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Thread: CK2 Or Sengoku?

  1. #21
    Sengoku if you like wars and having a goal to accomplish.

    CK2 if you like politics and people.

  2. #22
    How many different (playable) factions are there in Sengoku? I really like CK2 as a single player game (I played 24 hours straight when I got it!), but I'm wondering if Sengoku might be better suited for my friends and I to play some multiplayer that's a little more focused and less sandbox-y (and as a free-for-all, no worrying about balancing the teams as we have to do with HoI3...)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 208 View Post
    How many different (playable) factions are there in Sengoku?
    There are over 20 different playable positions at the start of the standard game, 208, and that number goes up if you decide to play any of the smaller demesne samurai that can win independence from their historical lieges and become Daimyo themselves. From strictly a balanced perspective, however, I would say there are at least 4 major contenders for the Shogunate: The Ouchi, Yamana, Uesugi & Hosokawa, with others like the Date & Takeda being contenders if nurtured and given a chance to expand without too much interference.

    (This is dependent upon start date and scenario or mod played, of course.)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatnoir17 View Post
    I meant not national history, but the large reception of European medieval history in both continents which makes people very familiar with Europe and Middle East.
    Not to mention the deep relationship between the old and new worlds.

    In other words, I am wondering why the Sengoku period fascinates many players and developers (both digital and analog games) despite of relatively less information (How many pages does the school book of the world history tell about that era?). Just an exoticism or a civil war situation is not enough reason to me.
    Japanese culture is IMO unique in the world. I got interested when one of my Uncles did his Master's Thesis on the wars of the 1500's, the Tokugawa rise to the Shogunate and how it impacted Japan's ultimate relationship with the rest of the world.

    The nature of the Samurai class, their code of honor and their almost mythical qualities as warriors is of great interest. The diplomatic intriques of the period are of great interest too for IMO the ability of the Japanese nobility to play the game of diplomacy makes guys like Machiavelli seem rank amateurs at best.

    There is much the west could learn from the Japanese. Too bad the learning has to date only been in one direction.

  5. #25
    CK2 does require a huge investment in time, because the game is so heavy in family characters and politics (like mentioned, so many of your family does seem to want you dead) you really can't afford to neglect these complex layered systems, especially for new comers (unfortunately i am one of those people that just don't have the time available too play this game), yet Sengoku i did and enjoy to a certain extent, although a little lacking in underlying mechanics compared too EU3 series, yet CK2 swings to far the other side.

    I wished there was a Auto-option to have CK2 take care of my characters to a certain extent, like how the AI takes care of there own characters, that would help a lot.... the characters system for me is so demanding in complexity and likewise TIME...... also again with the same system is the understanding of titles, and there underlying meaning.... and interconnection with characters and politics.

    CK2 is a heavy game, and it doesn't have any option to give the player too choose how much control he/she wants, and no ability to hand over some of that control to autonomous AI (ministers), which came as quite a surprise, as many players would like to play CK2, but don't have the time, or perhaps just don't understand certain aspects of the games complex systems (even after reading the manual several times), like titles and there underlying connection to the empire the player is playing, also the politics system can also be quite demanding as if one is in control of it than one has to understand what there doing, understanding the character and Title system in CK2 is a must, if you don't then you can't play it basically which is a shame, a friend of mine didn't understand the title system, and i was trying to teach him, but before i knew it, i felt like someone trying to teach a person the rules in baseball...... i too became confused!

    I wished CK2 had what HOI 3 had for example, the ability to hand over some control to the AI if the player wished, but that unfortunately is lacking in CK2, if you or your friends have the time and willingness to LEARN the complex systems that are in this game, then CK2 is very rewarding, else the more watered down Sengoku would definitely be more appealing.

    It ultimately comes down to time, CK2 needs a lot of time from you because you have to deal with your families characters and there associated court.... families grow, and with it so does the need for you the PLAYER to keep on top of it...... for me i did not enjoy this aspect of this game.... the player seems tasked with things in my opinion that should/could be dealt with by ministers (people that could help me deal with this).... AI assistance, the character system can become very hard to keep track off if you let it, and also can become very confusing when it reaches a certain level of inter-laying.
    Last edited by Registered55; 20-05-2012 at 13:08.

  6. #26
    Lt. General Hister's Avatar
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    Luckily with the chatnoir's mod for Sengoku the game itself appears less watered down but the mod is not finished yet - perfectly playable in it's current state though.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Registered55 View Post
    It ultimately comes down to time, CK2 needs a lot of time from you...the character system can become very hard to keep track off if you let it, and also can become very confusing when it reaches a certain level of inter-laying.
    I think you hit the nail on the head, Red55. CK2 is a very "heavy" game. It requires a lot of attention to detail to grasp, and you really have to get into medieval laws of succession to fully enjoy & appreciate it.

    Sengoku, on the other hand, is very direct. It is quite "lite" by comparison. The two compliment one another very well. I like trading off playing both. Each has its strengths.

  8. #28
    To me it's currently Sengoku all the way. I find solace in nurturing a small kokujin family all the way to national dominance. To me the setting makes the game and I can forgive it most flaws because this period in history holds incredibly strong appeal for me.

    The only thing I would change immediately would be lack of movemement penalty for cancelled manouvers. This is ludicrous and is the root cause of all those cat-and-mouse games with AI armies.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
    The only thing I would change immediately would be lack of movemement penalty for cancelled manouvers.
    The best way to counter this, BT, is to drop off a spare retinue of 250 in adjacent provinces so they can block or intercept any movement. (Ronin work great for this.) The retinue will tie the opposing force down in combat long enough for your main army to close and engage.

    I agree, it is troublesome at times, but at least the AI is coded intelligently enough to avoid combat when it's outmatched. Overall, Sengoku's is one of the better AI's around, imo.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Def Zep View Post
    The best way to counter this, BT, is to drop off a spare retinue of 250 in adjacent provinces so they can block or intercept any movement. (Ronin work great for this.) The retinue will tie the opposing force down in combat long enough for your main army to close and engage.

    I agree, it is troublesome at times, but at least the AI is coded intelligently enough to avoid combat when it's outmatched. Overall, Sengoku's is one of the better AI's around, imo.
    Thanks for the tip!

    Also, I agree, AI is generally pretty good and capable of raising a wry smile in appreciation. I'm playing as Mori now (with MIH mod) and just polishing off the Ouchi in Kyushu. Tannowa and Kagawa are both pretty big in Kyushu and Shikoku and as soon as I took the opportunity and DOWd on the Ouchi both clans practically fell over themselves to push their hostages into my hands; offers from both clans rang in literally the same second as I pressed "Execute" on the DOW. I like to visualise their sheer panic the moment they assessed the situation and realised what's brewing :-) This game sooo feeds my vanity...

  11. #31
    Heh, BT, I can just imagine that! Sounds like a great game and a great mod

    Currently, I'm trying to get a grip on the Takeda. (1.04, unmodded stock game, 1467 Onin War start.) So far, I'm 0 for 4 with them. Usually, I can fight in the northern Kanto Plain area and win against the Kyogoku, but fall to either a counterattack by the Imizu-Hatakeyama, or the inevitable offensive from the Hosokawa when they come east. Twice I have been able to settle peace before being eliminated, but only after I've lost any holdings I've taken in the region. This puts the Takeda behind the power curve and in the bottom quartile of size; by the 1520's a larger Daimyo will decwar and storm Kai, turning the clan into Ronin. Not quite sure what to do different...in CK2, I can rely on the need for valid Casus Belli's (or claim fabrication) to give me the time needed to recover my levies and improve holdings, etc. "Turtle-ing" just doesn't work in Japan.

    Humbling, to be sure!

    Anyways, glad you're enjoying the game. I might have to try the Shimazu region next. Or maybe MIH, too.
    Last edited by Def Zep; 30-05-2012 at 17:04. Reason: clarification

  12. #32
    Thanks DZ, the game has been, indeed, exquisite :-)

    I recommend MIH, especially because I would love to play as Takeda or Imagawa but vanilla makes starting out with those clans pretty much a waste of time. Playing with MIH I now plan to make Takeda my next campaign! What a change a mod can make ;-)

    My Mori campaign in MIH has been superb and I managed to expand from the single kori of Aki to owning all the land between eastern reaches of Chugoku and the south of Kyushu (which still belong to Shimazu, alas they have my hostage). Don't know about you, but I get a serious kick out of seeing the name of my clan plastered across map in the biggest letters possible (preferably visible from space) and on that front I have been doing pretty well.

    Not sure if I should attribute it to MIH or whether this is a standard thing; in the Mori campaign I found that pace has been slightly frenetic from the off, as in I haven't really managed to settle and chill out for a minute. It has been a campaign of wholly opportunistic expansion in traditional Sengoku style (i.e. kick'em while they're down). Somehow, the political situation has never left me enough time to settle with a cuppa, wars have broken out so incredibly conveniently that I squeezed all that expansion into 20-or-so-years. So it's still 15th c. and I own 18% of Japan. Frighteningly, Echigo-Uesugi own 36% and have just romped through a 2-front war with huge Nanbu and even bigger Toki clans so I hold no hope for a happy ending on this one.

    All in all I like the military focus of Sengoku, keeps me focused and thoroughly entertained and I don't think I can now trade it in for a more inward-facing and leisurly nature of CK2. I also love Sengoku Jidai (as well as pretty much any other period in Japanese history) so Sengoku will always be my first cup of tea.

  13. #33
    I will have to try MIH, BT. Thanks for bringing that mod to my attention.

    The Mori are a very interesting clan. Sounds like you're doing a good job with them, and having a great time. It is indeed fun to paint your name in lights across the screen and billboard it to the International Space Station!

    I too do not usually aim to subjugate all of Japan; the larger clans like the Uesugi are commonly too strong at the start to overtake. Instead, I am satisfied with surviving as an independent clan, unsubjugated, and part of the "winning side". (Either allied to the Shogun, or successfully suppporting the Emperor.) It's provides a good incentive to play a minor clan, or start as a vassal and see if you can set up your own family desmesne. Hopefully that is how your campaign will turn out. Much fun!

    The MIH mod is what I will have to try next, soon as I'm done with my current CK2 campaign. So far, I am 1 for 7 with the Takeda in vanilla Sengoku (using the "survival" criteria defined above). What I've observed is, the Takeda's fate is sealed within the first year of the game. There are two opposing factions at the 1467 start: The Ashikaga (Emperor, backed by the Hosokawa) vs. the Yamana (and their allied minor clans). One of these sides will get the better Martial-stat leaders through the set-up RNG. This will become apparent within the first year of warfare betwen them (as one side will win most battles and take the other's kori). So what one can do is, set your court advisors to improve the Castle and the Village in Kai, and "fast-forward" at speed 5 'till completion, then pause the game and look at the overall map. If most kori are friendly, the Yamana are winning and the Takeda will most likely survive into the 1600's. If most kori are red, the Ashikaga/Hosokawa are stronger, and the Yamana-allied minors will probably be subjugated by 1570. Hopefully in MIH, by breaking the larger clans like the Yamana, Uesugi, Hosokawa, etc. into smaller pieces, this aspect will be lessened in its effect, and the minor clans will become more playable.

    Agree with you on CK2; it is a far more "liesurly" game. It is very good in its own right, and the upcoming Moslem expansion looks to make it even moreso. But Sengoku is a straight-out romp: mass your levies, march your armies, and go forward and fight! It's the perfect game for map-painting!
    Last edited by Def Zep; 31-05-2012 at 17:00. Reason: typo's

  14. #34
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    Honestly, I recommend both but in this order- Sengoku and then CK2. I'm a rather late bloomer for Paradox games but when I picked up Sengoku I got absorbed. I was rather irritated though because it was the first game that I couldn't play to my fullest potential because I simply didn't understand the entire game. On most console games controller configuration and goals literally slap you in the face without having to do so much as open the instruction booklet. It took me a few hours to completely understand Sengoku and eventually I had it down and completed the game. Then I tried EU3, and once again, I did not know how to play the game and I hated the tutorials because they simply took too long and required too much reading. It took SEVERAL games to get it down pat. Actually, it took more games than I can count (most of which lasted from 1399-1700ish). With EU3 down the other Paradox games were easier to get into but the learning curve is still steep for transitions into CKII, Vicky2 and especially HoI3. The reason I say all of this is because without Sengoku, I wouldn't have had any motivation to learn EU3 because without the base of knowing one Paradox game I would have been oblivious to a point as to where the game would be unplayable without the tutorials. I'm personally getting into CKII now, and its nice but it absolutely has a different level of complexity compared to Sengoku- therefore, I feel Sengoku would be better for a first timer- but CKII would eventually be better for someone who understands it.

  15. #35
    i think sengoku is the best MP game of the bunch, because of the common goal.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by baky View Post
    Honestly, I recommend both but in this order- Sengoku and then CK2...I wouldn't have had any motivation to learn EU3 because without the base of knowing one Paradox game I would have been oblivious to a point as to where the game would be unplayable without the tutorials.. I feel Sengoku would be better for a first timer- but CKII would eventually be better for someone who understands it.
    Excellent point, Balky.

    I started out with EU3, and it took me at least 3 tries to figure out what in the world was going on. I finally learned the game by setting myself a goal of reading 5-6 pages of the manual per day. After about a month, I'd read and played enough to understand the basics.

    It's easier with Sengoku. Sengoku is focused on armies & combat. Once you've learned how those work, you can move on to all the extras (like politics, religion & technology) EU3 and CK2 contain without getting swamped.

  17. #37
    i have found the wikipedia for paradox games very helpful, the way they design there structure format on there websites is far superior (intuitive) to the way paradox manuals are.

    in fact i would go even further and say that the paradox manuals do not take advantage of the PDF abilities regarding bookmarks, and using index systems allowing players too choose what part of the game manual they wish to study further.

    paradox manuals are designed to be read from start to finish, but unfortunately they don't take into account that some areas of there game require more in depth reading, and it can be hard to find the areas in there manuals that players are looking for, or at times there manual only touches upon certain aspects of there games in very little details.

    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Main_Page

    http://www.paradoxian.org/vicky2wiki/Main_Page

    http://crusaderkings-two.wikia.com/w..._Kings_II_Wiki


    now i wish the manuals that comes with these types of games emulates the same kind of structure that wiki websites have..... PDF does have these abilities where this type of structuring can easily be achieved.

    i think it would help players so much more, than just having the start to finish type of reading.

    i also think that it's wrong when paradox manuals don't get updated to reflect the changes that the patches make with there game, more so when patches make significant changes to the base game, yet the manual continues to reflect elements of the game that are just no longer true

    in fact the manuals for paradox games have recently become far smaller and less detailed than they use to be, and yet there games are just as complicated as they always have been, yet i believe the above paragraph plays a strong reasoning why this is so, after all if the manual contains less details in it, then less can be wrong when patches makes changes to the game.... but my opinion towards this is, it alienates newcomers to paradox games because it means the manuals are far to lacking in depth of detail.

    in fact i personally would never of learnt HOI3 if it were not for http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Main_Page

  18. #38
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    Personally I find Sengoku far too simple, and prefer CK II over it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaarle XII View Post
    Personally I find Sengoku far too simple, and prefer CK II over it.
    Well, have given CK2 a good run lately (much to my wife's displeasure ) some facts have now become apparent:

    1. Sengoku is a perfect introduction to Paradox games compared to CK2. If you're new to PI games then Sengoku will be far easier to grasp.
    2. Sengoku is all about the rhythm, the ebb and flow. All that the game really demands from you as a player is good timing in choosing your next target. One Nanbu campaign will illustrate this point very clearly - DOW, raise troops, conquer, grant provinces, regain honour, pick your next victim, DOW, raise troops etc. Developing your kori is a straight-up investment without any catches, really. Things get much more interesting and dynamic when playing a clan surrounded with neighbours, more things happen but basics remain the same - kill, gain honour, rest levies, raise levies, kill etc.
    3. Sengoku is harder. It really is. AI can be ruthless and wastes no time at all. Don't be ashamed to start on Easy.
    4. CK2 is a superb, superb game, one of the very best I have ever had a chance to play.
    5. Sengoku rewards opportunistic style of play. It becomes easy if you can spot trends on the map quickly, build an accurate picture of how the situation is most likely to develop and then exploit it. It's a lot more reactive. Setting a particular objective is hard because map is very fluid, clans come and go all the time so instead of building up scenarios, one tends to be happy with just exploiting existing ones. Not sure if I can convey it properly.
    6. After an 8-hour session with CK2, Sengoku can, and does, feel a little lacking. It's not quite chess vs checkers but it's not far off.
    7. I still prefer Sengoku music.
    8. MIH makes Sengoku a lot better for me, personally. Easier. Out of the box the game is unforgivig, it really is. Things move quickly and you think you rock because you've conquered 20% of the map. Then some people die, other people inherit their land, blobs form and before you know it you are facing a 40% clan on your doorstep which has just casually declared on you and this is your game done, just like that, after 15 hours of play. Happened to me 3 times so far. Even the Nanbu aren't safe. It's a bit galling, to be honest; sometimes, no matter what you do, someone will just smash through half of Japan a lot faster than you can and you'll just have to take it. Sorry.

    More points to follow, hopefully.
    Last edited by Brick Top; 14-06-2012 at 10:04.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
    3. Sengoku is harder. It really is. AI can be ruthless and wastes no time at all. Don't be ashamed to start on Easy.
    This.

    I routinely win my games of EU3 and Vic II. In EU3, the AI's focus is very broad and one can concentrate on a specific strategy to gain the advantage. In Vic II, most any industrialized country can build massive armies & navies and dominate the end-game.

    My "win rate" in vanilla Sengoku? Approximately 60%.

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