+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 120

Thread: Reconsidering the Papal Election

  1. #1
    Second Lieutenant GizMecano's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IICK2: Holy Knight

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    125

    Unhappy Reconsidering the Papal Election

    Greetings,

    As I wrote before, I noticed a strange comportment about pontifical election: during all my games, the new elected Pope was each times a random young man and not an experienced cleric chosen from existing characters. Recently, one of the elected popes was even a inbred idiot! Moreover, several of these characters weren't very religious (they generated bastards)... It's not the Gregorian Reform at all, it's the return of the Pornocracy or the Borgia Era in advance!

    I said earlier, that it is particulary illogical considering the period in which the game action occurs : the Election Reform was created by Nicolas II in 1059 and the Gregorian Reform is coming soon after.

    Moreover, the original database contains a lot of characters which are really more accurate to be righteously elected (for example, beginning near 1066, Hildebrand, the famous Gregory VII and actual successor of Alexander II) and the later database (during the game) will contain enough bishops and chaplains who may have the experience and the piety needed to be elected to the papacy.

    With this system, any existing character can't access to the papal throne: starting in 1066, neither Hildebrand (Gregory VII) or Odo of Burgundy (Urban II) will be popes. And as the mechanism is implemented during the whole game, there is no chance that a character from an existing dynasty (hence, from the dynasty of the player) can be elected as the legitime Pope (I don't refer to the anti-pope feature here).

    While the new system of investitures seems a very important step for gaming immersion, the mechanism of the papal election seems a rather unfortunate regression (I even think that the system used by CK1 was finally better).

    I don't know if implementing the College of Cardinals (as some people have suggested on the forum) would be the solution (it would probably be the best feature, but complex to implement). But already, configure the papal election from existing characters (and not new random characters), including choosing a pious and unmarried (or widowed) character would be a good start.

    Regards,

  2. #2
    Colonel postm00v's Avatar
    A Game of DwarvesCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindHeir to the ThroneMarch of the EaglesRome GoldSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedRome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    998
    I absolutely agree !

    College of Cardinals would be awesome !

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by postm00v View Post
    I absolutely agree !

    College of Cardinals would be awesome !
    Yes we need a College of Cardinals in the game (Cardinal could be a trait given to various Bishops or clergymen thus making them eligible for election to the Papacy)
    Also rulers could have the option to petition the Pope to create one of their family member as a Cardinal or even buy the title from the Pope and give it to a family member (also quite historical).

    Oh and please institute an interregnum between Popes... Its weird when a Pope dies another one pops out the same day the old one died like he was appointed beforehand.

  4. #4
    Second Lieutenant GizMecano's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IICK2: Holy Knight

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by Don_giorgio View Post
    Oh and please institute an interregnum between Popes...
    Yes, it would be a little interesting bonus (if I remember correctly, at this time, the coronation date was always a sunday for example).

    By the way, if an existing character could be elected as pope, it would be interesting to have a popup which inform us about the election and give us the regnal name and the former name of the character (for knowing his dynasty).

    Something as the habemus papam motto (although it was developed later) could be used :


    I announce to you a great joy:
    We have a Pope!
    The most eminent and most reverend Lord,
    Lord [First Name],
    Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church [Last Name],
    Who takes for himself the name of [Papal Name].
    Regards,

  5. #5
    Sergeant westerberg's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IICommander: Conquest of the AmericasDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneMagickaSemper Fi
    Sword of the StarsVictoria 2Mount & Blade: WarbandCK2: Holy Knight500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Upplands Väsby
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by GizMecano View Post
    I don't know if implementing the College of Cardinals (as some people have suggested on the forum) would be the solution (it would probably be the best feature, but complex to implement). But already, configure the papal election from existing characters (and not new random characters), including choosing a pious and unmarried (or widowed) character would be a good start.
    ^I would pay some bucks for this for sure. Awesome idea to include the Collage of Cardinals

  6. #6
    I think there should be more then one way of electing Pope which could be changed during the game. From college of cardinals to some kind of imperial supremacy where emperor nominates the pope.

  7. #7
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    6,753
    Just bringing back the thing from CK where for Popes AND bishops instead of a random character being generated on the death of the old one, it grabbed some unsuspecting bishop from the other side of the world, shoved a hat on him and pushed him on stage.
    Itd be nice to go back to occassionally getting your brother up there. And probably not very complicated to impliment.
    Nationality: New Zealander
    Religion: Roman Catholic
    Ideology: Distributist
    Issues: Moralism/Full Citizenship
    How did some slip of a girlyboy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?

    Don't Press the O
    "There's nothing sicker in society
    Than a lack of liquor and sobriety!"

  8. #8
    +1 for this, a much more interesting and overall fun idea. Obviously make sure to make it different to MTW, but otherwise excellent idea!

    /signed

  9. #9
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    6,753
    whats MTW? heaps of threads lately have been people saying its important to make it different than MTW but never what MTW stands for
    Nationality: New Zealander
    Religion: Roman Catholic
    Ideology: Distributist
    Issues: Moralism/Full Citizenship
    How did some slip of a girlyboy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?

    Don't Press the O
    "There's nothing sicker in society
    Than a lack of liquor and sobriety!"

  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant GizMecano's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IICK2: Holy Knight

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    125
    Greetings,

    The problem that I want to point is here. With a lot of new features that increase the immersion sentiment of the player (new investitures system, specific succession law, people named from their parents, and so on), the papal election mechanism seems to be a kind of regression compared to the previous (CK1) version.

    During my last game, a syphilitic and inbred teenager with a negative piety have called for Crusade : who can believe it?
    He reigned for more than 30 years (during the medieval era of the game, the longest reign was Alexander III's one with 21 years), only occupied to make bastards with the illegitimate daughter of his predecessor and to put in jail all his poor vassals.
    He wasn't clearly a model of sainthood, and this exemple is far away from popes who reigned during the post-Gregorian era (except if we consider a return of the pornocracy, as all these random character are Italians, or an early arrival of the Borgia's time...).

    Regards,

  11. #11
    Captain Tiresais's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCities in MotionCities in Motion 2Crusader Kings II
    Commander: Conquest of the AmericasDeus VultDungeonlandEast India Company CollectionEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor The GloryFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneLead and GoldThe Kings CrusadeMagickaMajesty 2
    Penumbra - Black PlagueVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengoku
    Sword of the StarsSupreme Ruler 2020 GoldVictoria 2Rome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: Warband
    Mount & Blade: With Fire and SwordRise of PrussiaCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order
    EUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    ,United Kingdom
    Posts
    444
    Could we make titular Duchy positions below the titular position of Pope for the college of cardinals, and then have an event kill the random pope chosen by the game and pick a random cardinal amongst those holding the duchies? Or better yet, a chain of events that happen over a week/month that leads to the choosing of a pope?

  12. #12
    Where and Who the state began richelieu1628's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the Motherland
    Hearts of Iron IIIRome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    Victoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    152
    I agree this would be an excellent idea, and very good points from the OP. Even though the four centuries of the game saw plenty of vile popes, the 1050-1100 period should have more formidable incumbents.

    I'm not sure how difficult it would be to mod this, but as a game feature it seems very feasible. 'Cardinal' could be a trait for unmarried bishops only, grant prestige per month, be awarded by the pope by event (perhaps kings can also petition the pope etc). Then the next pope would be selected from all holders of the 'Cardinal' trait.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Moltke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Shanghai
    Posts
    3,814
    I'm a little surprised the CoC isn't in the game. It's not sorely missed, but would add that much more interactivity. (and motivation for making an Anti-Pope or turning heretic)

  14. #14
    Where and Who the state began richelieu1628's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the Motherland
    Hearts of Iron IIIRome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    Victoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    152
    Quote Originally Posted by Moltke View Post
    I'm a little surprised the CoC isn't in the game. It's not sorely missed, but would add that much more interactivity. (and motivation for making an Anti-Pope or turning heretic)
    indeed

  15. #15
    Colonel Diet of Worms's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3For the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionNaval War: Arctic Circle
    Europa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    Rome: Vae VictisPride of NationsCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Home of Perfidy
    Posts
    973
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    whats MTW? heaps of threads lately have been people saying its important to make it different than MTW but never what MTW stands for
    I assume Medieval: Total War? Probably Medieval 2: Total War.

  16. #16
    Also the same principal (with proper adjustments) can apply to the Ecumenical Patriarch too... Historically the Patriarch was either appointed directly by the Emperor (in most cases) or elected by a Synod of Bishops (rarely happened in that era).
    However it would be nice if we could see some event for the Byzantine Emperor when the Patriarch dies giving him the choice to appoint a new Patriarch or throw the election to the Bishops.

    But as for OP i fully agree that we need a College of Cardinals and some events where powerful rulers try to influence the Papal election (or in some cases we could get a deadlocked Conclave event prolonging the election).

  17. #17
    Second Lieutenant GizMecano's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IICK2: Holy Knight

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    125

    Thumbs up

    Greetings,

    As I didn't seem to be alone finding that this Papal Election is problematic, I wonder if a developer can enlighten us about the different possibilites:
    1. Is it possible to imagine the creation of a kind of College of Cardinals in a future patch or DLC ?
    2. Otherwise, can we expect a return to a more plausible system (as the system based on piety and used in CK1 for example) ?

    Regards,

  18. #18
    Colonel Dearmad's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Rome: Vae Victis500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Hedgies Hang
    Posts
    1,151
    +1 to college of cardinals. or at least something better than what it is now.

  19. #19
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDiplomacyEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the Throne
    Naval War: Arctic CircleMount & Blade: WarbandCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV
    EUIV: Wealth of NationsEUIV: Conquest of Paradise

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    2,355
    i don't get how anyone is having problems with the way Popes are handled ingame.
    I once lost a pair of shoes.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by richelieu1628 View Post
    I agree this would be an excellent idea, and very good points from the OP. Even though the four centuries of the game saw plenty of vile popes, the 1050-1100 period should have more formidable incumbents.

    I'm not sure how difficult it would be to mod this, but as a game feature it seems very feasible. 'Cardinal' could be a trait for unmarried bishops only, grant prestige per month, be awarded by the pope by event (perhaps kings can also petition the pope etc). Then the next pope would be selected from all holders of the 'Cardinal' trait.
    +1 I fully support the Cardinal trait

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts