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Thread: Reconsidering the Papal Election

  1. #41
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calbrenar View Post
    I still don't see why there couldn't be a college of cardinals based on the top x most pius guys and the game just does an algorithm where it finds the person they all respect the most and elects him pope.
    well i see your point there. it could work.
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  2. #42
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    Yeah it doesn't seem like implementing it would be a big deal. The only real question is who's eligible to be an elector and who's eligible to be elected. Maybe the top 20-30 bishops (approximate size for the time period), where "top" is done first by rank (so a bishop-prince would outrank a bishop) then, by reign length (seniority), then by Learning stat.

    Who's eligible to be elected Pope is actually a much trickier issue. Layman could be elected pope (and at least one was, to my knowledge, John XIX) and would just be ordained before taking office as Pope. So it's actually kind of arguable that the "cardinals" should be able to elect any Catholic man as Pope... but I think for purposes of the game it'd be fine if they just elected one amongst themselves.

  3. #43
    I was a little disappointed when I played as the Count of Orvieto and found that there was little I could do to influence the papal elections, as I was actually wanting to basically re-enact the Rule of the Harlots (Pornocracy) mentioned earlier. But I can see why they didn't focus on it on the core game.

    However, being able to get people in your family uplifted to positions in the clergy very much fits into the dynastic aspect of the game, in my opinion, even if it's not core. It was common for second or third sons to be encouraged to take up such a career in order to protect the inheritance and gain alliances with the Church. It is not essential to gameplay, for certain, but it would enhance it as an add-on.

    As far as modding it in (as opposed to waiting for a DLC), the matter of a titular duchy is a bit antsy because you cannot have two lieges and that means Cardinals would be sworn to the Church, which would result in the Papacy (or Ecumenical Patriarchy) scooping up Prince-Bishoprics across the map. This is more a question for the modding forum, but I wonder if an event can be triggered for all Cardinals for the election.

    In the idea of simplicity, we have a decision for the Pope to name a Bishop or other ecclesiastical character (the game files have a "priest" modifier so that helps it along) as a Cardinal. Making this trigger for the AI may be a bit tricky, but it would increase relations between the two and give a prestige/piety bonus to the Cardinal. A decision like asking for a papal indulgence can be added for a ruler to nominate their court chaplain as a Cardinal (increasing relations between ruler/pope or decreasing them if the request is denied, probably requiring an amount of gold and piety as well), and one can add an ambition for priestly characters to become a Cardinal (with an associated event tree where they request the Pope to give them the cardinalate.)

    Then, whenever a pope dies, there's a series of events wherein three candidates are chosen from the pool of cardinals: the one with the highest piety, the one with the highest prestige, and the one with the highest gold. Each of the options gives a bonus to the related trait (the voting cardinal thus gains piety, prestige, or gold from his choice), and represents the different reasons the College would support one of the candidates. The votes are counted and in theory the pope chosen from the one with the most support.

    I don't even know if it's possible for a leader to be chosen via event like this, or if an event can be coded to "count" votes, but on paper it sounds simple. The key is to keep it simple in the basic setup, stuff like interregnum might overcomplicate it (as I don't think a leaderless state is quite possible with the game as-is).

  4. #44
    About the Prince-Bihopriocs issue, It's probably possible to have the freshly elected pope giving up his previous titles and causing a normal bishopric succession for those holdings.

  5. #45
    That would be ideal, if only to avoid little Papacies appearing all over the map.

  6. #46
    First Lieutenant vwclaymore's Avatar
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    I think we should have a set number of cardinals (appointed by the Pope based on his relations with those holding bishoprics and their lieges, and the canidates piety). Once the Pope dies, the cardinals elect a new Pope based on their relationships with the possible canidates and the canidates piety (among other cardinals and maybe some of the top bishops). Possible you could get events of canidates asking that you support their bid for Pope with a monetary contribution (which would give a permanent relations boost) or a cardinal who is your liege asks for your advice on who to support depending on how much he likes you or his traits. Any holdings vacated by the newly elected Pope stay within their realm and are inherited as if the previous holder died. I would be very happy with that and it would provide more opportunity to have dynamic relations with the Pope.

  7. #47
    Augustus of the North DreadLindwyrm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    exactly.

    MTW2, which I happen to also enjoy as you do, does do it well, and it's an aspect of that game I enjoy. But it works because it goes along with the framework of the game. I don't think the same can be said for CKII. CKII is about dynasty, dynasty, dynasty, even above territory. all things papal were made abstract becaue it's outside the scope.
    So you don't think it benefits the dynasty to be able to place your son/cousin/uncle on the Papal Throne? Being able to influence such things then could allow you to more easily get certain benefits from the Pope (better relations since at least in theory you'd get the "same dynasty" modifier - could lead to reduced costs for divorce/invasion/excommunication, and possibly protection from these last two).
    *This space deliberately left blank*

  8. #48
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    Election in church, christian one, has been more about politics than anything else.
    Virtue ever only a un-draw factor, especialy if you consider the actual line of popes Are a line of usurpers since Avignon popes.
    The anti Avigon pope wasn t even elected he was put on power by peasant revolts who wanted an italian pope, and they put the most popular one on it.

    But a college of cardinal were election is based on a serie of factors would be awesone.

    Could be something like:
    Becoming a cardinal, must be bishop:
    Average of Knowledge and Diplomacy
    untie:
    Average of personal prestige and Piety
    untie:
    Sum of 0.1 to each dinasty prestige point +1 point for evey virtue trait, and -1 to every sin trait + .1 to every gold donated to church by dinasty

    Same rules can be applied to pope alection among cardinal or a mix
    Apart from list of existing bishops that the game would have to compile i don t think this would be too hard to implement, or would it ? No idea.
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  9. #49
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    I really do agree with this idea, i would love to have my son as pope
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreadLindwyrm View Post
    So you don't think it benefits the dynasty to be able to place your son/cousin/uncle on the Papal Throne? Being able to influence such things then could allow you to more easily get certain benefits from the Pope (better relations since at least in theory you'd get the "same dynasty" modifier - could lead to reduced costs for divorce/invasion/excommunication, and possibly protection from these last two).
    i stated earlier i see the point and thought it could work
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by emperorj90 View Post
    I really do agree with this idea, i would love to have my son as pope
    LOL, you would probably have bought the farm before it happens.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    this isn't "Papal Election Kings 2" or "College of Cardinals 2." It's "Crusader Kings 2."
    That's true.
    But, maybe I can't forget that the Pope who calls for Crusade...
    The last game I made, popes were often ridiculous teenagers: these "elections" seem to forget the Gregorian Reform period.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    The papal system need not be logical or accurate.
    It's your point of view.
    Please, note I didn't say that I think the election mechanism need to be "historical", but only "logical".
    It's not the case at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    it's abstracted in the game, because the game's major theme lies in other directions.
    Yes, I know. You think that the game is only about dynasties.
    And you are right...
    But with the previous version of the game, I have often tried to put a character from my dynasty on the Holy See.
    So, it isn't clearly off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    papal elections lie outside the scope of this game, that is my argument
    And my argument is that, conversely, the role of the Pope is essential in a game focused on the history of the Crusades.
    (More than knowing, as we read regularly, if you can play with a pagan or republican family).
    I'm not asking for substantial changes, but at least the return of a more logical system, as we could found in the first version of the game.

    I can understand that this issue doesn't concern your opinion about this (moreover, always interesting) game, but I don't see how you can think that it's almost irrelevant...

    Of course, that doesn't make me stop playing the game, but this issue seems more important to me that other minor problems, because it's hard coded and can not be resolved by any mod (as I know).

  13. #53
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by vwclaymore View Post
    Once the Pope dies, the cardinals elect a new Pope based on their relationships with the possible canidates and the canidates piety (among other cardinals and maybe some of the top bishops).
    I like this idea: simple enough, and based on the new system of "opinions" implemented in this version of the game.
    Interesting.

  14. #54
    Defensor Fidei et Ecclesiae Hawkeye1489's Avatar
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    While I am all for a College of Cardinal system for the election of the Pope, the problem here is that In Nomini Domine limited the actual voting electors to the 7 Suburbican Sees of Rome. Voting by the whole College (Cardinal-Bishops, Cardinal-Priests & Cardinal-Deacons) didn't occur until the late 1100s. Unfortunately, the Cardinal System we think is Medieval is actually more Renaissance. Even in this period it was rare to find a Pope that was from outside of the Roman Province let alone outside of Italy. These Cardinals were actual Bishops, Priests or Deacons of their churches/dioceses in Rome, not just titular holders like they are now.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye1489 View Post
    While I am all for a College of Cardinal system for the election of the Pope, the problem here is that In Nomini Domine limited the actual voting electors to the 7 Suburbican Sees of Rome. Voting by the whole College (Cardinal-Bishops, Cardinal-Priests & Cardinal-Deacons) didn't occur until the late 1100s. Unfortunately, the Cardinal System we think is Medieval is actually more Renaissance. Even in this period it was rare to find a Pope that was from outside of the Roman Province let alone outside of Italy. These Cardinals were actual Bishops, Priests or Deacons of their churches/dioceses in Rome, not just titular holders like they are now.
    Interesting
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  16. #56
    Great OP
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  17. #57
    The same goes for the Ecumenical Partiarch and any other head of religion you might want to add- I've added Catholicos-Patriarch of the Church of the East (nestorians) and Pope of Alexandria (monophysites) and they all elect various morons.
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  18. #58
    Well the Dark ages to early middle ages saw people put into the Papacy including Silvestre II right before game start so as long as it doesn't interfere with the anti-pope mechanic I am all for some sort of system where you dont get a syphilitic inbred freak with learning of 2 as the Pope.

    If they implement Cathedrals as an upgrade church holding for capitals, which I hope they do at some point then they could chose the best candidate from them automatically with the highest learning and piety. Dropping that title and assuming the Papacy. Could do it now with the highest learning/piety Bishop who loses land but I would rather see Cathedrals.

  19. #59
    It would be a great thing to add. Fully support the college of cardinal

  20. #60
    On Probation apg's Avatar
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    this is an area of crusader kings 2 that has dissapointed me, i.e. the total exclusion of any religious mechanics! its madness! lol....... there should deffinately be an inclusion of the college of cardinals, i doubt it would be that hard for the devs to create considering the already indepth dynasty system they have made. Or even if they made a comprehensive religious dlc, i would buy it (only if it was indepth though, nothing hollow).


    so yes +1

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