"Homosexual" should have more events surrounding other gay courtiers or nobles

[Shn]

Shn: in certain parts of the world, absoloutely 110% are there places in the world where the murder of children is considered better than homosexuality.

I didn't say "Are there some parts of the world where it's worse?" though, I said, "Do you think there are more people offended by homosexuality than child murder?", since the argument is apparently just about how many people in the world find something offensive.

Edit: Let's bear in mind a game as mainstream and family-friendly as The Sims 3 allows you to have gay relationships, gay sex and gay marriage. Are we seriously saying the customer base of Paradox is less tolerant that that of The Sims 3?

Edit 2: Obviously I'm not saying there should be gay marriage in CK2, it was just an example of homosexuality in another game, in case anyone misunderstood. I think it should be possible to have a gay lover though.

[Nick B II]

The really key thing is that the idea of homosexual identity is anachronistic. People wouldn't have viewed someone known to have engaged in homosexual acts as "a homosexual" (and I don't just mean the word is modern), nor would the man himself. Why would they? The thought simply wouldn't occur because the whole frame of reference didn't exist. They, and himself, might regard him as someone who had sinned, and if powerless he might face a chance of brutal punishment. But there was nothing particularly special about the sin in question, it was a sin of lust, but it didn't form part of his identity in the way it would in later centuries.

Here's the thing:
We're not talking about giving these characters an identity, with it's own sub-culture. There have been no proposals for events relating to Musical Theatre, or other non-sexual aspects of homosexuality.

The simple fact is that some people are sexually attracted to the same gender. Most people aren't. CK2's designers have chosen to include both kinds. Since sex is usually involved with romance having gay romance events makes sense. They'll have to be altered, because it's not like you can proclaim your homosexuality from the rooftops, but they should be there. You'll note these events aren't gay-only, they're simply gay versions of the events straight people get, which have to be different because it's unlikely a gay King would fall in love with a Duchess.

Since same-sex attraction can only lead to sinful sex it makes sense for characters who fell those emotions, and are faithful sons of the Church, would be conflicted. This too isn't a gay-only event. Lustful straight characters, gluttons, and anyone else with a trait the Church clearly doesn't approve of should get similar events.

Nick

[Tempestra]

Apparently the Bulgarian Orthodox Church used to marry men to one another.

[Splorghley]

1.) They would all be negative and suddenly the community would be up in arms over that. Or if they weren't, the community would be up in arms over it.

The LGBT community doesn't get up in arms over things it doesn't like, it gets up in arms over things that are inaccurate. Making homosexuality have some additional penalties is entirely realistic for the era in question. No one is seeking to impose anachronistic equality on a barbarous age. On the other hand, making homosexuality correlate with effeminacy or lustfulness or whatever, isn't realistic and would be rather offensive. It would be like making all Irish characters drunkards, or all Poles pious. Tired stereotypes != reality.

2.) Homosexuality, whether you agree with it or not, is a controversial subject in most of the world.

Yes, I imagine all of Paradox's vast Ugandan market will be up in arms. Millions will be lost!

This game is, by and large, sold to a Western market. This game, by its very title, has a relatively limited cross-cultural appeal.

They would be alienating customers by pandering to the homosexual community and supporters by adding events that could offend their other customers.

I didn't realise that acknowledging the mere reality of a people's existence is now 'pandering'. You're essentially falling back on a misplaced sense of majority privilege to deny a minority the mere option of pursuing something no one else is likely to be forced into, knowing how Paradox tends to write its games. To quote David Gaider from BioWare: "[Majority gamers are] so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don’t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what’s everyone’s fuss all about? That’s the way it should be, and everyone else should be used to not getting what they want." This game contains hundreds of events relating to heterosexuality. Hundreds. It contains next to none referring to homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with making strides towards a more equitable representation.

[Diet of Worms]

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know if this event purporting to be a way of beating the homosexuality out of your ward are a) real, b) used, and c) really such a good idea... (not talking about the brutality, more the realism of the approach being successful) - it is from the something awful forum, but the paradox forum won't let me link to the post.

# Homosexual Ward
character_event = {
	id = 38234
	desc = "EVTDESC38234"
	picture = "GFX_evt_child_play"
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA38234" #Make the child fast to atone for its sins
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 10
			
			modifier = {
				factor = 9
				trait = zealous
			}
		}
		FROM = {
			random = {
				chance = 20
				
				remove_trait = homosexual
				opinion = {
					modifier = opinion_mad_at_guardian
					who = ROOT
					years = 5
				}
			}
		}
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB38234" #Try to beat it out of him/her
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 10
			
			modifier = {
				factor = 9
				trait = cruel
			}
		}
		FROM = {
			random = {
				chance = 10
				
				remove_trait = homosexual
				opinion = {
					modifier = opinion_mad_at_guardian
					who = ROOT
					years = 5
				}
			}
		}
	}

[Frezzin]

The LGBT community doesn't get up in arms over things it doesn't like, it gets up in arms over things that are inaccurate. Making homosexuality have some additional penalties is entirely realistic for the era in question. No one is seeking to impose anachronistic equality on a barbarous age. On the other hand, making homosexuality correlate with effeminacy or lustfulness or whatever, isn't realistic and would be rather offensive. It would be like making all Irish characters drunkards, or all Poles pious. Tired stereotypes != reality.

I'm not sure of your point. The homosexual trait doesn't come with some kind of effeminate addition to it. The penalties aren't defined, just given. You can make up your own reasons for them.

Yes, I imagine all of Paradox's vast Ugandan market will be up in arms. Millions will be lost!

This game is, by and large, sold to a Western market. This game, by its very title, has a relatively limited cross-cultural appeal.

Some western nations embrace it. Others do not. Don't fall into that trap and paint everyone with the same brush. More people disagree with homosexuality than agree/accept it in the western world.

I didn't realise that acknowledging the mere reality of a people's existence is now 'pandering'. You're essentially falling back on a misplaced sense of majority privilege to deny a minority the mere option of pursuing something no one else is likely to be forced into, knowing how Paradox tends to write its games. To quote David Gaider from BioWare: "[Majority gamers are] so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don’t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what’s everyone’s fuss all about? That’s the way it should be, and everyone else should be used to not getting what they want." This game contains hundreds of events relating to heterosexuality. Hundreds. It contains next to none referring to homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with making strides towards a more equitable representation.

He's talking about whole games here, not individual aspects of ones. I agree that games should not be made to pander to majority gamers. And you're comparing apples to oranges here. Homosexuality, like abortion, is a very divided and serious social/cultural issue. It's not the same as deciding whether you make an RPG style grand strategy game versus a traditional grand strategy game.

PI is also a company who needs/wants to make a profit on it's offerings. The best way to do that, is not to offend a bunch of potential customers due to activism development.

[Aubrielle]

Some western nations embrace it. Others do not. Don't fall into that trap and paint everyone with the same brush. More people disagree with homosexuality than agree/accept it in the western world.

Really, now? Some poll results/numbers to back this up? *I've* heard that more Americans (I can't speak for Canadians, Australians, Brits, or any Western non-English speaking group, but I assume that most of them are generally more tolerant than Americans) are indifferent to homosexuality than hung up about it. Those that *are* might have issues of their own to work out, more often than not. Of course, unless you're getting your figures from Fox News...then you can expect all kinds of wild results...

Let's face it. In terms of accuracy, this *did* happen, and does happen. People are gay. Get over it. It happened in the Middle Ages, and there *were* ramifications...as someone mentioned above, the Church didn't like it, and from at least 1000 on, a man could get himself burned at the stake for it...punishments toward lesbians might have been less strenuous, but we don't have as many mentions of them. In Viking Age Scandinavia, gays weren't punished, per se, but gay men could be outcast and ridiculed. There's lots of role playing and character development possibilities.

*If* people aren't scared to think about it. And if they are, well...there's therapists.

[Quboid]

I'm not sure of your point. The homosexual trait doesn't come with some kind of effeminate addition to it. The penalties aren't defined, just given. You can make up your own reasons for them.

I think that is his point, that the present implementation doesn't have any of the offensive stuff - he's praising the game's simple, matter-of-fact system. That's not to say it shouldn't have more events (IMHO, I can't speak for Splorghley); but then, everything should have more events because more events is always better.

[bitparity]

All I'm saying is if prima noctae (which didn't exist) can be in the game, surely more events tailored to characters with the homosexual trait, should be in the game, as it would make the character drama more interesting and more fun. Simple as that.

I said "more." Not "a ton" or "only those that're historically accurate."

[Selenimar]

All I'm saying is if prima noctae (which didn't exist) can be in the game, surely more events tailored to characters with the homosexual trait, should be in the game, as it would make the character drama more interesting and more fun.

Forums indicate that the gates of Hell are in the game. If we assume that to be the limit of the occasional crazy CK2 permits, rainbow knight pride parades suggested on the previous page seem well within reason. I'd love to see the GUI art for that one, when I get the game eventually.

Actually this one perk might be a perfect ground to introduce hidden character traits which have effect, but are unseen until revealed by spying or events. A seemingly straight heir could turn out to have the homosexual trait, but the player will find out about it only upon inheriting, or in the course of some social occasion. Could make in-house education more desirable if it were to improve the odds of getting trait-revealing events along with current trait-altering. A potential heir might turn out to be mad, a courtier you hoped to breed might be impotent, the wife will be full of surprises. That will need "invite for tea" diplomatic option to as a way to roughly assess the character...

Ah. Forgot to add. That beating event referred to by Diet of Worms, could this way have, say, 5% odds of "curing gayness" and about 50% chance of hiding it.

[Aubrielle]

Ah. Forgot to add. That beating event referred to by Diet of Worms, could this way have, say, 5% odds of "curing gayness" and about 50% chance of hiding it.

Now you're getting into whether or not "gayness" can be cured. Take it from a lesbian with repressive parents...there's as much cure for gayness as there is for being white or black. I do like the idea of possibly a beating or inquisition event giving a 50% modifier to hiding it. The character could very well hide it for the rest of their lives...but if they have lapses again (i.e. also having the 'lustful' trait), they could get found out again and life could be much, much worse next time...

[Selenimar]

Now you're getting into whether or not "gayness" can be cured.

No, I'm directly referring to the event script provided on this very page. It has beating at 10% chance of removing the trait and a prayer at 20%. Don't know how it's supposed to work.

[Aubrielle]

Ohhh....*lol* Forgive me.

[Frezzin]

Really, now? Some poll results/numbers to back this up? *I've* heard that more Americans (I can't speak for Canadians, Australians, Brits, or any Western non-English speaking group, but I assume that most of them are generally more tolerant than Americans) are indifferent to homosexuality than hung up about it. Those that *are* might have issues of their own to work out, more often than not. Of course, unless you're getting your figures from Fox News...then you can expect all kinds of wild results...

Let's face it. In terms of accuracy, this *did* happen, and does happen. People are gay. Get over it. It happened in the Middle Ages, and there *were* ramifications...as someone mentioned above, the Church didn't like it, and from at least 1000 on, a man could get himself burned at the stake for it...punishments toward lesbians might have been less strenuous, but we don't have as many mentions of them. In Viking Age Scandinavia, gays weren't punished, per se, but gay men could be outcast and ridiculed. There's lots of role playing and character development possibilities.

*If* people aren't scared to think about it. And if they are, well...there's therapists.

/facepalm

The US does not constitute the western world. It also most definitely doesn't represent it. For the most part, the US is much more liberal than it's other Western counterparts. You can do your own research, honestly I don't care enough about your opinion nor have to time to devote to dregging it up. Needless to say, if you care enough to know you'll do the research.

I agree that homosexuality could add character and gameplay elements. Absolutely. But that's not really my point. I'm saying it was a smart business decision on the part of PI to exclude these kinds of events, at least the vanilla version, so as not to impact their customer base.

Now, a DLC or something could be added later on I'm sure to satisfy the players who would like to see it. In fact I think it would be an excellent compromise. No doubt if Johan/Fredrick and the rest haven't already thought of it, they might have now. Though I'll see no royalties

[Grandmasta]

I hear they're bundling extra homosexual events with the Lesbian Finder DLC.

[AllThat4Nothing]

I hear they're bundling extra homosexual events with the Lesbian Finder DLC.

lols soon to be followed by the "Fabulous! Leader Icon Pack" DLC

[Grandmasta]

/facepalm

The US does not constitute the western world. It also most definitely doesn't represent it. For the most part, the US is much more liberal than it's other Western counterparts. You can do your own research, honestly I don't care enough about your opinio nor have to time to devote to dregging it up. Needless to say, if you care enough to know you'll do the research.

Oh, oh, let me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:So...osexuality.svg

You are correct that the US is not representative of the Western world; the US is, by this measure, the least liberal country out of those we'd generally consider "Western."

[AllThat4Nothing]

Oh, oh, let me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:So...osexuality.svg

You are correct that the US is not representative of the Western world; the US is, by this measure, the least liberal country out of those we'd generally consider "Western."

that's not true. that's our fault for giving far-right wingnuts too much airtime and too much validity. in practice, we're not as non-liberal as you think.

[Aubrielle]

that's not true. that's our fault for giving far-right wingnuts too much airtime and too much validity. in practice, we're not as non-liberal as you think.

Really?

I don't have facts or figures for this one, but maybe you've seen it in your own experience. Why is it that when a new game mentions even allowing homosexual relationships (however tacitly), so many Americans get so offended by the notion? I mean, look at some of the responses on this forum (but also, I've heard about a lot of people getting offended by the idea of the remote possibility of such relationships in games like Mass Effect 3.). You might be right in that it's the media's fault, but...doesn't that make our society more oppressive?

[Grandmasta]

that's not true. that's our fault for giving far-right wingnuts too much airtime and too much validity. in practice, we're not as non-liberal as you think.

We most certainly are, if you're using the term "liberal" as shorthand for "accepting of homosexuality," which for some reason we started doing in the last few posts in this thread