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Why can't we play Muslims or pagans?

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Captain Gars said:
There's a difference between arguing and agitating for a change. There's also a difference between suggesting changes and saying that we removed features from the game to screw our customers.
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Percentage-wise, I feel very few people have said this. If you think it qualifies that I said it seems likely the reason unplayable other religions is hard-coded into the game and not moddable is so mods don't compete with a possible DLC, fair enough - I could be wrong and freely admit it. But it's very hard to find a comparison in other modern Paradox games to have such a thing be hard-coded and unmoddable (and the demo has shown that there's no reason you can't play them, technically), so it can't really be too surprising that people would wonder, surely?

Edit: Also, unless I'm very much misreading him, King specifically said the reason there was no playable yes/no option in religions.txt was so because otherwise it'd be hard to sell DLCs of it: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?585629-cannot-play-a-theocracy&p=13434299&viewfull=1#post13434299
 
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Darkrenown said:
Why do you assume Johan is involved or is at all against adding playable Muslims?
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Because he said so. Specifically: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?537274-Feeling-a-bit-bummed-out-about-Muslims-and-the-Papacy-being-unplayable&p=12429934&viewfull=1#post12429934

The game will only have christian feudal rulers playable.

No merchant republics, no moslems, no pagans, no mongol hordes, no religious orders, etc...

The mechanics designed just do not fit for them, and in the scope of CRUSADER KINGS we want to make a game about playing crusader kings.

If the game is popular enough, we'll probably make expansions.. Maybe one of them could allow something else to be played, but I'm not sure thats a good focus yet...
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Emphasis mine. Given that CK1 never had an expansion to make Muslims or pagans playable, this statement does not make me confident that such a DLC is indeed inevitable or that Johan is in favour of it (he has made other negative remarks about playable Muslims in other CKII threads as well).

I know not letting you play as anyone on the map is a change from our other games (although not CK1), normally you can play as anyone in the game because it's cool to be able to do so, but this is why many nations don't feel as fleshed out in them. CK2 continues in the footsteps of CK1 and focuses on only one group of playable nations.
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Acknowledged, and indeed I've already pointed out that even as is factions like the Byzantines, Scottish and Rus sadly don't have a lot of unique flavour as it stands. I don't mind if there's Muslim DLC because I expect it will be better than if it was part of the base game. I just want there to be a Muslim DLC. :)
 
Kyoumen said:
Given that CK1 never had an expansion to make Muslims or pagans playable, this statement does not make me confident that such a DLC is indeed inevitable
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The reason CK1 never got an expansion was most likely because the base game wasn't profitable enough to warrant one - not because Paradox don't want to add more content and make other factions playable.
 
Captain Gars said:
The reason CK1 never got an expansion was most likely because the base game wasn't profitable enough to warrant one - not because Paradox don't want to add more content and make other factions playable.
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Crusader Kings did get an expansion - Deus Vult. It just never got anything that made Muslims or pagans (or Jews) playable. It was profitable enough to get an expansion, but it was not judged a priority to make other factions playable in that expansion. That's precisely what I'm afraid might happen now as well. Announce that a Muslim DLC is coming, with a Pagan one to follow if that sells to or above expectations, and you'll shut up me and a lot of others. :)
 
Kyoumen said:
Because he said so. Specifically: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?537274-Feeling-a-bit-bummed-out-about-Muslims-and-the-Papacy-being-unplayable&p=12429934&viewfull=1#post12429934
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Emphasis mine. Given that CK1 never had an expansion to make Muslims or pagans playable, this statement does not make me confident that such a DLC is indeed inevitable or that Johan is in favour of it (he has made other negative remarks about playable Muslims in other CKII threads as well).
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He was talking about the base game there (and that's a rather old post). If you check King's post you just linked to above, he says:
King said:
When we come to ship a Muslim DLC (Johan promised this a while back so it is bound to happen)
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So it seems a safe bet that you will have a Muslim DLC sooner or later.
 
Kyoumen said:
Crusader Kings did get an expansion - Deus Vult. It just never got anything that made Muslims or pagans (or Jews) playable. It was profitable enough to get an expansion, but it was not judged a priority to make other factions playable in that expansion. That's precisely what I'm afraid might happen now as well. Announce that a Muslim DLC is coming, with a Pagan one to follow if that sells to or above expectations, and you'll shut up me and a lot of others. :)
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Original CK was far from polished game (Thanks to Snowball who were supposed to develope CK, but they dropped the ball and Paradox had to pick up the pieces), so I think there was much more important things to improve in expansion than making Muslims playable. It took several patches and one expansion to get even the Christians work properly. (Although despite it's shortcomings it still was a great game). CKII on the other hand seems to be relatively bugfree and finished product on it's release, so who knows what kind of nice expansions we will get in the future.
 
Darkrenown said:
He was talking about the base game there (and that's a rather old post). If you check King's post you just linked to above, he says:


So it seems a safe bet that you will have a Muslim DLC sooner or later.
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/squeee

Now if only we can nudge one of yall into giving similar hope for Pagans.

Huh? *nudge nudge* Pagans? *nudge nudge* Lead all of Europe to the glory of Odin? *nudge nudge*
 
I don't agree on locking out the other factions because there isn't enough content is a lame excuse. I played the Pruthenians in the demo (wanted to create Prussia quickly), HRE marriage kept Poland at bay, put claims on Memel duchy, then HRE spouce died. Two choices, go for a smaller alliance and risk the inevitable Poland assault or swallow my pagan pride and become a vassal of the HRE (cause they are gonna come, one way or not!) Went HRE, my pagan hordes all threw down there spears and went fishing... Not enough soldiers to even siege a county. Built up my baronies, and when the time was right (my son is screaming for a title) I take memel with some HRE help (thanks guys!)... What I lost from playing a paga-, no ability to hunt... No asking the liege for a title, and a few plots.

Here's the link to play anyone http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?586358-Here-s-how-to-play-as-pagans-Muslims
 
I don't even get this hostility from the devs. Our whole argument is why would you hard lock something that could have easily been modded in?
I'm new here and I don't know your reasoning or anything on this; from my perspective it appears that you have taken an anti modding stance.

You have every right to restrict modders it just seems like such a strange position to take when Paradox games have always welcomed and encouraged modding before.
Why take an anti modding stance now? It isn't like it would cost Paradox money if someone else added pagens to the game.

Ok I see now a dev saying that there will be DLC, so does this mean from now on this will be the norm? Features that would have been modable will be locked so that DLC can cover those areas, I guess its not too shocking since this is what most major publishers/developers do but it is a bit of a let down.
 
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geldalin said:
Ok I see now a dev saying that there will be DLC, so does this mean from now on this will be the norm? Features that would have been modable will be locked so that DLC can cover those areas, I guess its not too shocking since this is what most major publishers/developers do but it is a bit of a let down.
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I don't feel it is a let-down at all. There are always items in a game that are hard coded. Always. You can't swap out the 3D rendering engine, for instance. But you wouldn't call that an anti-modding stance, would you?

As others have pointed out in this thread, to make that work as anything other than a reskin is a lot of work. Historically-speaking, the dynasty logic, AI, reasons for gaining/losing piety, pretty much everything needs to be reworked for the muslims. Paradox has a full-time team to do this; modders do not. We now have confirmation from the devs that they intend to add this as a future expansion, so doubtless they will get it done (and do a quality job of it) much faster than a modding team would.

I get it - you want the ability to add in your muslim mods now, and they haven't allowed you to do that. You wish they had. Fair enough. But it's a real stretch to say they are anti-modding because they haven't allowed that particular item to be modded right now. There are *plenty* of other things to mod in the meantime.
 
This may be totally silly point because I'm only really familiar with CK1. BUT:

This argument "Players shouldn't be able to play as Muslims because their society cannot be well represented by the basic feudal mechanics of the game." bugs me. The Muslim AI is already playing by those rules, isn't it? If the basic mechanics of the game are only ever a satisfactory fit for Christian societies, aren't people bothered the Muslims are behaving so unrealistically in vanilla?
 
chameleon_skin said:
I don't feel it is a let-down at all. There are always items in a game that are hard coded. Always. You can't swap out the 3D rendering engine, for instance. But you wouldn't call that an anti-modding stance, would you?
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Still it would be nice to have the option; I think modding pagans into the game would be easier than replacing the games engine (which would be far more than a mod).

My point is there is no reason to hard code it so you can't edit religions at all. I mean it's sort of a strawman to imply that i'm asking for total engine redesign to be possible (i'm not).

chameleon_skin said:
I get it - you want the ability to add in your muslim mods now, and they haven't allowed you to do that. You wish they had. Fair enough. But it's a real stretch to say they are anti-modding because they haven't allowed that particular item to be modded right now. There are *plenty* of other things to mod in the meantime.
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I agree I don't really know why they chose to make this particular feature locked in like this, I was just saying to an outsider like me it appears as if they are taking an anti-modding stance at least in regard to this particular game feature.

It's not as if they couldn't create their own DLC and also allow modders to do what they wish with the in game factions.
 
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Well I should reiterate Muslim and Pagan countries are unplayable and it is not possible to mod them into a playable state, I simply assumed other non Christian countries would also be unplayable; also I probably shouldn't have said religion is totally unmodable so much as its impossible to mod them for play.

This was told to me by a good friend who is in the process of modding CK2 when I asked him if it was possible to unlock the Muslim/Pagan countries. So I can't personally say I have tried but I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

I don't want to sound ungrateful to the devs either what I have seen of CK2 is great and very well made; I'm just a bit let down that there is no way to at the very least have a mod that allows Pagan play like the cheat detailed in the topic linked earlier.
 
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geldalin said:
Ok I see now a dev saying that there will be DLC, so does this mean from now on this will be the norm? Features that would have been modable will be locked so that DLC can cover those areas
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CK2 - Muslim DLC is at least considered. Not an option to mod muslim/pagan playability.
CK1 - no muslim/pagan expansions or DLCs. Muslim/pagan mod here (I played it a few years ago)

Although I don't dare to make any conclusions on general DLC/mod policy, there are some visible patterns not just in CK but in other PI games too - modders being hired to make DLCs or spinoff games and stopping their modding work from that moment.

Personally I think it is wonderful that PI appreciates talented modders by giving them opportunity to work on business product. New modders will always arise to replace those who left free modding space. But on the other hand, this policy should not make things harder or impossible to mod for those who continue making mods.
 
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