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Thread: In-depth Guide to CKII - Feedback Thread

  1. #1

    In-depth Guide to CKII - Feedback Thread

    I'd like to get feedback about my guide, and as the structure it follows doesn't allow that in the thread itself, I've created this thread.
    Any criticism is welcome as long as it is kept constructive. As I want it to be factually correct, anything shown to be objectively incorrect will be corrected. Anything subjective I'm happy to discuss.
    I'd also like ideas for further topic. My current list of potential topics are these:
    • Alliances
    • Traits and opinion modifiers
    Last edited by Meneth; 11-03-2012 at 22:18.
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  2. #2
    Captain pyroclastic's Avatar
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    Some suggestions and corrections on the CB post:

    De Jure: Mention County claim on a Barony. Mention that Kingdoms do NOT grant de jure claims on duchies, since this gets asked a lot.

    Invasion: You EITHER need an existing claim on the throne OR have the target be larger than you.

    Crusade and Religious: You only gain holdings that are unoccupied or occupied by you/your ally. This comes up on crusades when 20 different people are attacking the same target.

    Forging claims: These NEVER work above the duchy level, not "seldom". And you can only get a duchy claim if your chancellor has 15+ diplomacy (much more likely at 20+).

    Truces: They're one-sided, I think. If you attack me, I can still attack you back within 10 years.

    Excommunication: You missed that the ruler is forced to abdicate in favor of their heir. Also, the piety/prestige bonus scales with the size of the target.

  3. #3
    Lt. General thebigj_a's Avatar
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    Very good guide.

    You should put in that you can press barony claims for count vassals. For instance, as Duke of Apulia, one of your vassal prince-bishops has one of his de jure baronies controlled by the Pope. You can press his claims for that barony. (Not that I ever have tried. No way I'm attacking the Pope over a piddly little barony, for a guy who doesn't even like me!)

    In the tech section maybe talk about spies and stealing technology. I'm not even sure how it works. I had my spymaster in a province in Spain successfully steal a tech, and the popup said that tech went up by 1, but it's still at zero in my capitol. IDK. (Also he stopped being my Spymaster when that province was taken over by a rebellious vassal, which seemed strange. I was able to reappoint him immediately, though.)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pyroclastic View Post
    Some suggestions and corrections on the CB post:

    De Jure: Mention County claim on a Barony. Mention that Kingdoms do NOT grant de jure claims on duchies, since this gets asked a lot.

    Invasion: You EITHER need an existing claim on the throne OR have the target be larger than you.

    Crusade and Religious: You only gain holdings that are unoccupied or occupied by you/your ally. This comes up on crusades when 20 different people are attacking the same target.

    Forging claims: These NEVER work above the duchy level, not "seldom". And you can only get a duchy claim if your chancellor has 15+ diplomacy (much more likely at 20+).

    Truces: They're one-sided, I think. If you attack me, I can still attack you back within 10 years.

    Excommunication: You missed that the ruler is forced to abdicate in favor of their heir. Also, the piety/prestige bonus scales with the size of the target.
    Fixed/added 2 through 6.
    Could you explain the claim on Barony CB? I've never used it.
    Excommunication: Misread the code, seems it is the opponent's tier that matter, not your own. Corrected.
    Thank you for the corrections.
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    Lt. General thebigj_a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meneth View Post
    Could you explain the claim on Barony CB? I've never used it.
    I think he means what I described. Load up as the Duke of Apulia at 1066 (the second 1066 for certain, as it's the one I use, but I assume it's there for the first), and then try to dow the Pope and you'll see it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by thebigj_a View Post
    I think he means what I described. Load up as the Duke of Apulia at 1066 (the second 1066 for certain, as it's the one I use, but I assume it's there for the first), and then try to dow the Pope and you'll see it.
    Right, added in.

    Thanks to both of you for your feedback.
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  7. #7
    Captain pyroclastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigj_a View Post
    Very good guide.

    You should put in that you can press barony claims for count vassals. For instance, as Duke of Apulia, one of your vassal prince-bishops has one of his de jure baronies controlled by the Pope. You can press his claims for that barony. (Not that I ever have tried. No way I'm attacking the Pope over a piddly little barony, for a guy who doesn't even like me!)

    In the tech section maybe talk about spies and stealing technology. I'm not even sure how it works. I had my spymaster in a province in Spain successfully steal a tech, and the popup said that tech went up by 1, but it's still at zero in my capitol. IDK. (Also he stopped being my Spymaster when that province was taken over by a rebellious vassal, which seemed strange. I was able to reappoint him immediately, though.)
    The tech progress goes up by 1 stage, i.e. 1/10 of a full tech level.

  8. #8
    It's been very helpful so far. One thing you might consider adding is a quick explanation of how the interface works for each topic. For example, in the marriage section you could explain how the "spouse-finder" button works. Took me a long time to find it. Oh, and on the subject of marriage, you probably should explain that marriages are arranged by the liege, not the person getting married/targeted.

    In the Feudal System section, I think you should explain the different types of vassals (noble, mayor, priest, etc.) and holdings, and how they work. I've seen many people asking about the "wrong government type"/"'wrong holding type" modifiers.

  9. #9
    I am so glad you are doing this! The guide is getting better and better.

    Note that both the player and AI automatically surrender after they reach -100% warscore reached, and that if liege and vassal are fighting separate wars for the same objective, victory for one ends the other's war inconclusively (so it is a race). When additional wars are also involved in the same territory, it gets even more complicated.

    Women can still get pregnant while age 45.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyroclastic View Post
    Invasion: You EITHER need an existing claim on the throne OR have the target be larger than you.
    I assume the holding count must include all vassals of the ruler you declare war against. I have an unanswered question out there to confirm whether the target holding count is based on de jure or de facto holdings. Might be useful to find out and mention.

    Clarify what qualifies for an alliance. Membership in same dynasty, or spouses each being of the immediate family of their own ruler (IIRC just child or sibling counts).

    Crusader is a very useful trait - to get it the conquest needs to be victorious, but I can't find whether or not the character just needs to have fought in that war or must be present at the objective upon victory (or somewhere in between).

    I need to look through my notes and the revised guide and look for more items to suggest later.

  10. #10
    Aedile Demi Moderator Tamerlan's Avatar
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    Excellent posts .

    A few comments about the construction section .

    There is no talk of ports and town levels in cities. It seems though that with investments of 100 coins for a +2.5 coins per year these buildings seem to pay back in 40 years and hence can be very valuable. With a "wrong ruler" holding, even with a -50% income penalty, they pay back in 80 years. Under a mayor, they may pay you back in 160 years (or a bit more), although I wonder if mayors invest their own income in buildings (in which case these would still be very valuable investments).

    It may be worth talking about new settlements, how cost worthy they are. Some may pay back in 150 years (less in mayors carry out their own upgrades).
    Last edited by Tamerlan; 26-02-2012 at 11:57.

  11. #11
    I think you should expand 'religion' section to include orthodox differences:
    - bishops ALWAYS pay you money
    - there is no free investiture
    - no crusades
    - no appointing successors for bishop
    - no anti-patriarch too
    And this change many tactics in another sections. For example orthodox monastery in many ways better then city (more troops with quite decent taxes and don't forget schools!)

  12. #12
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    Adult vassals can convert to a faith in a different religion group, either through a Chaplain or if ordered to by you (or if you're a vassal yourself) your liege. The section on religion is far too Cathlo-centric.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Garnet View Post
    Note that both the player and AI automatically surrender after they reach -100% warscore reached, and that if liege and vassal are fighting separate wars for the same objective, victory for one ends the other's war inconclusively (so it is a race). When additional wars are also involved in the same territory, it gets even more complicated.
    True that. Added a note about it.

    Women can still get pregnant while age 45.
    Thanks, corrected from 45 to 46.

    I assume the holding count must include all vassals of the ruler you declare war against. I have an unanswered question out there to confirm whether the target holding count is based on de jure or de facto holdings. Might be useful to find out and mention.
    I think it is based on de facto holdings, but I'm not actually sure. I'll try to remember to test it.

    Clarify what qualifies for an alliance. Membership in same dynasty, or spouses each being of the immediate family of their own ruler (IIRC just child or sibling counts).
    Thanks, clarified.

    Crusader is a very useful trait - to get it the conquest needs to be victorious, but I can't find whether or not the character just needs to have fought in that war or must be present at the objective upon victory (or somewhere in between).
    You get it the moment you enter the crusade target area. Added a note on it.

    I need to look through my notes and the revised guide and look for more items to suggest later.
    Thank you very much for your suggestions/corrections so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlan View Post
    There is no talk of ports and town levels in cities. It seems though that with investments of 100 coins for a +2.5 coins per year these buildings seem to pay back in 40 years and hence can be very valuable. With a "wrong ruler" holding, even with a -50% income penalty, they pay back in 80 years. Under a mayor, they may pay you back in 160 years (or a bit more), although I wonder if mayors invest their own income in buildings (in which case these would still be very valuable investments).
    Building in your vassals' holdings is mentioned, using towns as an example of why it doesn't pay off compared to building in your own. The wrong holding type penalty is -75% now, not 50%. It is true your vassals will be able to reinvest, but you get much the same benefit from your own holdings.

    It may be worth talking about new settlements, how cost worthy they are. Some may pay back in 150 years (less in mayors carry out their own upgrades).
    Thanks for the suggestion. Added a note on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexar_kg View Post
    I think you should expand 'religion' section to include orthodox differences:
    - bishops ALWAYS pay you money
    - there is no free investiture
    - no crusades
    - no appointing successors for bishop
    - no anti-patriarch too
    And this change many tactics in another sections. For example orthodox monastery in many ways better then city (more troops with quite decent taxes and don't forget schools!)
    Added in a small section on that, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzhang (譚張) View Post
    Adult vassals can convert to a faith in a different religion group, either through a Chaplain or if ordered to by you (or if you're a vassal yourself) your liege. The section on religion is far too Cathlo-centric.
    Thanks, added a note on that.
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  14. #14
    Aedile Demi Moderator Tamerlan's Avatar
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    Building in your vassals' holdings is mentioned, using towns as an example of why it doesn't pay off compared to building in your own. The wrong holding type penalty is -75% now, not 50%. It is true your vassals will be able to reinvest, but you get much the same benefit from your own holdings.
    Well, it seems I get actually half of the revenue of my cities (that's twice as much as what is mentionned so it is actually quite a big difference). It's possible that my burghers law impact, I am not sure, but it seems fairly easy to achieve.

    And you don't mention ports, which also make quite a lot of money .

    About tax http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post13487477 .

    For indirect tax, as a king, how does the maximization work ? Does the change of tax level impact on the relations between the dukes and the counts as much as between the dukes and the king ?
    Last edited by Tamerlan; 26-02-2012 at 14:10.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlan View Post
    And you don't mention ports, which also make quite a lot of money .
    Ports give income equal to city markets, so I don't see the point of mentioning them in particular.

    For indirect tax, as a king, how does the maximization work ? Does the change of tax level impact on the relations between the dukes and the counts as much as between the dukes and the king ?
    Every liege has his own tax laws for his direct vassals. Your tax laws don't affect your vassals' tax laws, nor impact their relations to their vassals.
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    Aedile Demi Moderator Tamerlan's Avatar
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    Right so for the -75% penalty, just a bit of testing.

    The mayor has a +7 opinion of his liege (me), so he gives 2.99 coins out of 12.96.

    I get rid of him so now the city is under my direct control and I get 7.38 coins out of 12.20 coins (despite the wrong government type penalty, stated as -75%)...

    I have got my steward collecting tax there (so providing a +37.5% tax income boost according to the tooltip and -2% due to some events)... 12.2 * (1-0.75+0.375-0.02)=7.38

    Ports give income equal to city markets, so I don't see the point of mentioning them in particular.
    Yeah well, it depends how exhaustive you want to be I guess .
    Last edited by Tamerlan; 26-02-2012 at 14:38.

  17. #17
    You can also build new holdings in a county if there are free holding slots. Doing so costs 700 gold.
    This is not right. Cost is affected by number of actual holdings: second is cheaper then third.
    Second - 500g
    Third - 600g
    4th - 700g
    5th - 800g
    6th - 900g
    7th - 1000g

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexar_kg View Post
    This is not right. Cost is affected by number of actual holdings: second is cheaper then third.
    Second - 500g
    Third - 600g
    4th - 700g
    5th - 800g
    6th - 900g
    7th - 1000g
    Oh, didn't know that. Thanks. Will update that.
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  19. #19
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    Just wanted to say, brilliant guide. I've played CK2 a lot since its release and figured out a lot (a lot more than I usually do in a Paradox game!) but this has really helped flesh out my understanding of this fine game. Thank you!
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  20. #20
    I've had a woman - the liege's stepmother, during the course of a 27 year extramarital affair - get pregnant and successfully give birth at age 53. Didn't think to take a screenshot but I did tell my friends about it.

    Re: 45 vs 46 birth age limit

    Come to think of it though, it might be that affairs are a different mechanic altogether, given that they fire events that give % chances that the mistress gets pregnant which might themselves be a much higher potential chance than would exist given a marriage.
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