The Rise of Heresy and the end of the Catholic Church - an Interactive Heretic AAR

[Konnigratz]

I'll vote for Cathar. Here's to a Europe painted in heretical blue instead of Catholic white!

[Seek75]

Just wanted to express, that the heretic ruler was a former catholic.
Due to the pope and other catholic rulers around, the AAR would have more potential, then just being a heretic in the ERE, take over it and convert the Empire to iconoclast.
Let´s say, he choose to play with Toulouse, become cathar and then take over France. After that he can fight his former catholic brethren and install a catharian pope -> more potential for an AAR, but that is just my opinion.

It's not about potential, it's about votes. If people vote for Iconoclast and Iconoclast wins, the AAR will be Iconoclast.

[rudders10]

Iconoclast

[Hyena Dandy]

Trololololololololollard

[naggy]

I originally planned the vote to end tomorrow, because I had that day off for research. However, I switched days after getting poked in the eye, so I'm ending voting now.

The AAR will be a Cathar AAR, winning 21 votes to 18 for Iconoclast. Lollard was the only other choice that had more than 2 votes.

Next up: choose a date and court. 2 days to decide so I can start playing on Saturday.
Date Options:
September 15, 1066. The starting point for the game.
January 1, 1150. At this point, Toulouse, Carcassone, and Narbonne have turned Cathar.
Note: At no point do any of the actual rulers start as Cathar.

Courts:
Duchy of Toulouse or County of Narbonne - Southern France (Languedoc), the target of the Albigensian Crusade
County of Jülich or Pfalz - Rheinland counties, another stronghold of the Cathars. (Köln/Cologne is out, as it is a Prince-Bishopric.)
A Northern Italian duchy or county - Catharism was popular in Italy into the late 1200's

I'll tally the votes early on Saturday (EST).

[Omen]

I say: Duchy of Toulouse for a strong power base to spread the truth, starting at January 1, 1150.

[MikeOfTipton]

My Vote:

County of Narbonne

September 15 , 1066

[naggy]

Catharism, like any Protestant denomination and most other heresies, is defined in two ways:

• What they didn't like about the church they split from (Catholics)
• What they believed differently from the church they split from

...they usually say of themselves that they are good Christians, ...hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ and his gospel as the apostles taught... occupy the place of the apostles. ...they talk to the laity of the evil lives of the clerks and prelates of the Roman Church... ...they attack and vituperate, in turn, all the sacraments of the Church, especially the sacrament of the eucharist, saying that it cannot contain the body of Christ... Of baptism, they assert that the water is material and corruptible... and cannot sanctify the soul... ...they claim that confession made to the priests of the Roman Church is useless... They assert, moreover, that the cross of Christ should not be adored or venerated... Moreover they read from the Gospels and the Epistles in the vulgar tongue, applying and expounding them in their favour and against the condition of the Roman Church...

— On the Albigensians

What we know of the Cathar is limited and skewed, as the Church destroyed many of their works. Thus, we have a few works of theirs, and the statements of their enemies (not always the most reliable sources, no?). The Cathari generally referred to themselves as Good Men or Good Christians (it is debatable whether the term Cathars was used by them - this AAR will strive to use Good Men and Good Christians when Cathari refer to each other), and it is clear that they rose in parallel with Bogomilists, and shared many beliefs with them.

Cathars seem to have risen quickly in the mid 12th century, finding popularity in the Rheinland (especially Cologne), France, and Northern Italy. There was cross-pollination with Bogomilists, culminating with the Council of Saint-Félix which was attended by Nicetas, the Bogomilist Bishop of Constantinople. They were able to flourish in the relatively liberal and open areas of Europe, and it is clear that Cathari teachings were popular not only with the masses, but also with Church officials. An entire cathedral chapter in Orleans defected to Catharism. The church found itself outmatched in open theological debates, losing adherents, priests, and even money (as Cathars refused to tithe).

The faiths were, quite simply, doomed to conflict. The Catholic Church reveres both the Old and New Testament, whereas the Cathars disowned the Old Testament. To the Cathars, the God of the Old Testament was the Demiurge (similar to the Devil). The Cathars believed that the world was created by the Demiurge, and thus all material things were corrupt and somewhat evil. Good things (souls, for example) were created by their Good God, the God of Light.

Cathars denigrated the feudal system, as it depended on oaths. To the Catholic Church of the period, the Feudal system was an extension of divine right, and it was the natural order of things. Cathars were closer to the original church in their belief in the evils of riches, whereas Catholic Bishops were notorious for living well. Even Pope Innocent III, the richest man in Christendom, noted of the Archbishop of Narbonne:

"…He knows no other god but money and has a purse where his heart should be. His monks and canons take mistresses and live by usury… Throughout the region the prelates are the laughing stock of the laity."

The Cathars also spurned the Catholic veneration of the cross and relics, as they were physical things. They refused to eat meat, believed in reincarnation, and believed non-procreative sex was superior to procreative sex (the opposite of the Catholic Church).

With the Cathars drawing from Catholic lands, nobles, priests, and believers, Catholicism could only react with reform, stunning theological arguments, or bloodshed.

Note: This post has been copied to Post #3, to serve as an introduction to the AAR.

[Franconian]

September 15, 1066, Pfalz

Edit:

They refused to eat meat

Oh god, what did we choose

believed non-procreative sex was superior to procreative sex (the opposite of the Catholic Church).

Oh well

[naggy]

Oh god, what did we choose

It is a little known fact that the rallying cry of the Albigensian Crusade was "For the Cheeseburgers!"

[Koson]

County of Narbonne - September 15, 1066.

[Avindian]

1066 -- Toulouse. If we're going Cathar, then let's go Cathar all the way!

[videonfan]

1066 Toulouse

[aldriq]

Toulouse 66.

[Seek75]

Pfalz, any date.

[Aardvark Bellay]

Toulouse 1066 or a County in 1150 already cathar, i'm split on this.

Btw, in the german wikipedia they explain the different levels of catharism, so if your are not priest-like, you may still be allowed to drink, eat meat and fornicate like a sailor as far as i understand. So as i understand its like in buddhism, where you can be supposed to be a supporter of your religion, but dont have to become a buddhist like the monks/buddhas (simplified here).

Your relationship to the clergy could be slightly difficult though (only simulated by roleplaying).

All hail the drunkard, greedy savior of the true faith !

[AlexanderPrimus]

Date and Place votes:

1150, in either Toulouse or Narbonne, whichever lets you have Carcasonne in your personal demesne, because Carcasonne is a wicked cool setting for a story!

[Hannibal X]

Pfalz as an independent, powerful duchy- anytime, preferably pre-Staufens.

[Dadarian]

Toulouse: 1066

You should've called the AAR "A few Good Men" XD, 'tis a clever pun me thinks

[naggy]

To integrate Cathar beliefs into the game, I am going create the following modifications:

1.) Gender equality - Cathars largely accepted women as equals to men.

• Cathar characters may change succession to Cognatic.
• Cathar characters will not have a relations penalty with a female ruler.
• Non-Basque Catholics will get a relations penalty against a Cathar ruler with Cognatic succession.
• If possible, I'll make AI Catholic rulers to prefer switching away from Cognatic.

2.) Anti-war - Cathars were anti-war, to the point that Parfaits did not fight to defend themselves in the Crusades. The ordinary Cathars did fight to defend themselves.

• If possible, Cathar bishops will not be able to lead armies
• Cathar characters will get a -10 relations penalty with a liege that has started an offensive war.