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"Homosexual" should have more events surrounding other gay courtiers or nobles

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InnocentIII said:
But of course! Why judge someone for what they do when you can judge them for what they think?
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I agree completely. I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect to be able to walk down the street as a confirmed homosexual and not be hated by most of the people you pass. I also think that it's completely reasonable for people to hate and demonize other religions and cultures, leading to suicide and depression.

--

I mean, they're just thoughts, right? Doesn't mean they always lead to actions. Of course, it's alright to hope for a world where everyone views everyone else as an equal human being, but it's wrong to take any change to effect that.
 
jossief said:
I agree, but Paradox had to tread a kind of fine line here. Not everyone in the world has the best attitudes toward homosexuality. In a game where you're supposed to identify with your character, they may not want to force everyone into that role.
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Basically this.
 
It adds an interesting dimension, as the game is just as much about the characters as it is about the dynasty (if you're the world conquering type; there are better games out there). I don't care about offending people who may have bias against homosexuality, let them be offended; I doubt so much they will care if that character turns out to have a 21 Martial Skill.. they will do everything in their power to retain that character.
 
I really dislike how arbitrary the "homosexual" trait seems to pop up particularly if you are trying to role play something different. There should be more of a deliberated decision or path that needs to be followed instead of "poof" you are gay. Completely defeats any immersion for me when I am making decisions and I don't like being forced into that type of thing.

I wish there was some way to disable the whole trait so that it never fires to begin with.
 
IRQ5 said:
I really dislike how arbitrary the "homosexual" trait seems to pop up particularly if you are trying to role play something different. There should be more of a deliberated decision or path that needs to be followed instead of "poof" you are gay. Completely defeats any immersion for me when I am making decisions and I don't like being forced into that type of thing.

I wish there was some way to disable the whole trait so that it never fires to begin with.
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Yes, characters should start out homosexual and then through an advanced event-chain of strange life-decisions ending up with the Heterosexual trait, just like in real life! Not just some boring "It's something I have to live with because it's part of me as a person" nonsense! Ew!

Also there shouldn't be any bad events, because they mess up your plans, and everyone knows that's totally unrealistic.
 
Keanon said:
Wait, what? You think homosexuality is something that can and should be cured? And what makes you say it should be uncommon? The fact that we know of few only tells you that they learned how to hide or live with it suppressed inside of them. Even today, apparently staight people spring fourth after multiple kids, having tried their whole lives to just ignore their natural urges.
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He didn't say anything suggesting it SHOULD be cured. However, let's not mess with the idea of how likely the trait should or should not be as that is not the issue here; making the inclusion of such a an "event quest-line" contingent on a reduction of the the likelihood of the trait sounds like a desire not to have to encounter such a quest line and implies . . . un-nice things.

I am straight, but I'd still like to see this aspect of the game be something . . . more? As it is it doesn't seem to do anything really except the listed modifiers (and I have noted one time I was given the option of blackmailing another courtier in a foreign court who has the trait by my spymaster during a sow discontent mission event. Also, as I don't think it should have to be Paradox who does this, this seems like a good mod idea.

My one homosexual heir was assassinated, though his daughter later ruled, had sons, who now rule in my current game so I haven't experienced a ruler with the trait yet so there may be more events than I realize.

And please, please let's keep this from devolving into . . . what everyone expects it to? If you have issues with this issue in real life just drop it at the door, hmm?
 
IRQ5 said:
I really dislike how arbitrary the "homosexual" trait seems to pop up particularly if you are trying to role play something different. There should be more of a deliberated decision or path that needs to be followed instead of "poof" you are gay. Completely defeats any immersion for me when I am making decisions and I don't like being forced into that type of thing.

I wish there was some way to disable the whole trait so that it never fires to begin with.
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so wait you're saying homosexual people made themselves homosexual......?
 
forget about more homosexual events. This is a medieval game, there was only one legitimate punishment for being openly gay at the time - death. And it was only natural considering 1. all punishments were cruel 2. primary source of wealth of agricultural societies is more people which means reproduction.

If the game had 100 times more history content (events etc.) then I would support elaborating closet gay events but until then its just ridiculous.

The term homosexual itself sounds anachronic in the game as it is.

And yes, many people made themselves (or were made) gay, especially when they were destined at birth to live in monasteries for their whole lives.

But its a good idea for "Rainbow crusaders" mod or something, I would definitely play this :-D
 
I haven't had a gay ruler yet but I'd love to see something like the OP suggested. Maybe someone could mod that in? Also I'd like to know what happens when my spymaster finds homosexual nobles in someone elses court. No matter which option I click on when the message pops up, nothing happens. It doesn't even tell you who the noble is. I'd like to know who it is and maybe get some kind of bonus/penalty for blackmailing or keeping his secret.
 
LodovicoAriosto said:
And yes, many people made themselves gay, especially when they were destined at birth to live in monasteries for their whole lives.
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deciding to do gay things and actually be a homosexual is not the same thing. someone who is straight-up gay (no pun intended lol) is born gay. have you been living under a rock? everyone who claims "gay people choose to be gay" has been shot down and with good reason.

no I'm not gay.
 
Would love to see more events around it, doubt Paradox will do it. Modders to the rescue?

Kind of blows my mind some of the attitudes people have about homosexuxality, but then, at least this is a more civil place than others on the internet.

I was reading this historical fiction by Jack Whyte called Knights of the Black and White, which details the founding of the templars and the third crusade. Anyway, in it Richard I (Lionheart) and Philip II are described as having a homosexual affair, and Richard confesses publicly and repents to all Christendom about his homosexuality (of course, up until the 20th century homosexuality was seen as an act, not an identity). So I looked it up and though the information is sparse, it seems there must be some evidence for it, though I haven't checked sources or anything. Here's what Wikipedia says about Richard I's homosexuality:

Since the 1950s, Richard's sexuality has become an issue of controversy. Victorian and Edwardian historians had rarely addressed this question, but in 1948 historian John Harvey challenged what he perceived as "the conspiracy of silence" surrounding Richard's homosexuality.[102] This argument drew primarily on available chronicler accounts of Richard's behaviour, chronicler records of Richard's two public confessions and penitences, and Richard's childless marriage.[103] This material is complicated by accounts of Richard having had at least one illegitimate child (Philip of Cognac), and allegations that Richard had sexual relations with local women during his campaigns.[104]

Leading historians remain divided on the question of Richard's sexuality.[105] Harvey's argument has gained considerable support;[106] However, this view has been disputed by other historians, most notably John Gillingham.[107] Drawing on other chronicler accounts, he argues that Richard was probably heterosexual.[108]

Historian Jean Flori states that contemporary historians quite generally accept that Richard was homosexual.[106][109] Flori also analysed contemporaneous accounts; he refuted Gillingham's arguments and concluded that Richard's two public confessions and penitences (in 1191 and 1195) must have referred to the "sin of sodomy".[110] Flori cites contemporaneous accounts of Richard taking women by force[111] and concludes that Richard was probably bisexual.[112]

Flori and Gillingham agree that the contemporaneous accounts do not support the allegation that Richard had a homosexual relation with King Philip II of France, as suggested by some modern authors.[113]
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Lusen said:
Well, anyobody who actually think that should not be allowed to play the game at all.
I agree that it would be funny if your character sneaked away with another homosexual during a feast or something..:p
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I say we shold have an option in the diplomatic option menu where we can (for example), schoos to flirt with a character so it is not just done thru events. I usualy whant to "mate" with all the good looking female characters in my ralm but as it is now I cant even choos who to flirt with to show my interest.

This schold obviusly be able to do male to male or female to female, but wold then result in this character getting the homosexual trait(if not already aquired).

Wold be fun to have 2 different homosexual traits as whell, the original one and one super homosexual trait that makes having a chiled practicaly impossible. Mabe this trait culd be given if you sleep around with to many of the same sex, thus making you loos interest in the other gender compleatly.


I say make a mod of this or if paradox decides to add it in a patch.
 
The way homosexuality works now is fine. It's a cool addition to flavor and adds to the RP aspects in an appreciable way. If you want to add events that are triggered by the trait, it should be easy enough. Paradox already walks a fine line by touching on controversial topics, as you can see by the way this thread keeps derailing.

This is why we can't have nice things. :\
 
The 'identity' factor is the key element here. A few people have brought it up but it keeps getting glossed over.

Some people seem to be under the impression that in the middle ages a gay man would be analogous to a gay man in modern times; however, the modern gay rights movement literally began with a call for homosexual people to recognize their innate sexuality and form an identity around that, to 'live as a gay man/woman.' The whole notion of living in the closet was, at one time, a very real and normal thing. It wasn't about gay men secretly pretending to be straight, it was about people with sexual preferences that were trying to live normal lives while confused by, or uncomfortable with their urges. They didn't identify as gay men or women, they identified as the father of their children, the husband of their wife, a family man. Their identity didn't include being gay. The idea of having a gay identity is a relatively recent phenomenon. Yes there have always been people who completely embraced their sexuality, but until recently the number of these people has been very low. If we assume that in the middle ages the percentage of the population that is gay is similar to what it is today - and we have no reason to think that it wasn't - then you could estimate that around 2-8% of the population had homosexual leanings.

How does that sort of thing manifest in the kind of society that views marriage and relationships and obligatory breeding in the way that society did in those days? For the vast majority of gay men it would likely manifest as a general disinterest in mating with females - not an inability to, or even a distaste - and feelings about men that they block because they know that it is inappropriate in their society. I would suspect very few would graduate to having any kind of sexual relationship with other men, and may desire to remain appropriate and faithful to the church more than they desired what many of them must have felt were deviant and sinful thoughts. Even today we have homosexual people who identify as the father of their children, the husband of their wife, as a family man. It seems unlikely that you wouldn't see the same thing happening in the middle ages - and even more unlikely that it wouldn't happen more often.

So maybe Paradox did handle it in a fairly good way; homosexuality results in less interest in sex with their wives, and not necessarily a proclivity for homosexual intimacy. Still, it would be nice if an event sometimes triggered that gave you the option of pursuing an affair with a gay courtier, or choosing the pious route and avoiding it. That would be quite interesting and still give people with, er, less tolerant views, an out.
 
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This thread is surprisingly interesting and non-flamey. So I was wondering does anybody have any real world examples of openly gay or widely considered to be gay (at the time) nobles and how they were dealt with? From what I understand sodomy was a crime and punishable by death, but that doesn’t mean it was really enforced, especially against nobles.

I imagine prosecuting a noble for sodomy would be difficult even if the church wanted to, who is going to testify against them? Their partners, who would either be facing the same penalty (and thus have no incentive to testify) or be given immunity (and thus have a good reason to lie). Or maybe the testimony of servants? Is the church really going to put to death a noble on the word of some servants? That seems like something the nobility wouldn't go for gay or not. Maybe if letters between the lovers existed or some other noble uninvolved was somehow a witness, but these would seem to be very rare circumstances. Anyways if anybody has some real world examples id love to hear them, and I would hope paradox would base future events on real world examples not speculation.
 
Re: Richard as a closet homosexual/bisexual, I had a series of events in game with my Duke of Savoie that saw him wrestle with his sexuality - starting with rumours that he was a sodomite (relationship hit with everyone in realm) and then following up with disagreements with courtiers on the matter. I also got several events that saw him trying to decide whether he was one or the other, leading to him gaining the 'stressed' trait. At no point, though, did he end up with a full blown 'homosexual' trait (though he did die quite young), so I'd say there is room for the simulation of closet homosexuals / bisexual characters.
 
Pallen said:
Paradox have been bold enough by adding this trait itself and making it a negative modifier which is enough.
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agreed
 
Harle said:
The 'identity' factor is the key element here. A few people have brought it up but it keeps getting glossed over.

Some people seem to be under the impression that in the middle ages a gay man would be analogous to a gay man in modern times; however, the modern gay rights movement literally began with a call for homosexual people to recognize their innate sexuality and form an identity around that, to 'live as a gay man/woman.' The whole notion of living in the closet was, at one time, a very real and normal thing. It wasn't about gay men secretly pretending to be straight, it was about people with sexual preferences that were trying to live normal lives while confused by, or uncomfortable with their urges. They didn't identify as gay men or women, they identified as the father of their children, the husband of their wife, a family man. Their identity didn't include being gay. The idea of having a gay identity is a relatively recent phenomenon. Yes there have always been people who completely embraced their sexuality, but until recently the number of these people has been very low. If we assume that in the middle ages the percentage of the population that is gay is similar to what it is today - and we have no reason to think that it wasn't - then you could estimate that around 2-8% of the population had homosexual leanings.

How does that sort of thing manifest in the kind of society that views marriage and relationships and obligatory breeding in the way that society did in those days? For the vast majority of gay men it would likely manifest as a general disinterest in mating with females - not an inability to, or even a distaste - and feelings about men that they block because they know that it is inappropriate in their society. I would suspect very few would graduate to having any kind of sexual relationship with other men, and may desire to remain appropriate and faithful to the church more than they desired what many of them must have felt were deviant and sinful thoughts. Even today we have homosexual people who identify as the father of their children, the husband of their wife, as a family man. It seems unlikely that you wouldn't see the same thing happening in the middle ages - and even more unlikely that it wouldn't happen more often.

So maybe Paradox did handle it in a fairly good way; homosexuality results in less interest in sex with their wives, and not necessarily a proclivity for homosexual intimacy. Still, it would be nice if an event sometimes triggered that gave you the option of pursuing an affair with a gay courtier, or choosing the pious route and avoiding it. That would be quite interesting and still give people with, er, less tolerant views, an out.
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+1

Good post. I'd just add that we ought to bear in mind most historians of the era were religious figures. Considering what we know about human biology and sexuality today, it's doubtful that there didn't exist some sort of stable gay subculture during the Middle Ages. The Chruch really only paid much attention to prominent people in this regard, and even then it's hard to imagine all nobles were able to abstain entirely.

It'd be great if there were some more events surrounding homosexuality (aside from blackmailing gay barons). By all means, leave in a pious way out for insecure fifteen year old boys, but give those of us who are secure enough a way to roleplay our gay characters.
 
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