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Thread: Naval Positioning: exploring how the system works

  1. #1
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Naval Positioning: exploring how the system works

    After various questions on how naval positioning works, I decided to do some testing. Because this is a fairly ambitious project, I would like some help figuring this out, so I've chosen a simple and easy to reproduce test environment:
    • HoI3 For the Motherland 3.05 (no mods)
    • 1936 Scenario as Brazil.
    • Change commander to Moraes Rego of Brazil's "Marinha Do Brasil". Send fleet to Blanca Bay. Wait for it to arrive.
    • Edit save game file to reduce Argentina's neutrality to 0
    • Play as Argentina on the saved game and DOW Brazil
    • Combine Argentina's "Armada de Argentina" to be all 10 naval ships except the submarine. Change commander to Storni. Send fleet into Blanca Bay. Save for at this point for easy future re-testing.

    The results so far are quite interesting. I've tracked just two of Argentina's ships for simplicity over five trials. The fleet loss column is where I simply totaled the total percentage strength loss of all the ships in Argentina's fleet:



    A few things are obviously apparent from this:
    • Positioning has no impact on attack or defense, nor any impact on guns' effective distance.
    • Ships that recieve individual modifiers recieve them consistently based on technology as an addition to the base fleet positioning.
    • Positioning scores are remarkably consistent when all things are equal.
    • Fleet losses are directly related to positioning. More research needed.
      [**] When positioning is the same, the fleet losses will be identical.

    That last point was quite a surprise. Three out of five times the fleet had the same positioning (the 57.8% positioning score), and in all three times the exact same ships took the exact same losses. I was not expecting those results at all!

    Last edited by bbasgen; 28-02-2012 at 06:07. Reason: Further details on test setup
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  2. #2
    Colonel Twotribes's Avatar
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    3 tests are not enough to make a firm statement about what is happening.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotribes View Post
    3 tests are not enough to make a firm statement about what is happening.
    Quite right. Hence, I started with five tests and I'm imploring folks to help out and do more testing using this base sandbox. There are lots of questions to still explore:
    • If Argentina removes hull points to have 0% stacking penalty, how does that help its positioning?
    • What kind of damage does the Argentinean fleet inflict on the other fleet based on different positioning scores?
    • How does the Brazil fleet, with different composition and technologies, position?
    • How does the Brazil fleet take damage and inflict damage?
    • Does positioning effect org loss?

    With further data to analyze, we could begin dealing with the real questions:
    • What kind of equation can model positioning score?
    • How does positioning effect naval damage?
    • What exact role does the stacking penalty play in positioning?

    Please feel free to pitch in and experiment. I think this sandbox can begin to produce some models that could be later ported to more complicated sandboxes: perhaps a 1939 scenario with Germany and UK.
    Last edited by bbasgen; 28-02-2012 at 06:07.
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  4. #4
    Something to consider:

    You said that


    A few things are obviously apparent from this:
    •Positioning has no impact on attack or defense, nor any impact on guns' effective distance.
    •Ships that recieve individual modifiers recieve them consistently based on technology as an addition to the base fleet positioning.
    •Positioning scores are remarkably consistent when all things are equal.
    •Fleet losses are directly related to positioning. More research needed.
    [**] When positioning is the same, the fleet losses will be identical.

    You are correct in that positioning does not affect offense, defense, or gun's distance; if the ship has 10 sea attack, and 120% attack modifier, then it has an effect sea attack of 12. Also, the gun's "effective" distance is fixed based on ship type. Positioning affects a different part of the calculation. It's like me saying my SUV has a top speed of 120MPH... that's great if I'm on flat, well paved road at sea level; that number is potential max, not actual use.



    Also, I'm confused as to the last 2 coluns of that table. Based on your statement, you say that you are comparing Argentina's ship strength vs. Argentina's positioning. I don't think that's correct... the amount of STR loss suffered by Argentina should be relative to BRAZIL's positioning modifier.

    Since all the trials are performed with similar techs at similar times, then it stands to reason that during the 3 trials where ARG's positioning is the same, that BRA's will be the same as well. And if BRA's is the same, then the battles resolving themselves similarly has a very respectable chance.

    (I.E. the Third Cause rule. It's not that

    ARG positioning -> ARG's STR loss,

    it's that

    Current Conditions -> ARG & BRA positioning &
    BRA positioning -> ARG STR loss)
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  5. #5
    Second Lieutenant Dreezzzzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    • What kind of equation can model positioning score?
    • How does positioning effect naval damage
    • What exact role does the stacking penalty play in positioning?
    I recently started playing again. During SF, I did some testing and figured out how positioning was calculated. How it effected naval battle and what role the stacking penalty plays in positioning. I don't know if any changes have been made in FTM. I will post a link to my thread when I am back home.
    "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
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    -John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873).

  6. #6
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themousemaster View Post
    Since all the trials are performed with similar techs at similar times, then it stands to reason that during the 3 trials where ARG's positioning is the same, that BRA's will be the same as well. And if BRA's is the same, then the battles resolving themselves similarly has a very respectable chance.
    I agree. The experiment primarily demonstrated that we need a better experiment! More focus on the positioning of both fleets, strength and org losses is needed. Also, a model of total attack/defense of both fleets will be needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreezzzzz View Post
    I recently started playing again. During SF, I did some testing and figured out how positioning was calculated. How it effected naval battle and what role the stacking penalty plays in positioning. I don't know if any changes have been made in FTM. I will post a link to my thread when I am back home.
    That would be a great help. Even if changes were made, that would be a good model to work from.
    Last edited by bbasgen; 28-02-2012 at 17:43.
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  7. #7
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    I did my calculations in 2010. Version 2.03c. Your questions are answered in the thread.
    As I said, I don't know if it's valid anymore. Someone replied in 2011 and refers to another thread.
    Did a quick scan of that thread and together they should give you some good info.
    Lots of reading to do, good luck!!!!
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...eneral-s-skill
    "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
    -Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945).

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"
    -John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873).

  8. #8
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    This is the kind of stuff I'm not that good at doing. Whatever you discover, I'm all ears.

    I expected more variation, too. Maybe it's a fluke.
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  9. #9
    I think a better test would be to use all gunships & escorts if possible and I would have a greater disparity between positioning. You might need to use another nation if you don't have enough ships. For example. Use have a 10 ship fleet with 4-5 capital ships (BB/BC/CA) & CL/DD escorts. Fleet "A" would have a two star skill commander with no other bonuses. Fleet "B" would have the same ships, but via hack, 3 levels higher of the appropriate positioning tech and a two star skill commander with the superior tactician bonus = 25% total positioning bonus. Such a large discrepancy should be enough to overcome the random battle variables and provide different results.

    Nothing scientific, during the learning curve process, I've made sure to ramp some positioning tech and keep fleet hull penalties down. I'd say I've seen a 25%, maybe 30% increase in average positioning from the first time I tried the game and my BB fleets are actually sinking/damaging ships.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreezzzzz View Post
    I did my calculations in 2010. Version 2.03c. Your questions are answered in the thread.
    As I said, I don't know if it's valid anymore. Someone replied in 2011 and refers to another thread.
    Did a quick scan of that thread and together they should give you some good info.
    Lots of reading to do, good luck!!!!
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...eneral-s-skill
    Hey,

    I can't quite make heads or tails of your naval positioning thread. I see that you found things that did not work or were not involved in positioning, and I see that you found that leader skill effects positioning. What I don't see is any formula for how positioning is created or what the impact of a positioning really is to a fleet engagement (e.g. what is the practical impact of 50% positioning versus 80% positioning).

    Am I missing something, or did your research not get that far?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    Hey,

    I can't quite make heads or tails of your naval positioning thread. I see that you found things that did not work or were not involved in positioning, and I see that you found that leader skill effects positioning. What I don't see is any formula for how positioning is created or what the impact of a positioning really is to a fleet engagement (e.g. what is the practical impact of 50% positioning versus 80% positioning).

    Am I missing something, or did your research not get that far?
    Lol, that thread gave me headaches!!!
    But my curiosity is awakened again! It took my quite a bit of work to figure it out.
    Stopped playing for a while and just recently restarted. I will reread my own thread and try to see if it's still correct.
    I made a formula to calculate effective positioning and as far as I recal, this affected Attack values.
    I will check it.
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  12. #12
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    1.Positioning multiplied by Attack modifiers multiplied by Sea attack = Damage dealt to enemy.
    (Damage dealt to enemy minus Sea defense) divided by the ships hull value is Actual Damage done to a ship each hour.
    To my understanding this is how Naval combat damage dealing works.

    This anwers what the impact of positioning is on a fleet engagement

    2.As it is really important, to have an experienced fleet with a high skilled admiral assigned, to boost attack modifier. It is also important to have a good positioning value to do more damage.
    I will now explain how you can get the best values for positioning.
    The Formula used to calculate position: SP = B + (FP x 1.1)

    SP = Ship's effective positioning, this is the number actually used to multiply with attack modifiers and sea attack. This number is found in the pop up which appears when your mousepointer is pointed on a ship in the naval combat screen.

    B = Base number, this number is influenced by naval concentration doctrine.
    1936 = position 0.00 = 0
    1937 = position 0.05 = 5.5
    1939 = position 0.10 = 11
    1941 = position 0.15 = 16.5
    1943 = position 0.20 = 22

    FP = Fleet's effective positioning, number found next to admiral's picture in naval combat screen.

    This answers how positioning is calculated.

    As said before I don't know if it's valid anymore!!!! Has to be tested. It was valid in 2.03c
    "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
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  13. #13
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    This is good work, but I'm not yet intuitively tracking.

    My simple test run up top showed Argentina's outdated and low tech fleet starting with an FP between 55% and 67%. Do I understand your formula if my Test 1 example means FP = 0.548? In Argentina's case in 1936, the Heavy Cruiser has a 5% positioning bonus. Using that, we get 0.05 + (0.548 * 1.1) = 0.6258. I assume your SP should match De Mayo's positioning value which was 59.8%, but we are 3% off.

    More importantly, I think we need to solve the equation without knowing what any positioning value is. In other words, how do we figure out how the fleet positioning number is determined? Why does Argentina's backwards starting Navy, with a level 1 commander, consistently get a positioning in the 55% range? There is obviously some degree of randomness here because all other things are equal in the test, but there is also obviously a great deal of consistency. Thus, what factors build up to produce a "Base fleet positioning" value?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    This is good work, but I'm not yet intuitively tracking.

    My simple test run up top showed Argentina's outdated and low tech fleet starting with an FP between 55% and 67%. Do I understand your formula if my Test 1 example means FP = 0.548? In Argentina's case in 1936, the Heavy Cruiser has a 5% positioning bonus. Using that, we get 0.05 + (0.548 * 1.1) = 0.6258. I assume your SP should match De Mayo's positioning value which was 59.8%, but we are 3% off.

    More importantly, I think we need to solve the equation without knowing what any positioning value is. In other words, how do we figure out how the fleet positioning number is determined? Why does Argentina's backwards starting Navy, with a level 1 commander, consistently get a positioning in the 55% range? There is obviously some degree of randomness here because all other things are equal in the test, but there is also obviously a great deal of consistency. Thus, what factors build up to produce a "Base fleet positioning" value?
    I just did a quick test. FTM 3.05, NO mods.
    I made a fleet of 2x BB, 5x DD.
    BB had positioning doctrine of 0.15
    DD had positioning doctrine of 0.10




    As you can see in the screenshots. The Fleet has a positioning of 61%
    The BB has an effective positioning of 83.6%
    The DD has an effective positioning of 78.1%

    The formula still stands.
    Effective positioning = Base number (depending on doctrines) + (Fleet Positioning x 1.1)

    BB 83.6 = 16.5 + (61 x 1.1)

    DD 78.1 = 11 + (61 x 1.1)

    I have only tested this with a fleet of BB and DD. Will test it with a CTF soon.
    My guess is that the game mechanics work the same!!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreezzzzz View Post
    2.As it is really important, to have an experienced fleet with a high skilled admiral assigned, to boost attack modifier. It is also important to have a good positioning value to do more damage.
    I will now explain how you can get the best values for positioning.
    The Formula used to calculate position: SP = B + (FP x 1.1)

    SP = Ship's effective positioning, this is the number actually used to multiply with attack modifiers and sea attack. This number is found in the pop up which appears when your mousepointer is pointed on a ship in the naval combat screen.

    B = Base number, this number is influenced by naval concentration doctrine.
    1936 = position 0.00 = 0
    1937 = position 0.05 = 5.5
    1939 = position 0.10 = 11
    1941 = position 0.15 = 16.5
    1943 = position 0.20 = 22

    FP = Fleet's effective positioning, number found next to admiral's picture in naval combat screen.

    This answers how positioning is calculated.

    As said before I don't know if it's valid anymore!!!! Has to be tested. It was valid in 2.03c

    Are you sure the formula isn't: (BP + FP) x 1.1 ?

    The reason I ask is that this:

    B = Base number, this number is influenced by naval concentration doctrine.
    1936 = position 0.00 = 0
    1937 = position 0.05 = 5.5
    1939 = position 0.10 = 11
    1941 = position 0.15 = 16.5
    1943 = position 0.20 = 22

    doesn't make sense to me.

    If you take the example you give in post #14 along with the new formula above, you would get the following results:

    BB: (.15 + .61) x 1.1 = .836 or 83.6%

    DD: (.10 + .61) x 1.1 = .781 or 78.1%

    Keep in mind, I've not done any in-game research myself; I'm basing my theory on the numbers and example you gave.
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  16. #16
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreezzzzz View Post
    As you can see in the screenshots. The Fleet has a positioning of 61%
    I think that the key question is: why does the fleet have a positioning of 61%. How is that number determined?

    Quote Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
    Are you sure the formula isn't: (BP + FP) x 1.1 ?
    I think you are correct in terms of solving for effective positioning.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
    Are you sure the formula isn't: (BP + FP) x 1.1 ?

    The reason I ask is that this:

    B = Base number, this number is influenced by naval concentration doctrine.
    1936 = position 0.00 = 0
    1937 = position 0.05 = 5.5
    1939 = position 0.10 = 11
    1941 = position 0.15 = 16.5
    1943 = position 0.20 = 22

    doesn't make sense to me.

    If you take the example you give in post #14 along with the new formula above, you would get the following results:

    BB: (.15 + .61) x 1.1 = .836 or 83.6%

    DD: (.10 + .61) x 1.1 = .781 or 78.1%

    Keep in mind, I've not done any in-game research myself; I'm basing my theory on the numbers and example you gave.
    You are right, but it's another way of using the formula.

    If you look at the base number (maybe doctrinal number is a better name) it it's already multiplied x 1.1.
    1937 = 0.05 = 5 x 1.1 = 5.5
    1939 = 0.10 = 10 x 1.1 = 11
    1941 = 0.15 = 15 x 1.1 = 16.5
    1943 = 0.20 = 22 x 1.1 = 22

    I don't have a mathematical background so I don't know what the proper way of making a formula is.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    I think that the key question is: why does the fleet have a positioning of 61%. How is that number determined?
    In my research I could not find how this number was calculated exactly.
    I did find out:
    -that the skill of the Fleet leader positively effects this number.
    -Hull penalty negatively effects this number.

    My guess is that at the start of the battle there will be a roll that determines what a fleet's position is within a certain bracket.
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    -Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945).

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    -John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    I think that the key question is: why does the fleet have a positioning of 61%. How is that number determined?



    I think you are correct in terms of solving for effective positioning.

    OK....

    After a couple hours of play testing (when I should be outside on a beautiful day...) here's some more definitive (but by no means complete) information than my earlier drive-by hypothesis:

    1) The formula for Positioning is:

    EP = (FP + DM)*FC

    EP --> Effective positioning for a ship
    FP --> Fleet positioning (% next to admiral's picture)
    DM --> Doctrine Modifier (Naval Doctrines per each ship class e.g., Battlefleet Concentration Doctrine increases BB positioning by .05/tech level)
    FC --> Fire Control System Training (.05/tech level)


    2) Every battle a fleet enters into, it will have a different FP. After starting a bunch of engagements, including multiple battles with the same fleet (sometimes engaging the same enemy fleet multiple times), I can conclude that either the FP has a random factor included, or there is simply something unique to every battle that I haven't observed. The FP will be modified by the commanding Admiral's skill (+10% for each level) and the Hull Penalty (-% seen in red on fleet info screen), but other than that I can't say.


    3) You now have a reason to research Sea Lane Control Doctrines, even if you eschew BB's and DD's!
    Fire Control Systems Training doctrine is moderately important considering it raises the overall positioning of every ship in your navy per tech level.


    Battle Example:

    JAP attacks USA (FEB 1943)

    JAP commander skill 5 vs. USA commander skill 3
    JAP FP = .661 (includes +.5 from admiral and -.087 from Hull Penalty) vs. USA FP = .642 (includes +.3 from admiral and -.078 from Hull Penalty)
    JAP FC level 4 vs USA FC level 3

    JAP BB EP = (.661 + .20)*1.2 = 1.033 or 103.3%
    JAP CL EP = (.661 + .15)*1.2 = 0.973 or 97.3%

    USA CV EP = (.682 + .20)*1.15 = 1.101 or 101.4%
    USA CL EP = (.682 + .15)*1.15 = 0.956 or 95.6%


    So, now that there is a clearer understanding of how it's calculated, what exactly is positioning's effect in terms of battle mechanics?
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  20. #20
    Second Lieutenant Dreezzzzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
    OK....

    After a couple hours of play testing (when I should be outside on a beautiful day...) here's some more definitive (but by no means complete) information than my earlier drive-by hypothesis:

    1) The formula for Positioning is:

    EP = (FP + DM)*FC

    EP --> Effective positioning for a ship
    FP --> Fleet positioning (% next to admiral's picture)
    DM --> Doctrine Modifier (Naval Doctrines per each ship class e.g., Battlefleet Concentration Doctrine increases BB positioning by .05/tech level)
    FC --> Fire Control System Training (.05/tech level)


    2) Every battle a fleet enters into, it will have a different FP. After starting a bunch of engagements, including multiple battles with the same fleet (sometimes engaging the same enemy fleet multiple times), I can conclude that either the FP has a random factor included, or there is simply something unique to every battle that I haven't observed. The FP will be modified by the commanding Admiral's skill (+10% for each level) and the Hull Penalty (-% seen in red on fleet info screen), but other than that I can't say.


    3) You now have a reason to research Sea Lane Control Doctrines, even if you eschew BB's and DD's!
    Fire Control Systems Training doctrine is moderately important considering it raises the overall positioning of every ship in your navy per tech level.


    Battle Example:

    JAP attacks USA (FEB 1943)

    JAP commander skill 5 vs. USA commander skill 3
    JAP FP = .661 (includes +.5 from admiral and -.087 from Hull Penalty) vs. USA FP = .642 (includes +.3 from admiral and -.078 from Hull Penalty)
    JAP FC level 4 vs USA FC level 3

    JAP BB EP = (.661 + .20)*1.2 = 1.033 or 103.3%
    JAP CL EP = (.661 + .15)*1.2 = 0.973 or 97.3%

    USA CV EP = (.682 + .20)*1.15 = 1.101 or 101.4%
    USA CL EP = (.682 + .15)*1.15 = 0.956 or 95.6%


    So, now that there is a clearer understanding of how it's calculated, what exactly is positioning's effect in terms of battle mechanics?
    This sounds very reasonable but I do not quite get it. Could you fill the formula in with my test result.
    FP = 61%
    EFP = 83.6%
    DM = 0.15
    FC = 0.10
    Leader skill 2 = 20%
    Hull penalty 0%

    Somehow my way always worked! I never researched FC so it is was always 0.10 therefore 1.1, did has something to do with it. Can you show me why it worked the way it did compared to your formula.
    FP is always a round number. In my findings it would be 0.610?
    How can it be 0.661 or 0.682 in your calculations?

    Did you find how superior Tactician trait influences the whole?

    If FC is important then probably Commander Decision making is also more important (increases target choice by 0.05 each tech).



    The impact FEP has on fleet engagement:

    Effective Positioning multiplied by Attack modifiers multiplied by Sea attack = Damage dealt to enemy.
    (Damage dealt to enemy minus Sea defense) divided by the ships hull value is Actual Damage done to a ship each hour.
    To my understanding this is how Naval combat damage dealing works.
    Last edited by Dreezzzzz; 03-03-2012 at 22:20.
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