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Byzantine is a modern name given to the post 480 AD Roman Empire by the HRE's (a stupid fake barbarian kingdom) fanboys who just couldn't accept that HRE was actually a nation built by migrating unwashed barbarian tribes who first destroyed civilization and then claimed to be a part of it. And then went on to force the little slave bishop with a funny hat named Leo III to crown their warlord the emperor of a power their ancestors helped in destroying. ALL THE WHILE the real empire survived in the east, severely weakened, but still alive.

Kind of like some Somalian man crowning some Sudanese terrorist as the president of USA, or Premier of China and then claiming that the real one is not the real one, just because it is not populated by the same people as their own nation.

Yeah, shots fired. :p

Hell yeah! Civitas bitches! :D
 
Byzantine is a modern name given to the post 480 AD Roman Empire by the HRE's (a stupid fake barbarian kingdom) fanboys who just couldn't accept that HRE was actually a nation built by migrating unwashed barbarian tribes who first destroyed civilization and then claimed to be a part of it. And then went on to force the little slave bishop with a funny hat named Leo III to crown their warlord the emperor of a power their ancestors helped in destroying. ALL THE WHILE the real empire survived in the east, severely weakened, but still alive.

Kind of like some Somalian man crowning some Sudanese terrorist as the president of USA, or Premier of China and then claiming that the real one is not the real one, just because it is not populated by the same people as their own nation.

Yeah, shots fired. :p

Agreed. I always knew the HRE was a German empire falsely claiming to be Roman. I also know that the Byzantine Empire/Medieval Roman Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire.

In my other comment, I only remarked that the Byzantines were not culturally the exact same as the ancient traditional Romans we are used to.
 
Agreed. I always knew the HRE was a German empire falsely claiming to be Roman. I also know that the Byzantine Empire/Medieval Roman Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire.

In my other comment, I only remarked that the Byzantines were not culturally the exact same as the ancient traditional Romans we are used to.

The "German" (western) states that falsely claim to be the continuation of the (Greco)Roman are still ongoinhg. It just requires another level of research to figure it out...
 
Why is the Western Roman Empire the 'Roman Empire' while the Eastern Roman Empire is not?

Because it was actually headed by Romans (mostly) in Rome. And it contained Rome.

The Catholic Church is more of a successor to Rome than the Empire of the Greeks could ever hope to be outside of prideful boasting and fanciful stylings.

The Byzantine Empire is just about as Roman as the HRE in the sense that neither were ruled by Romans, governed Rome fully, or even spoke Latin...

Legally, most medieval entities who followed any sort of law followed Roman law. But if I started wearing a Fez and a Dashiki that would not make me African, just like wearing the trappings of the Roman Empire did not make the Greek Empire Roman... nor did it make the Holy German Empire any more Roman...
 
I think you're omitting the 'migration' of every much concerning Rome to Byzantium(Constantinople) when the capital was changed. And Rome was not even the capital of the WRE, not even 1 in 2! So any attempt to say that 'Rome was in the WRE' is really futile. Rome was under the ERE for far longer than within the WRE anyway :D
 
Sometimes I think that everyone here are on drugs...
 
And Rome was not even the capital of the WRE, not even 1 in 2!

No, sorry, that is just plain false. The Roman Senate continued to exist as the governing body of the Roman Empire alongside the Emperor until its twilight days.

Were even responsible for choosing most of the last Emperors personally from the ranks of the military as military dictators.

And as far as your comment about Constantinople being the capital longer than Rome... that is laughable.

Roman Empire: 27 BC-476 AD
Consecration of Constantinople as the new capital: 330 AD.

That's over 3/5 of the life of the Empire with the official Imperial and administrative seat at Rome.

Now that doesn't even count the influence of the SPQR (the Roman senate in Rome) in Roman politics... we can't forget that the Roman Empire was never a hereditary absolute monarchy. That would be the Byzantine Empire you were thinking about... a different political institution that claims continuity although effectively it was a completely different beast.

P.S. I think it is also laughable if you consider the Byzantine Empire following Manzikert to be a worth political institution to hold the title of Roman Empire.
 
No, sorry, that is just plain false. The Roman Senate continued to exist as the governing body of the Roman Empire alongside the Emperor until its twilight days.

Were even responsible for choosing most of the last Emperors personally from the ranks of the military as military dictators.

The Roman Senate lost its true purpose when Rome fell... Its function was not to serve the Roman Empire but to serve the pockets of those within the Senate. And they spent lots of time begging the ERE to help them. I think it was dissolved in the 8th century anyway.

And as far as your comment about Constantinople being the capital longer than Rome... that is laughable.
I never said that.

I said that Rome was part of the ERE for more years than the WRE. Was some sort of an exaggeration but still, it's close.

1 in 2 = Milano and Ravenna being the two capitals. Rome wasn't even one of the two capitals the WRE had. Capitals don't matter that much but the problem with the Romans is that their identity lies with Rome. There have been many major states that have switched capitals and never went back, that hasn't changed their identity though.

Now that doesn't even count the influence of the SPQR (the Roman senate in Rome) in Roman politics... we can't forget that the Roman Empire was never a hereditary absolute monarchy. That would be the Byzantine Empire you were thinking about... a different political institution that claims continuity although effectively it was a completely different beast.

P.S. I think it is also laughable if you consider the Byzantine Empire following Manzikert to be a worth political institution to hold the title of Roman Empire.

I agree that the system of the ERE was different and had developed differently. But the foundations were based in Rome, the administration came from Rome, the system was Roman etc...

I think the ERE stopped being the Roman Empire in 1204 when they realized that Rome was further away than expected. Manzikert was definitely a step backwards but it's also laughable imo to assume that the Roman Empire was the WRE during its fall. Rome was not invincible so a major defeat does not make something less Roman.

It wasn't a "Greek" empire till 1204. And it has fallen in 1453 and that's the end date of the entity of 'Rome'.
 
I personally would like to see a Fall of Rome > Dark ages game. The start could be 300 AD (Nice solid number) and end in 700/800 AD. I was always that weird guy that liked Barbarian Invasion more than Vanilla Rome Total war. It is just more interesting.
 
But the foundations were based in Rome, the administration came from Rome, the system was Roman etc...

Actually that is not the case. The Roman Law that governed citizens of the Byzantine Empire was just about all that came from Rome.

Everything else was derived primarily from the tradition of the absolute hereditary monarchs of Greek Mesopotamia and Egypt. The legacy of Alexander, not the Republican legacy of Rome.

The Emperor of the actual Roman Empire before its degeneration into a Greek splinter state ruled by a hereditary autocrat was not even a real head of state, he was a military dictator, subject to the whims of the Patrician class of Rome on more levels than just by forced deposition. He actually had to work with the wealthy classes of Rome to get anything done.

The "Emperor" of Byzantium was really just a puffed-up despot who wore the trappings of a figment of collective imagination - the Roman Emperor, supreme ruler of the known world. That entity in reality never existed, as the Emperor never made any lasting achievements without the full support, won through genuine respect and cooperation, of the Roman Senate and Patricians. The autocratic Byzantine Emperor, on the other hand, was an absolute monarch in the fashion of the military Kingdoms left behind in the wake of Alexander the Great (a Greek with no republican ideals or ties to Roman administration.)

And, to cap off my response, I would sooner consider the Serbian and Bulgarian "Empires" as legitimate Imperial states before I consider the pittance of land controlled by Byzantium post-Manzikert, or furthermore post-1204, to be a legitimate Empire in the dictionary sense of the term. They were something much closer to a nation-state under an autocratic Despotate at this time, again, wearing the same trappings of grandeur that they hoped (and failed) to emulate, with less and less legitimacy as every decade passed.

What the Ottomans conquered was a battered and decayed carcass of a Kingdom that had died over 200 years prior, after clinging on, even before that, to the dead concept of a global empire that it could never obtain.
 
I partly agree. But there was a period of transition from Roman to let's say 'eastern' type of government. This is actually one of my only objections to what you have said.
 
One of the best aspects of my definition (that the Eternal Rome is a cultural continuum) is that I don't have to worry if the Eastern Roman Empire has bigger right for the Roman heritage than for example Roman Gaul, City of Rome or Roman Britain. From the point of view of intellectual and cultural history it's not even important who had the most legitimate claim, but what matters is how the people saw themselves and the ideal of Rome.

And when I don't have to worry about the successors of the Empire (which aren't really that relevant in a discussion about an ancient era game), I can focus my attention to earlier times and dream about EU: Rome II, which would also have Roman kingdom and early republic. (One of my biggest issues with the original EU: Rome's start date was that in it the Italy was already united under the Roman rule and I missed all the interesting wars against Etruscans, Umbri, Samnites, Latin cities etc.)
 
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I partly agree. But there was a period of transition from Roman to let's say 'eastern' type of government. This is actually one of my only objections to what you have said.

Well, I'm glad we agree (especially since I'm pretty sure it was you I was having this argument with on this very thread over 6 months ago, :rofl: ).

I will concede that the time between the fall of the Empire in the West and the reign of Justinian I, the nobility of the empire was still very latinized.

I would say that Justinian would have been the last Emperor of Rome as a whole, but for the fact that he was a totally absolute might-makes-right monarch who ruled through military domination of his subjects, noble and otherwise, in stark contrast with the more nuanced politics of the SPQR days. But Justinian's reign definitely marked the decline of regard for latin culture proper (not including borrowed words that found their way into Medieval Greek), and his legal reforms were definitely in the old Roman spirit.

So, even while we still see a very Roman noble culture in this period you are referring to, the political machinations had drifted quite far from the Empire of Augustus and Trajan. But this was really true of the ERE even before 400s, where it was in a disconnected state from the West and was proceeding along a much more authoritarian path.

Also, the heavy change brought on by the migration of Barbarian tribes had made such a tremendous imprint on the cultural fabric of most of the territories of the whole Roman Empire, East and West, that the idea of a Roman Empire was well past its' expiration date upon the coronation of Justinian I, and the fate of the Empire he left behind is well indicative of the new perceptions that vassals and neighbors of Byzantium both held for it.

This is what I mean when I say that the Empire wore the trappings and failed, though it proclaimed itself the Roman Empire, neither the major power players within or without the Byzantine Empire held the kind of regard for the Basileus that they would have for the Imperator. And I think that is a good place to draw a line between a new Empire and an old one.

Ah yes, the Republican tradition of Rome that would have been as foreign to Romans as the teachings of Confucius.

Sure it would be foreign to the average Roman. A republic is not an all-inclusive democracy, and as such only the participants in the democratic aspects of it ever really perceive it as such... But to the power players of the city of Rome, and by extension, its Empire, the Republic was a very real thing. Just look at the influence that the Senators of Rome had in choosing Emperors even in the final days of Rome... look how the greatest Emperors throughout Roman history had to struggle to obtain the respect of the senate to accomplish their goals.
 
I'm not arguing against the change of 'Rome' throughout the years or after the city of Rome fell. To me it's obvious that the ERE is the continuation of Rome. A changed continuation of course. In the same way you cannot say that the Kingdom of Rome and the Roman Empire aren't related you cannot say that the ERE is not part of the same entity.

So we can draw a line for when this change became, let's say official, but I don' think there's an argument to seperate the two entities. The change is obvious though. And in 1204 there was not even a talk about regaining Rome anymore and it was the first time since the split that the leadership wanted to promote the Greekness of the area. Prior to that the Greeks were oppressed and forced to convert to Christianity so as they "do not cause problems".
 
I believe the argument has always been about when Rome 2's timeline should end :)

Yeah it's a tricky one but one approach is to make one game focusing on 330 to 27 BC and then add some expansions extending the timeline beyond that to say 767 (up to CK2 Charlemagne). Add in a converter tool and prepare for a mega campaign 330 BC - 1821 AD.
 
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