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Thread: Make Vassal Degrees of Freedom Be Determined by the De Facto Liege's Laws, Please

  1. #1
    Lt. General Hyzhenhok's Avatar
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    Make Vassal Degrees of Freedom Be Determined by the De Facto Liege's Laws, Please

    It is utterly absurd that your Crown Authority laws have ZERO affect on your vassals if they are subject to another De Jure kingdom. Oh, it's zero effects except for the relations penalty. Who's bright idea was this?

    If you're playing as an independent Kingdom of Bohemia or Sicily, it seems, your Crown Authority NEVER takes effect, because the HRE/Byzantium laws are always superior. This doesn't make any sense. Why should it be that my clever machinations to force my scary neighbor's Crown Authority laws downward result in my own vassals suddenly becoming free? There is nothing I can do to prevent my vassals from fighting one another besides pray that the Empire raises its Crown Authority.

    It is really frustrating when you have a vassal running around collecting all of the Duchies in your realm, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of becoming a massive tyrant.

    This also leads to silliness such as the Duchy of Apulia being un-inheritable if the Byzantine Empire has High or Max Crown Authority. Even if the inheritor is also located in the De Jure Empire!

    At least disable the Realm Laws for Kingdoms that are underneath Empires, so as not to falsely give us the impression that we might actually be able to make the rules in our own kingdoms.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

  2. #2
    On Probation Galaahd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyzhenhok View Post
    This also leads to silliness such as the Duchy of Apulia being un-inheritable if the Byzantine Empire has High or Max Crown Authority. Even if the inheritor is also located in the De Jure Empire!
    I don't get this point. Why?

  3. #3
    I guess it's because at very high crown authority laws, nothing can be lost to the empire through outside inheritance. Seems silly to me for this also to affect independent kingdoms which happen to be on the de jure area of the empire...

    I have no experience with these issues as I have not really yet played in that area. But it does sound very silly. Maybe it's a bug?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaahd View Post
    I don't get this point. Why?
    High Realm Authority makes it so that realm lands cannot be inherited by an independent ruler outside of the kingdom/empire. This (like all Realm Laws) applies to De Jure vassals as well as De Facto.

    But when judging whether or not someone is a legal inheritor, only De Facto vassals of the Realm Title are eligible. If you are independent (regardless of whether you are also a De Jure vassal of the Empire) then you are ineligible.

    As an example: say you're playing as the Count of Napoli, Sergios I. You become the Duke of Capua and Salerno, and line up a marriage with the Duchess of Apulia, Emma d'Hauteville. Your son Sergios II should be heir of both, right?

    Wrong. When Sergios II becomes Duke of Capua-Salerno, he is no longer eligible to inherit the Duchy of Apulia because the Byzantine Empire has High crown authority. High crown authority means Apulia cannot be inherited by a ruler unless he a de facto member of the Byzantine empire. Sergios II is independent, so he is not eligible. However, if he pledges allegiance to the Byzantine Empire, suddenly he becomes eligible. But why shouldn't he be eligble beforehand? After all, he a de jure vassal of the Byzantine Empire from the start, and Crown Laws are supposed to apply on a De Jure level.

    Edit: To be clear, I've been playing a game as a Greek Orthodox Kingdom of Sicily, and I've spent the better part of 250 years poaching the Emperor's vassals for myself (and a part of it as a vassal myself, before I managed to get independent again), so I'm pretty familiar with how this works.
    Last edited by Hyzhenhok; 16-02-2012 at 17:26.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

  5. #5
    I think I would be pissed if I am dependent on what the Byzantines do with their crown laws, if I were an independent King. Am I right in the assumption that the same would happen to an independent kingdom of Bohemia? Or a Kingdom of Burgundy (I think they are in the de jure HRE)?
    Very silly.

  6. #6
    On Probation Galaahd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galdor123 View Post
    I think I would be pissed if I am dependent on what the Byzantines do with their crown laws, if I were an independent King. Am I right in the assumption that the same would happen to an independent kingdom of Bohemia? Or a Kingdom of Burgundy (I think they are in the de jure HRE)?
    Very silly.
    Kingdom of Burgundy isn't in the De Jure HRE, IIRC.

    Anyway, a partial solution would be to remove southern Italy from the Byzantine Empire. It doesn't make sense for it to be part of the Byzantine Empire in any case... northern Italy being part of HRE would make much more sense actually.

  7. #7
    Paradox Unofficial Poker Brat Drakken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyzhenhok View Post
    High Realm Authority makes it so that realm lands cannot be inherited by an independent ruler outside of the kingdom/empire. This (like all Realm Laws) applies to De Jure vassals as well as De Facto.
    Why not? It was the same even in the 19th century, for instance Hanover going to a male relative because its Crown Law is Salic Law when Victoria became Queen of Great-Britain.

    All de jure domains have their own traditions, laws, and customs, and trying to go against them is a recipe for disaster. Ask any King of Castille about Aragon crown laws, even with someone as friggin' powerful as Charles Quint.

  8. #8
    Lt. General Hyzhenhok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakken View Post
    Why not? It was the same even in the 19th century, for instance Hanover going to a male relative because the Crown Law is Salic Law when Victoria became Queen of Great-Britain.
    I think it's great that various kingdoms can maintain separate inheritance laws, but the way crown laws work is absurd. Vassals in Hanover weren't allowed to make war on one another simply because the HRE was more decentralized than Great Britain.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyzhenhok View Post
    I think it's great that various kingdoms can maintain separate inheritance laws, but the way crown laws work is absurd.
    No, it's not. Each realm has its own institutions and laws, and you should have to change it one by one. Fairly historical.

    In fact, I find it's too easy to change crown laws, and there are too few crown laws.

  10. #10
    On Probation Galaahd's Avatar
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    Can you inherit your own lands as indipendent king of Sicily if the Byzantine Empire has absolute crown authority?

  11. #11
    It's baffling to me that the deHautevilles of all people have to care what the Byzantine Emperor thinks of their inheiritances. No. Just no. If it's WAD, it's bad WAD.
    What other franchise could make a player nostalgic for consanguinity inheiritance law?

  12. #12
    Lt. General Hyzhenhok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakken View Post
    No, it's not. Each realm has its own institutions and laws, and you should have to change it one by one. Fairly historical.

    In fact, I find it's too easy to change crown laws, and there are too few crown laws.
    Well, what I'm complaining about is another realm's institutions changing too easily, and then those changes being transplanted onto my vassals instantly with me having zero control. Doesn't strike me as historical whatsoever.

    Since Crown Authority laws in particular are an abstract representation of the realm's cohesion and monarch's power, there's really no good reason for them to apply outside of the De Facto realm.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakken View Post
    No, it's not. Each realm has its own institutions and laws, and you should have to change it one by one. Fairly historical.

    In fact, I find it's too easy to change crown laws, and there are too few crown laws.
    The complaint is that crown laws apply to independent realms within the du jour borders. If I just fought a war of independence against my leige, why am I still under his laws after I win my freedom? If I am King of Scotland, why is my vassal the Duke of York (conquered) following the laws of the King of England rather than my laws? It seems really game-y.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaahd View Post
    Can you inherit your own lands as indipendent king of Sicily if the Byzantine Empire has absolute crown authority?
    As long as titles are being inherited by un-landed courtiers, Sicilian or Byzantine vassals, the law doesn't apply. Though I'm fairly certain I could remove a son from the inheritance list if I made him King of Africa, because that would make him an independent ruler.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

  15. #15
    Yes, if you are an independent king, your should be able to set your own crown laws (starting at minimal authority if forming a new kingdom). If you get vassalized by an emperor, then his crown laws should probably be in effect.

  16. #16
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaahd View Post
    Kingdom of Burgundy isn't in the De Jure HRE, IIRC.

    Anyway, a partial solution would be to remove southern Italy from the Byzantine Empire. It doesn't make sense for it to be part of the Byzantine Empire in any case... northern Italy being part of HRE would make much more sense actually.
    One of the first things I changed was removing the kingdoms of Sicily and Croatia from the de jure eastern Roman 'Byzantine' empire. The kingdom of Jerusalem IMHO could go either way.

  17. #17
    On Probation Galaahd's Avatar
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    Technically with the current system Frederick II wouldn't be able to inherit Kingdom of Sicily if the Byzantines had High Crown Authority as it happened historically
    Last edited by Galaahd; 16-02-2012 at 17:50.

  18. #18
    The current system just leads to a bunch of silly scenarios where independent realms follow laws that they would never follow. For example, as King of Ireland, I married the independent Duchess of York and Northumbria. We had a daughter followed by a son. Due to English crown laws (the Kingdom of England was totally fractured into 3-4 independent duchies, it had no rule of the Duchess), our firstborn daughter was heir to the English territories while the son was heir to the Irish crown. All titles had the same inheritance law, but different heirs resulted because English crown law didn't allow outside realm inheritance, even though the Duchess is totally free from weak, civil war torn England. This just seems silly under primogeniture (which everyone was under).

  19. #19
    On Probation Galaahd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossier View Post
    The current system just leads to a bunch of silly scenarios where independent realms follow laws that they would never follow. For example, as King of Ireland, I married the independent Duchess of York and Northumbria. We had a daughter followed by a son. Due to English crown laws (the Kingdom of England was totally fractured into 3-4 independent duchies, it had no rule of the Duchess), our firstborn daughter was heir to the English territories while the son was heir to the Irish crown. All titles had the same inheritance law, but different heirs resulted because English crown law didn't allow outside realm inheritance, even though the Duchess is totally free from weak, civil war torn England. This just seems silly under primogeniture (which everyone was under).
    Not that absurd nor silly, imho. If you want that duchy, you have a claim. You can press on it, get the title and once you obtain it you will be able to pass it to your heir.

  20. #20
    Lt. General Hyzhenhok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaahd View Post
    Not that absurd nor silly, imho.
    It is absolutely absurd and silly. Why should the Crown Authority laws (which represent the strength and cohesion of a realm) apply when the strength and cohesion of that realm is de facto as low as it can go? The King of England should be required to have the actual allegiance of the Duchess of Lancaster before he can wave his piece of paper that says High Crown Authority around and prevent the King of Ireland from inheriting.
    This post is is liable to be still under construction up to 10 minutes after its initial posting.

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