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Thread: Crusade against a Caliphate and Warfare

  1. #1
    War Plan Orange Member aphrochine's Avatar
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    Crusade against a Caliphate and Warfare

    Crusade

    So the pope picks Alexandria for a Crusade target. This sweet piece of territory is owned by the Shia Caliphate. I spent every dime and piety I had over 3 waves of recruited troops, mercenaries and holy orders. I could not build up enough warscore to win the crusade. I think every man in my kingdom now has Crusader and that's done wonders for opinions & inner relations of my twin kingdom of Scotland and Ireland, however the Alexandria crusade has now lasted over 75 years and aside from myself and England, not other nation has tried...and we both failed.

    Tactically, taking a single province and winning the first or second battle of each of my 'waves' was easy. Heavy Knights provided by the holy orders just wreck face. The issue came after that as the Caliphate would send wave after wave of large thick stacks. I eventually resolved to reinforcement squashing and send my holy orders out into the egyptian desert defeating the reinforcements as they spawned in piecemeal. This only worked for a while as the large 15k-20k stacks of troops just kept coming. The highest my warscore reached was about 66%.

    Warfare

    I'd also like to see a mechanic where a conquering nation can garrison/levy up a conquested holding using standing troops. Invading other cultural areas becomes a game of whack a mole. With the inability to garrison up conquested territories, the little armies that are spawned are capable of retaking the penalized holdings you've conquered. I have the troops to defeat this little armies, but I spend months chasing them around the countryside so they dont retake the holdings I conquered. I'd much rather just take those troops that I'm using to run all over the map and stick them into a castle so that holding cannot be retake with little reinforcement armies of a couple hundred men.
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  2. #2
    I've encountered similar problems playing as Kingdom of Jerusalem (starting in 1099), the Holy Orders are fantastic but even if you wipe out the entire population of the near east in battle you can bet your life another few stacks of 10k troops will be along soon. The refresh rates for their troops seem way too fast imo.
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  3. #3
    Your only chance for success in a crusade is a civil war in Shia. otherwise you will be raped. If Shia is stable and you do not have several allies (preferable humans in multiplayer) - do not even dare to embark on holy journey.

  4. #4
    In my current game, the Shia Caliphate has had lots of local enemies. Johnny Komnenos has taken Syria from them, and they often seemed to have civil war. The pope called for a Crusade against Al Alamayn and I waited until the Caliph's army was weak (check the ledger). I went over with levies and mercs and sieged Al alamayn, getting about 30% warscore. Then the Caliph offered me peace, giving me all of the Duchy of Alexandria.

    Other crusades have been for the Kingdom of Jerusalem area. France got a foothold there, and now the HRE has holdings as well. Byzantium still controls Syria, and I've conquered Egypt. The Shia Caliphate is still dangerous, but very manageable now.

    So essentially yes, you do need help. Allies would be hard to get, but you can sometimes find a time to strike when the Caliph is weakened or distracted.

  5. #5
    that is a way to go. remember to dow them again once you can, because once he collects it all together - he will come to you in 20-30 stacks and will take holy land back.

  6. #6
    War Plan Orange Member aphrochine's Avatar
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    I think the problem stems from not enough warscore from defeating huge stacks. How many 'epic' battles do you have to win before they call it quits.

    ...and this:

    getting about 30% warscore. Then the Caliph offered me peace, giving me all of the Duchy of Alexandria.
    Huh?!? I've never had anyone offer me peace with anything less than 50% warscore no matter how many wars they were fighting.
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  7. #7
    Peace offers are not about warscore. You need 100% for unconditional surrender. Other then that - AI will evaluate their chances on winning, so if chances are dim and they have other pressing issues - they are eager to propose peace even at low warscore,
    On the other hand if you are just opportunistic and they have army somewhere - they may be expecting to capture your king and insta-win this way.

  8. #8
    Lt. General Tallfellow's Avatar
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    I've won the Crusades several times by capturing the Sultan... Normally takes awhile before he pops he's head out with an army, but it'll happen at some point
    MEIOU cookie From Gigau.

  9. #9
    I think the game want to represent crusades as a teamwork. The first successes I had were the result of coordinated efforts from major european kingdoms.
    Waiting for death, gravelkind, I landed my heir with all Brittany. Through intermediation, he managed to bring all my vassals with him in a crusade (so the equivalent of all Ireland, Wales and Scotland).

    As as that time, I had alliances with both the King of England and the Duke of Aquitaine (who owns more than half of France in my game), I called them for arms after joining the crusades myself.

    Later, Spanish big guy joined in. Etc


    I dont think crusades are to be a solo effort. There are meant to call for a choice between expanding in European countries or uniting European countries in a large effort to take the land.

  10. #10
    Absolutely. Shia is technologically advanced and politically more stable at that time period. the only way to go is using opportunistic moments when everyone turns against khaliph. Divide and Conquire!

  11. #11
    I suppose this is proven by my experience as King of Ireland, who secured ownership of Jerusalem in 1116 with what sounds from the preceding posts like slender resources: the Hospitallers plus a few hundred Irish to start (all that could fit on the ships, and a financial stretch), reinforced by the fully levy and the Swiss company hired in a second wave. The Shia Caliphate was in civil war, the Grand Vizier leading the rebels, who were losing badly but obviously weakened the caliphate. So the first wave went well, including a number of battles and assaults as the cash drain was severe, but leaving 2600 men after Jerusalem fell while a large force of 6000 was spotted by the fleet in Egypt, finishing suppression of the Vizier's home province and heading east. With Papal funding, an inheritance, ransoms, and loot, in that order of significance, Ireland managed to fund the Swiss Company and with further levies these managed to reach Acre and arrive in Jerusalem while the Crusader Army was under fierce assault, weathering the pressure of 2:1 odds. The numerical balance was greatly reduced, and the power and morale of the Knights and the other professionals turned the tide and won a great victory that was ruthlessly exploited in pursuit. This left the Shia Caliph with 2000 or so reported total forces, but he would not concede a peace. Therefore the army split in two, half sent to liberate the Grand Vizier's province so he could be strengthened against the Caliph, the other half patrolled the regions near Jerusalem, wiping out enemy units until a force of about their own numbers coalesced and the army retired to Jerusalem. The Grand Vizier's provinces having been freed of occupation, the Caliph made peace on behalf of his vassal Emir of Jerusalem.

    I took it, but can I hold it once the Caliph gets on his feet? Without taxes from the area the Irish economy can't sustain a powerful defense. Do I wait for others to show up in the area? Set up a marriage transferring control of the Duchy to a more powerful monarch? Work on strengthening alliances?

  12. #12
    If I were you I'd gift Jerusalem and the provinces in the Holy Land to either the pope or one of the knightly orders.

    It's just not feasible, in this game or in historical reality, for a small, distant country like Ireland to maintain an outpost like that. Even historically, the Crusader states were established as their own nation and survived only with significant and continued support from virtually all of Europe and the entire financial and military resources of the Templars and Hospitaliers.

  13. #13
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrochine View Post
    I think the problem stems from not enough warscore from defeating huge stacks. How many 'epic' battles do you have to win before they call it quits.

    ...and this:



    Huh?!? I've never had anyone offer me peace with anything less than 50% warscore no matter how many wars they were fighting.
    I once won a crusade as Wales with a warscore of 30% since I was the only Crusader nation and they were busy with a jihad against Byzantium (their armies were being massacred).
    That said, it's impossible to hold on to it (I could only muster 2k men, plus 7k templars), so I just donated all of it to the pope.

  14. #14
    Second Lieutenant
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    There's a line "PERCENT_OF_GARRISON_DETACHED = " in define.lua
    It's the percent of the winner army spent on garrison the newly conquered holding.

  15. #15
    Major Rhion's Avatar
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    If you have a talented chancellor, you can use his "Sow Dissent" ability to break up the Shia Caliphate. The Caliphate is quite unstable to begin with, and you chancellor can provide the necessary push, to put them over the edge.

    An excellent target for this is Egypt, which is an important power base for the Shia Caliphate. If you can get the Sultan of Egypte to rebel against the Caliphate, the resulting civil war is an excellent opportunity for a land grab.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhion View Post
    If you have a talented chancellor, you can use his "Sow Dissent" ability to break up the Shia Caliphate. The Caliphate is quite unstable to begin with, and you chancellor can provide the necessary push, to put them over the edge.

    An excellent target for this is Egypt, which is an important power base for the Shia Caliphate. If you can get the Sultan of Egypte to rebel against the Caliphate, the resulting civil war is an excellent opportunity for a land grab.
    That is sort of what seems to be happening. What I did was, out of curiosity, give the Hospitalers (while still employed) a holding in Jerusalem. I noticed a little while later they had on their own taken over Hebron province on an independent basis. I used the troops to crush rebels afflicting the enemies of the Caliph, and then crushed a rebellion against the Caliph for the 25 relations bonus (couldn't hurt), and meanwhile there was a confusing web of assassinations, plots to change aspects of government, and independence wars among the Muslims, plus a Jihad declared against Byzantine-owned Beirut to the north that achieved little. No attacks on me even after expiration of the truce. I also sent the Hospitalers elsewhere with my army to fight Muslims in Sicily and Italy and most recently in Spain to defend the faith, winding up owning Messina and Calabria as a nice place to make land grants. The marriage alliance with the HRE may be working as a deterrent, and the King after a long reign had great piety and prestige. Come 1130, however, the King died and the first "martial" son took over, the second "diplomat/steward" son decided to revolt, and was joined by his average well-rounded younger brother. They were also joined by their uncle, once I let him out of jail so he could do so.

    My thought once they are crushed is to exile some of these folks to Italy and the Levant, maybe indeed even transfer them as vassals to the Pope (or does that risk someone using them to press claims?).

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