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Thread: Stop the stat hoarding and exploiting....HIDE THE STATS!

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    if you don't want to stat hoard and explot, then simply don't. I don't understand the OP's gripe: he's saying Paradox should make changes to the game to stop people from doing something that they can easily stop themselves from doing...? If someone enjoys "stat hoarding" then they will do it and enjoy it. If someone doesn't want to do it and doesn't enjoy it, then they'll play differently. No need for changes. And I agree with the folks who say they like seeing the numbers. Playing Paradox games, you come to expect them.
    I think the OP's idea goes beyond stat hoarding. The idea of masking the numbers would change the experience. I think it would be a fun challenge and slightly more realistic. Who are you going to appoint to a court position? Your realm's largest Duchy's son, or some random landless character? It would be a new dynamic, that isn't as simple as stat hoarding.

    I do agree that it should be an option, akin to a fog of war button, but for character stats.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pothkan View Post
    It's what makes Paradox games fun. Ledgers, statistics, tables, lists, diagrams, comparisons... data, data, data!

    Same thing was the reason, why old Bioware RPG games (with D2D system and lot of reading in conversations) were so great.

    However, "hide stats" could be optional - e.g. as different difficulty level.
    Yes of course an "option" is what was intended......Then those who like to stat hoard can play what they like and those that like "mystery" can play what they like.

  3. #23
    On the one hand, it does sound like fun.

    On the other hand, the game is an abstraction. In real life you would be able to see that the guy you were considering to be your marshal started passing out swords to your cooking staff and asked the seargent at arms to prepare him a decent meal. In the game, you'll have no way to know how he's doing for the most part.

  4. #24
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    Yes i would support a button that lets us replace numbers with "Incompetent" "Poor" "Decent" "Competent" "Masterful"

    As "Masterful" is anything 13+ you would always be able to see who's fairly good, but it would be something of a stab in the dark to get the true geniuses.

  5. #25
    I do like the idea but as mentioned before, I don't think it's really feasible unless implemented in a new game from scratch.

  6. #26
    Thank you! I've been wanting to start this thread for a while now. Honestly, the only things that matter here are realism and believability. Information can be bad if it is realistically unavailable to your character. Those arguing otherwise may as well permanently lift the fog of war and automatically know of every plot attempted in the game. Simply put, anything which gives the player immersion and makes him behave like a true medieval lord is good while anything which continues to make him feel/behave like a guy playing a game is unacceptable. Knowing everything about a character thousands of miles away displayed as a simplistic number system clearly falls into the latter category.

    What is realstic is reputation. People have reputations to give others an idea of what they're good and bad at, and secrets, such as certain genetic traits. There is no question that, in the name of believability, stats need to be replaced with sentences covering a small range of numbers. If you're not particularly bright, what would you expect people to say: "He's a bit slow," or "he's clearly got an intelligence level of 3?"

    Traits ought also to be more hidden, considered on a one-by-one basis. There's no way to hide your lisp from those around you, so it should be displayed for the world to see - it's a part of your reputation. You're known as a great theologian, so this trait would naturally be made visible, but quite a lot of personal traits, particularly things like deadly sins or homosexuality which could be practiced in secret, should only become available for all to see if caught doing something and unable to stop the rumours.

    There is only one number I can think off-hand which should always be available to the player: His own treasury, and perhaps even that should be approximated unless he has the "greedy" trait and is always counting it.
    1 Clerk............................................. ........................1 Angestellte
    Nationality/Culture: Yankee /
    North German...............Nationalität/Kultur: Yankee-Amerikanisch / Norddeutsch
    Religion: Orthodox.......................................... ..........Religion: Orthodox
    Ideology: Reactionary....................................... ........Ideologie: Reaktionär
    Issues: Protectionism (Mercantilism), Pluralism.............Probleme: Protektionismus (Merkantilismus), Pluralismus
    Current Work: Student (Germanistik / Linguistics)......Arbeit: Student (Germanistik / Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft)
    Cash Reserves: Low, but steady..................................Geldreserv en: Niedrig
    Revolt Risk: 7.5%.............................................. ........Revoltenrisiko: 7,5%
    Militancy: 3.00 (-.01).............................................. ....Militanz:
    3,00 (-,01)
    Consciousness: 7.00 (+.02).........................................Bew ußtsein: 7,00 (+,02)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus View Post
    Thank you! I've been wanting to start this thread for a while now. Honestly, the only things that matter here are realism and believability. Information can be bad if it is realistically unavailable to your character. Those arguing otherwise may as well permanently lift the fog of war and automatically know of every plot attempted in the game
    I am quite certain you do not speak for people who have no problem with being able to see the numbers. I think you need to come off your high horse.
    I once lost a pair of shoes.

  8. #28
    I dislike this idea. Perhaps in part because I am used to seeing the numbers, in CK1, EU2 & 3, in HOI 2 & 3 and in Vic 1 & 2. You take the numbers out of this game and it would feel too strange.

    Not to mention I like the numbers are an abstraction idea a few posts back.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus View Post
    Thank you! I've been wanting to start this thread for a while now. Honestly, the only things that matter here are realism and believability. Information can be bad if it is realistically unavailable to your character. Those arguing otherwise may as well permanently lift the fog of war and automatically know of every plot attempted in the game. Simply put, anything which gives the player immersion and makes him behave like a true medieval lord is good while anything which continues to make him feel/behave like a guy playing a game is unacceptable. Knowing everything about a character thousands of miles away displayed as a simplistic number system clearly falls into the latter category.

    What is realstic is reputation. People have reputations to give others an idea of what they're good and bad at, and secrets, such as certain genetic traits. There is no question that, in the name of believability, stats need to be replaced with sentences covering a small range of numbers. If you're not particularly bright, what would you expect people to say: "He's a bit slow," or "he's clearly got an intelligence level of 3?"

    Traits ought also to be more hidden, considered on a one-by-one basis. There's no way to hide your lisp from those around you, so it should be displayed for the world to see - it's a part of your reputation. You're known as a great theologian, so this trait would naturally be made visible, but quite a lot of personal traits, particularly things like deadly sins or homosexuality which could be practiced in secret, should only become available for all to see if caught doing something and unable to stop the rumours.

    There is only one number I can think off-hand which should always be available to the player: His own treasury, and perhaps even that should be approximated unless he has the "greedy" trait and is always counting it.
    This

    I would say how to implement it as well.

    Prestige and Piety. Depending as to how positive or negative your final number should determin how far away rulers know of you. Also by title for example if you are an independant ruler at King level all rulers should know you. if you are a duke it is so far away. This would not be hard to implement. It is a fog of war as said. I have also noticed it would improve immersion for example I have seen grade a exceptional characters with terrible traits and excellent traits with poor stats so it would be fun to see. It would also explain why there are so many screw up dynasties around. It wont give a number either just a level of fame for piety or impiety or prestigious or base. Although you do see it in the end of game.

    I remember medieval total war had the traits but you didnt know how much was base and how much the traits affected stats origionally.
    This is my AAR thread for Alsace.

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...d.php?t=460411

    I intend to hold Central Europe before crusading. Then maybe a World Conquest.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Hilficker View Post
    I dislike this idea. Perhaps in part because I am used to seeing the numbers, in CK1, EU2 & 3, in HOI 2 & 3 and in Vic 1 & 2. You take the numbers out of this game and it would feel too strange.

    Not to mention I like the numbers are an abstraction idea a few posts back.
    seconded
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  11. #31
    Exploit
    In this thread: People using this word who don't have the faintest clue of it's meaning, and/or are trolling.

    Striving for better characters is entirely part of the game. Its at the core of the RPG elements. It's not an unintended use of the mechanics, IT IS the mechanic.

    Anyhow, while we're on the topic, I make the following counter-proposal: Make Health and Fertility visible.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Legend View Post

    I remember medieval total war had the traits but you didnt know how much was base and how much the traits affected stats origionally.
    TW series are different games entirely based on an entirely different system. There is no comparison.

    Here's an easy solution for people whining that seeing the numbers ruins the "immersion":

    simply ignore them.

    paradox designed the game based in certain priniciples the majority of their fanbase have found popular for years, and that includes seeing numbers. not everyone is going to agree of course, but, unfortunately for them, they are outnumbered.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alerias View Post
    In this thread: People using this word who don't have the faintest clue of it's meaning, and/or are trolling.

    Striving for better characters is entirely part of the game. Its at the core of the RPG elements. It's not an unintended use of the mechanics, IT IS the mechanic.

    Anyhow, while we're on the topic, I make the following counter-proposal: Make Health and Fertility visible.
    and THIS! good post
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  14. #34
    Here are my suggestions to make a more realistic game:
    ~Completely hide how much money is in the treasury. The steward must spend time counting money in order to determine the exact total and won't tell his liege if he dislikes his liege.
    ~Hide how many soldiers are in an army. You must send out scouts to determine the size of the army and scouts have a chance of dying. It should take years to train a scout to properly evade enemies and provide accurate information.
    ~Don't show any territory except what you directly control. Every so often travelers will tell you exploits of faraway lands. This information is years out of date.
    ~There should be a delay of weeks or months when ordering armies to simulate delays in communication. Generals have a chance of disregarding your orders if they dislike you or have low martial scores.
    ~Don't show what your courtiers and advisers think of you. What, do you have some sort of Medieval mind reading device? You have to ask them and sometimes they lie.
    ~In fact, hide all numbers. I don't want to see any numbers (except for the numbers after a king or popes name). This includes the date.
    ~Hide dynasty information. The player should either keep track of it or pay people to keep track of it.
    ~No saving and reloading.
    ~Every time you start a new game, you have a 30% chance of dying of the plague and have to restart.

    With these simple suggestions, I think we'll have a much more realistic game.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus View Post
    Thank you! I've been wanting to start this thread for a while now. Honestly, the only things that matter here are realism and believability. Information can be bad if it is realistically unavailable to your character. Those arguing otherwise may as well permanently lift the fog of war and automatically know of every plot attempted in the game. Simply put, anything which gives the player immersion and makes him behave like a true medieval lord is good while anything which continues to make him feel/behave like a guy playing a game is unacceptable. Knowing everything about a character thousands of miles away displayed as a simplistic number system clearly falls into the latter category.

    What is realstic is reputation. People have reputations to give others an idea of what they're good and bad at, and secrets, such as certain genetic traits. There is no question that, in the name of believability, stats need to be replaced with sentences covering a small range of numbers. If you're not particularly bright, what would you expect people to say: "He's a bit slow," or "he's clearly got an intelligence level of 3?"

    Traits ought also to be more hidden, considered on a one-by-one basis. There's no way to hide your lisp from those around you, so it should be displayed for the world to see - it's a part of your reputation. You're known as a great theologian, so this trait would naturally be made visible, but quite a lot of personal traits, particularly things like deadly sins or homosexuality which could be practiced in secret, should only become available for all to see if caught doing something and unable to stop the rumours.

    There is only one number I can think off-hand which should always be available to the player: His own treasury, and perhaps even that should be approximated unless he has the "greedy" trait and is always counting it.
    THIS has to be a joke...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    if you don't want to stat hoard and explot, then simply don't. I don't understand the OP's gripe: he's saying Paradox should make changes to the game to stop people from doing something that they can easily stop themselves from doing...? If someone enjoys "stat hoarding" then they will do it and enjoy it. If someone doesn't want to do it and doesn't enjoy it, then they'll play differently. No need for changes. And I agree with the folks who say they like seeing the numbers. Playing Paradox games, you come to expect them.
    +1!
    I like the stats. That is one of the things that really attracted me to Paradox Games those many years ago. To the OP. I have played CK in the past by selecting those with low stats. etc. just to see the outcomes. So, you don't always have to select the star performer.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyGrim View Post
    Here are my suggestions to make a more realistic game:
    ~Completely hide how much money is in the treasury. The steward must spend time counting money in order to determine the exact total and won't tell his liege if he dislikes his liege.
    ~Hide how many soldiers are in an army. You must send out scouts to determine the size of the army and scouts have a chance of dying. It should take years to train a scout to properly evade enemies and provide accurate information.
    ~Don't show any territory except what you directly control. Every so often travelers will tell you exploits of faraway lands. This information is years out of date.
    ~There should be a delay of weeks or months when ordering armies to simulate delays in communication. Generals have a chance of disregarding your orders if they dislike you or have low martial scores.
    ~Don't show what your courtiers and advisers think of you. What, do you have some sort of Medieval mind reading device? You have to ask them and sometimes they lie.
    ~In fact, hide all numbers. I don't want to see any numbers (except for the numbers after a king or popes name). This includes the date.
    ~Hide dynasty information. The player should either keep track of it or pay people to keep track of it.
    ~No saving and reloading.
    ~Every time you start a new game, you have a 30% chance of dying of the plague and have to restart.

    With these simple suggestions, I think we'll have a much more realistic game.
    ~ Absolutely ridiculous. It's a game. Show me the money.
    ~ Nice idea but too nitpicky and the training thing too tedious. Again, this is a game, not a simulation.
    ~ Again... Would make for crap gameplay.
    ~ I like this idea personally but game mechanic takes precedence
    ~ Too extreme. We should have an idea what they think. Again, game, not simulation.
    ~ Simply no. No.
    ~ Silly.
    ~ That's a VERY ANCIENT debate in gaming going back probably before you were born. Anyway, if you don't want to be a save/reload abuser, then simply don't do it. No one is forcing you.
    ~ That would just get frustrating.

    On the whole, I don't think you realize how frustrating your suggestions would make the game. Frustration = bad publicity = lower sales = Paradox not happy.
    I once lost a pair of shoes.

  18. #38
    These suggestions aren't bad at all, but it would lead to a completely different game. Both the actual game and the suggested hidden information game are appealing to me.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    On the whole, I don't think you realize how frustrating your suggestions would make the game. Frustration = bad publicity = lower sales = Paradox not happy.
    Sorry, apparently that was sarcasm failure on my part. Notice how I started with almost reasonable things and then ramped up to ridiculous stuff?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    ~ Absolutely ridiculous. It's a game. Show me the money.
    ~ Nice idea but too nitpicky and the training thing too tedious. Again, this is a game, not a simulation.
    ~ Again... Would make for crap gameplay.
    ~ I like this idea personally but game mechanic takes precedence
    ~ Too extreme. We should have an idea what they think. Again, game, not simulation.
    ~ Simply no. No.
    ~ Silly.
    ~ That's a VERY ANCIENT debate in gaming going back probably before you were born. Anyway, if you don't want to be a save/reload abuser, then simply don't do it. No one is forcing you.
    ~ That would just get frustrating.

    On the whole, I don't think you realize how frustrating your suggestions would make the game. Frustration = bad publicity = lower sales = Paradox not happy.
    He was being sarcastic.
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