Reconsidering the Papal Election

[GizMecano]

Greetings,

As I wrote before, I noticed a strange comportment about pontifical election: during all my games, the new elected Pope was each times a random young man and not an experienced cleric chosen from existing characters. Recently, one of the elected popes was even a inbred idiot! Moreover, several of these characters weren't very religious (they generated bastards)... It's not the Gregorian Reform at all, it's the return of the Pornocracy or the Borgia Era in advance!

I said earlier, that it is particulary illogical considering the period in which the game action occurs : the Election Reform was created by Nicolas II in 1059 and the Gregorian Reform is coming soon after.

Moreover, the original database contains a lot of characters which are really more accurate to be righteously elected (for example, beginning near 1066, Hildebrand, the famous Gregory VII and actual successor of Alexander II) and the later database (during the game) will contain enough bishops and chaplains who may have the experience and the piety needed to be elected to the papacy.

With this system, any existing character can't access to the papal throne: starting in 1066, neither Hildebrand (Gregory VII) or Odo of Burgundy (Urban II) will be popes. And as the mechanism is implemented during the whole game, there is no chance that a character from an existing dynasty (hence, from the dynasty of the player) can be elected as the legitime Pope (I don't refer to the anti-pope feature here).

While the new system of investitures seems a very important step for gaming immersion, the mechanism of the papal election seems a rather unfortunate regression (I even think that the system used by CK1 was finally better).

I don't know if implementing the College of Cardinals (as some people have suggested on the forum) would be the solution (it would probably be the best feature, but complex to implement). But already, configure the papal election from existing characters (and not new random characters), including choosing a pious and unmarried (or widowed) character would be a good start.

Regards,

[postm00v]

I absolutely agree !

College of Cardinals would be awesome !

[Don_giorgio]

I absolutely agree !

College of Cardinals would be awesome !

Yes we need a College of Cardinals in the game (Cardinal could be a trait given to various Bishops or clergymen thus making them eligible for election to the Papacy)
Also rulers could have the option to petition the Pope to create one of their family member as a Cardinal or even buy the title from the Pope and give it to a family member (also quite historical).

Oh and please institute an interregnum between Popes... Its weird when a Pope dies another one pops out the same day the old one died like he was appointed beforehand.

[GizMecano]

Oh and please institute an interregnum between Popes...

Yes, it would be a little interesting bonus (if I remember correctly, at this time, the coronation date was always a sunday for example).

By the way, if an existing character could be elected as pope, it would be interesting to have a popup which inform us about the election and give us the regnal name and the former name of the character (for knowing his dynasty).

Something as the habemus papam motto (although it was developed later) could be used :

I announce to you a great joy:
We have a Pope!
The most eminent and most reverend Lord,
Lord [First Name],
Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church [Last Name],
Who takes for himself the name of [Papal Name].

Regards,

[westerberg]

I don't know if implementing the College of Cardinals (as some people have suggested on the forum) would be the solution (it would probably be the best feature, but complex to implement). But already, configure the papal election from existing characters (and not new random characters), including choosing a pious and unmarried (or widowed) character would be a good start.

^I would pay some bucks for this for sure. Awesome idea to include the Collage of Cardinals

[Myrten]

I think there should be more then one way of electing Pope which could be changed during the game. From college of cardinals to some kind of imperial supremacy where emperor nominates the pope.

[Orinsul]

Just bringing back the thing from CK where for Popes AND bishops instead of a random character being generated on the death of the old one, it grabbed some unsuspecting bishop from the other side of the world, shoved a hat on him and pushed him on stage.
Itd be nice to go back to occassionally getting your brother up there. And probably not very complicated to impliment.

[SamEskenazi]

+1 for this, a much more interesting and overall fun idea. Obviously make sure to make it different to MTW, but otherwise excellent idea!

/signed

[Orinsul]

whats MTW? heaps of threads lately have been people saying its important to make it different than MTW but never what MTW stands for

[GizMecano]

Greetings,

The problem that I want to point is here. With a lot of new features that increase the immersion sentiment of the player (new investitures system, specific succession law, people named from their parents, and so on), the papal election mechanism seems to be a kind of regression compared to the previous (CK1) version.

During my last game, a syphilitic and inbred teenager with a negative piety have called for Crusade : who can believe it?
He reigned for more than 30 years (during the medieval era of the game, the longest reign was Alexander III's one with 21 years), only occupied to make bastards with the illegitimate daughter of his predecessor and to put in jail all his poor vassals.
He wasn't clearly a model of sainthood, and this exemple is far away from popes who reigned during the post-Gregorian era (except if we consider a return of the pornocracy, as all these random character are Italians, or an early arrival of the Borgia's time...).

Regards,

[Tiresais]

Could we make titular Duchy positions below the titular position of Pope for the college of cardinals, and then have an event kill the random pope chosen by the game and pick a random cardinal amongst those holding the duchies? Or better yet, a chain of events that happen over a week/month that leads to the choosing of a pope?

[richelieu1628]

I agree this would be an excellent idea, and very good points from the OP. Even though the four centuries of the game saw plenty of vile popes, the 1050-1100 period should have more formidable incumbents.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to mod this, but as a game feature it seems very feasible. 'Cardinal' could be a trait for unmarried bishops only, grant prestige per month, be awarded by the pope by event (perhaps kings can also petition the pope etc). Then the next pope would be selected from all holders of the 'Cardinal' trait.

[Moltke]

I'm a little surprised the CoC isn't in the game. It's not sorely missed, but would add that much more interactivity. (and motivation for making an Anti-Pope or turning heretic)

[richelieu1628]

I'm a little surprised the CoC isn't in the game. It's not sorely missed, but would add that much more interactivity. (and motivation for making an Anti-Pope or turning heretic)

indeed

[Diet of Worms]

whats MTW? heaps of threads lately have been people saying its important to make it different than MTW but never what MTW stands for

I assume Medieval: Total War? Probably Medieval 2: Total War.

[Don_giorgio]

Also the same principal (with proper adjustments) can apply to the Ecumenical Patriarch too... Historically the Patriarch was either appointed directly by the Emperor (in most cases) or elected by a Synod of Bishops (rarely happened in that era).
However it would be nice if we could see some event for the Byzantine Emperor when the Patriarch dies giving him the choice to appoint a new Patriarch or throw the election to the Bishops.

But as for OP i fully agree that we need a College of Cardinals and some events where powerful rulers try to influence the Papal election (or in some cases we could get a deadlocked Conclave event prolonging the election).

[GizMecano]

Greetings,

As I didn't seem to be alone finding that this Papal Election is problematic, I wonder if a developer can enlighten us about the different possibilites:

1. Is it possible to imagine the creation of a kind of College of Cardinals in a future patch or DLC ?
2. Otherwise, can we expect a return to a more plausible system (as the system based on piety and used in CK1 for example) ?

Regards,

[Dearmad]

+1 to college of cardinals. or at least something better than what it is now.

[AllThat4Nothing]

i don't get how anyone is having problems with the way Popes are handled ingame.

[Don_giorgio]

I agree this would be an excellent idea, and very good points from the OP. Even though the four centuries of the game saw plenty of vile popes, the 1050-1100 period should have more formidable incumbents.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to mod this, but as a game feature it seems very feasible. 'Cardinal' could be a trait for unmarried bishops only, grant prestige per month, be awarded by the pope by event (perhaps kings can also petition the pope etc). Then the next pope would be selected from all holders of the 'Cardinal' trait.

+1 I fully support the Cardinal trait