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Thread: Italy too weak 1936

  1. #1

    Italy too weak 1936

    I think that Italy is too weak both in 1933 and 1936 scenario, especially in naval sector. Because it's very difficult to complete all six battleships in costruction queue especially for the AI. I think that a slighty increase of IC (70?) or peacetime ic modifier increased plus a bluprints for carrier 1922, would be great. Please add few more event/decision, like:
    Fall of yugoslavian navy, add 1-2 destroyer (Dubrovnik, Ljubjana,Beograd, plus six T class torpedoboat) and 1 submarine flotilla (Smeli,Ostvenik,Hrabri)
    Scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon, add 2-4 destroyes (Lion,Valmy, Panthère,Tigre,Trombe,Le Siroco,L'Adroit,Lansquenet,Bison,Le Foudroyant,Le Hardi, plus five "610 Tonnes" class torpedo boat), 2 light cruisers (Jean de Vienne,La Galissonére) 2 submarine. (Phoque,Espadon,Requin,Dauphin,Saphir,Turquoise,Ci rcé,Henri Poincaré,Aurore) in costruction queue in order to simulate repairs.
    Siamese cruisers, add in costruction queue 2 light cruisers (Etna and Vesuvio)
    AOI Army, add few garrison in order to bolster the defense of AOI

  2. #2
    The ai is too weak, but Italy did suck in WWII.
    "If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

    Bloody, Bloody Sunday WWCLIII

  3. #3
    I noticed that in the 36 oob there are naval bombors but only in 1940 Italy form naval bomber units.

  4. #4
    Considering all this, if anything, Italy is too strong, as the game doesn't simulate this kind of thing.
    Most Serene

    (Currently working on: Mod1914)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenissima View Post
    Considering all this, if anything, Italy is too strong, as the game doesn't simulate this kind of thing.
    While true, we want to have fun. How is a wimpy Italy fun? Unless you are playing Germany. Then it can be.
    "If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

    Bloody, Bloody Sunday WWCLIII

  6. #6
    Italy had an economy big enough to compete with the big players in Europe, but not big enough to do everything they needed to win.

    Italy had to have a strong army, air force and navy, but their industry wasn't up to all three tasks so all three were less than they should have been. Every account of Italy's performance was man to man, they were definitely the equals of their British or US counterparts. It was their lack of heavy equipment, artillery, adequate air/naval cover that got them into losing battles. And for the most part their generals weren't too good. Bastico and Messe being the two big exceptions. Boosting Bastico's stats would be a good thing to consider.

    The AI is hardly perfect, but seems to depict this pretty well. If anything, I just wish we'd see more Operation Husky like scenarios by the AI. I see them roll up through Greece more often than I do Italy.

    Also, instead of relying on the expeditionary force use from Germany for help, I think that there should be an event that just creates some units under Italian control in North Africa. The Duesch Afrika Korps, give them Rommel and a few other German commanders with high skill. Give the German player the option to trigger an event that recalls them and the commanders if things start going badly in North Africa and remove the Italian units from the scenario, creating some German units(with low health to simulate casualties) they took back in Europe, while giving the commanders back to Germany too.

    I think that would do a lot to make North Africa more interesting and give the Axis a chance in an AI game.
    "You all may go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett

  7. #7
    Major vcgetdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstar17 View Post
    Italy had an economy big enough to compete with the big players in Europe, but not big enough to do everything they needed to win.

    Italy had to have a strong army, air force and navy, but their industry wasn't up to all three tasks so all three were less than they should have been. Every account of Italy's performance was man to man, they were definitely the equals of their British or US counterparts. It was their lack of heavy equipment, artillery, adequate air/naval cover that got them into losing battles. And for the most part their generals weren't too good. Bastico and Messe being the two big exceptions. Boosting Bastico's stats would be a good thing to consider.

    The AI is hardly perfect, but seems to depict this pretty well. If anything, I just wish we'd see more Operation Husky like scenarios by the AI. I see them roll up through Greece more often than I do Italy.

    Also, instead of relying on the expeditionary force use from Germany for help, I think that there should be an event that just creates some units under Italian control in North Africa. The Duesch Afrika Korps, give them Rommel and a few other German commanders with high skill. Give the German player the option to trigger an event that recalls them and the commanders if things start going badly in North Africa and remove the Italian units from the scenario, creating some German units(with low health to simulate casualties) they took back in Europe, while giving the commanders back to Germany too.

    I think that would do a lot to make North Africa more interesting and give the Axis a chance in an AI game.
    I agree, I think this would add a dynamic to italy that is otherwise missing. The only thing I could see being an issue with how you described it, would be doctrines for the afrika korp. If they didn't keep german doctrines that just wouldn't be the same
    As it is right now italy is just insignificant. With the AI, italy will lose the vast majority of it's army losing italy horribly and from that it will never come close to recovering.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by super64 View Post
    I think that Italy is too weak both in 1933 and 1936 scenario, especially in naval sector. Because it's very difficult to complete all six battleships in costruction queue especially for the AI. I think that a slighty increase of IC (70?) or peacetime ic modifier increased plus a bluprints for carrier 1922, would be great.
    We've tweaked the 1936 OOB so that it is easier to afford the battleships in the queue which represent rebuilds/overhauls (the Cavour and Doria classes).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by taffy3 View Post
    We've tweaked the 1936 OOB so that it is easier to afford the battleships in the queue which represent rebuilds/overhauls (the Cavour and Doria classes).
    is it TRP? but in TRP there were events to create elite troops and tanks, maybe get a couple of those incorporated into africa as well for Italian Libya?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatguts View Post
    is it TRP? but in TRP there were events to create elite troops and tanks, maybe get a couple of those incorporated into africa as well for Italian Libya?
    Err, no, sorry, I was referring to Darkest Hour. The change will be in the next patch.

    Basically, the problem is that the engine re-checks and resets the cost of anything in the build queue back to what it thinks it should be, regardless of what the scenario file defines as the cost. Martin recently implemented a command to override that, and we made use of it in the OOBs to adjust the cost of the naval overhauls that we were modeling. (so, it's now used for the Japanese Kongo-class battlecruisers, too)

  11. #11
    Thanks, this is a good news!
    Any chance to add some more events to Italy?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by super64 View Post
    Thanks, this is a good news!
    Any chance to add some more events to Italy?
    I don't know of any new ones that have been implemented. If you have suggestions, post them.
    One thing that did get done for Italy is a total overhauling of its 1933 and 1936 OOBs. It's a lot saner now.

  13. #13
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    Italy is one of those countries that are hard to model because it had a large industrial base and a large army, but failed at using both effectively. And the historians disagree some on why

    One thing is that organizational problems severed the Italian industry to produce both quantity and quality, while the Italian Army lacked the moral and unity that came to characterize professional armies from the 30s and onwards.

    Problem is Italy did not nearly perform as good as she should on paper. And hence, with the current setup she has to be a-priori nerfed so she is not capable of achieving more than she did historically. Italy, given the economic and military characteristics she theoretically should is a Mediterranean powerhouse that with ease could conquer Northern Africa and the Middle East alone. For the human player, it already is a cakewalk

  14. #14
    My biggest annoyance with Italy is the forced democratic revolution if you ally Italy with the Allies. Believe it or not Mussolini wasn't always chummy with Hitler. They nearly went to war over Austrian annexation into Germany in 1933-4 in reality for example.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstar17 View Post
    My biggest annoyance with Italy is the forced democratic revolution if you ally Italy with the Allies. Believe it or not Mussolini wasn't always chummy with Hitler. They nearly went to war over Austrian annexation into Germany in 1933-4 in reality for example.
    Thats right.

    Hitler tried Anschluss with Austria first in 1934, however was stopped by Italy's Mussolini, who told Hitler that if he took one step into the country, he would take military action on him. At that point, they were even closer to war than in 1936.

  16. #16
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    My dad told me a story that his own father, who served in the 8th army told him, about Australian soldiers bayonetting Italian POWs through the foot to stop them escaping since they didn't have nearly enough men to guard them.
    So, yeah. Italy is fail. Only problem really is Germany doesn't lend them a hand. There should be some kind of decision that gives Italy some blueprints/panzer divs.

  17. #17
    With hindsight, that's especially cruel and pointless... because those Italian POWs were unlikely to want to escape in the first place.
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  18. #18
    Yeah well, the US and Germany both routinely executed pow's if they couldn't be burdened by them. It's part of war tragically.
    "You all may go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett

  19. #19
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    .... but the AI did complete 6 BB in mine ... & give me '1944 gift' by sending Formidable, Victorius & Eagle to the bottom of Mediteranean sea ..

  20. #20
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    They need more IC at least 80 for 5 research team early on , better peace time IC efficiency maybe through some event , i manage to bypass that by not annexing Ethiopia , kept the war on until im ready to go war with great Britain

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