it's remedied easily enough. You could start out with a rule that the Pope starts with seven cardinals in his court and only names new cardinals to replace them. Then there could be an event that widens the college to non-Romans but still keeps those Roman seven to preserve the Italian domination of the papacy. It could change in the same way realm laws change, but with different people having to give consent (all Catholic Kings? All bishops?) I think it could add a lot to the game.
 
Here's a fun exercise: load up the 1337 scenario, go to the Papacy and click its History button. The vast majority of popes between 1066 and 1337 were Italian nobodies; at least in game terms. A lot haven't even been given a family, just a lone pope in their dynasty screen. The ones that do have noteworthy dynasties, like the Visconti pope Gregory X, lived before that dynasty became famous.

Whether it's fun or not is another discussion entirely, but a random Italian becoming pope is a far more historically accurate simulation than what CKI had. Personally, I think the papacy has more problems in CKII with its means of influence than with its internal mechanics. You could remove the pope from the game design and it wouldn't be a significant detriment, which is a tad odd for a game about high medieval grand politics. For example, they do not, in my experience, put a check on powerful emperors. The investiture, by contrast, is a bit more in-depth and has real life benefits and drawbacks, but it's completely pointless and a needless complexity because it simply doesn't have much effect. I'd hate for the papacy to be the same.
 
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