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Thread: Why can't we play Muslims or pagans?

  1. #261
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    If you're just going to "TL;DR" other people, why don't you just go ahead and leave, since you don't seem to grasp what forums are for?

    Also that is blatantly false, the hard-coding is there expressly for the purpose of protecting their DLC from being used without paying, so obviously they aren't going to remove it when it's time to start selling it. It won't work, since DRM never does, but that's just wrong.
    so in other words your real gripe is with a certain corporate/marketing strategy and not really with what factions are currently playable. if that's what you want to rant about, I'm sure you can find an appropriate thread for it instead of attempting to subvert this one.

    by the way, the forums are for back-and-forth discourse. not for preaching and ramming your issues down people's throats.


    and let this be a note to others who's real issue is that they think Paradox simply held back Pagan and Muslim factions just to profit off of DLC: 1. if so, that's their prerogative, and they are late comers to that party anyway and 2. then you already know the answer as to why you can't currently play muslim and pagan factions (without easy workarounds) so 3. don't subvert one thread to insinuate your issues with a marketing model you think PDox may have adopted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaus Petrus View Post
    So? Why did you even buy the game, if it is so horribly broken and greedy Paradox is just screwing it's customers with their expensive DLCs? Boycotting CKII and buying competing feudal strategy game instead of CKII would have been more efficient way to combat against the evil ways of Paradox.

    Almost no one here disagrees that playable Muslims would be nice addition, but some of us are perfectly happy with the product which we already have. If Paradox is willing to make the extra work and change the game, so that Muslims will be also playable (which requires changes to game mechanics and balance) then we don't have any issues to pay them for their work. If base game is good enough and future expansions offer something worth paying for then why complain? I don't really see any problem here, but then again I'm a person who often buys all kinds of expansions to his favourite computer, board and roleplaying games (although only if they offer something worth buying). I'm content with CKII and consider that it's one of the best games I have ever played. I'm glad they focused their efforts to get the feudal system work better than in CKI.
    Olaus said it best. +1
    Last edited by AllThat4Nothing; 21-02-2012 at 12:48.
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  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
    Your comment is quite thick and off reality. I dont read every thread but so far, I cant see that much complaint that the game is eurocentric. Taking a look at Nubia and Axum faces or Mongol faces in vanilla shows the way it is though.

    It is also quite stupid to claim that a customer has to be a muslim to question certain sides of the game, like the possibility that the game locks certain content of the game so it can be sold a second time later. Or that people who want to enjoy the game and playing as such muslims factions or heathens have not to be muslim or pagan. By the way, do you have to be a muslim to skip the fact that the thread title reads "why cant we play Muslims or pagans?


    Beyond the events and stuff like that(they can be added through mods?), I wonder if the Muslims factions would be playable as such. I have now holdings in former muslim land (Alexandria, Egypt, Axum, Ascalon, Jerusalem, Antiochea and two or three more counties)

    Incredible army potential which beats the holdings in Europe(Wales, Ireland, Scotland, half of England, Brittany, half of North France)

    Middle east holding must be something like 30K soldiers.

    To move around that number of soldiers, you need 300 galleys, hence 30 coastal counties. Which the muslims do not have. So it limits mechanically the AI.

    But you can acquire five coastal counties then 50 galleys and then be along to move around 5k soldier chunk.

    A human player can easily play the restriction of landing, landing 5k at a time, buying time and once a foothold of 15K soldiers, reinforcing along the way. This before the human player targets specifically coastal provinces to increase the navy capacity before moving inland. At this moment, the navy issue is only a matter of money.

    I feel that the current demographics power (due to the technological gap) in middle east counties is too much to allow a human player to play muslim factions. It suits the current gameplay, with muslims having to defend against crusades, calling waves after waves to repell crusaders to the seas but I dont see a human player be limited by the low projection capacity muslims have.

    Landing a 15k army in Europe is a game changer in the current version.

    What is the experience of players who played muslims from the start? What prevents you from taking advantage of the formidable gap that exists to get easy land in Europe?

    I feel that if there is a DLC to play muslims, it will change the current balance of the game deeply. Current mechanics do not look as if they can accomodate muslims.

    It might be the same for Pagans who probably have the opposite issue, lagging behind in the technology side so much, it makes it difficult to develop a gameplay of the same base as the game offers.
    I don't understand what your point?

    I never said that you should be muslim to enjoy muslim. I only said with Muslim DLC Paradox can give better attention to Muslim area.

    I argue that releasing muslim DLC as future expansion is good, better than releasing muslim as playable at vanilla. From your argument you are agreeing with me?

    BTW people will always want that their region get attention, if you don't believe me read the thread in forum about why the name of specific county is wrong, why this river in this side not that side, why Finish should be kingdom at start, there's plenty of thread nitpicking small detail like that.

  3. #263
    OT iconoclast StephenT's Avatar
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    So what do people think that playing as a Muslim lord would be like?

    I'm not an expert in the period, and hopefully some people here are. (And by 'expert' I don't mean, "I've played Mediaeval Total War!' ) But from what I know about the 'iqta system and Fatimid/Abbasid government, the main differences would be:

    1. You can't inherit fiefs. You're appointed to them by the king and can be removed from them at his whim.
    2. You don't control any troops. (Though the king can put you in charge of his own armies).
    3. You aren't responsible for building improvements or infrastructure in your fiefs.
    4. Polygamy means that dynastic marriages and succession work completely differently.
    5. Plots and assassinations would work the same.

    Now to my eyes that looks like it removes 80% of the game content, and would be completely unfun - unless you play at king level, in which case it would be much, much easier, since you control so much more under your direct power than any European monarch of the period did. But maybe I'm missing something?

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark3lf View Post
    I don't understand what your point?

    I never said that you should be muslim to enjoy muslim. I only said with Muslim DLC Paradox can give better attention to Muslim area.

    At least now paradox have a time to do event for muslim faction, reducing future complaint from muslim customer.
    I dont want to build up on that topic as you cant assume your words in spite of the comfort of anonymity.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
    I dont want to build up on that topic as you cant assume your words in spite of the comfort of anonymity.
    Seriously, read it carefully, with muslim DLC paradox can give justice to muslim area, reducing future complaint from muslim customer. From that you are assuming that i said?
    1. customer has to be a muslim to question certain sides of the game
    2. people who want to enjoy the game and playing as such muslims factions or heathens have not to be muslim or pagan

    Do you even bother to read what the original text that i reply on? Stop assuming thing please.
    Last edited by Dark3lf; 21-02-2012 at 15:29.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterofMagic View Post
    Because that will be a totally new game and 99to1 DLC for the future for you to pay them an additional $19.99 or more.
    And it would be worth the price of a new game because it would, in effect, be a whole new game.

    CKII is huge as it is. While there is no problem with wanting to play pagan or Muslim I think some of us are just astounded how people are DEMANDING that it be part of the original game. You have guys on here saying they refuse to play until Muslim rulers are available. Crazy and worst of all they are dishonest because they are obviously just not that into what the game is. It has nothing to do with whether Muslim's should be in or not.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanctus View Post
    Paradox is not my friend. They are a company. They make products for me to buy. I don't care that they lived up to their "promise"; I care about getting a product with the features I want. It just so happens that this game comes without a specific feature that I and many other people wanted. Paradox runs these forums in part to get customer feedback. I am, with other likeminded customers, sharing feedback.

    As for the latter part... Do you have any proof that they didn't deliberately leave this feature out so they could make some extra cash on DLC?
    Paradox has delivered a great game for a good price. The fact that that isn't good enough for some is ridiculous. Some people are spoilt brats.

    It is entirely reasonable for us to pay more for a Muslim expansion. Paradox is reasonable in expecting to make more money off a Muslim expansion after having provided us with a core game that is solid and in-depth in its own right. Peoples entitlement sickens me. You have a great game!! Say thank you and make it clear that you are willing to buy an expansion if it adds to that depth instead of bitching that you are being taken advantage of by a greedy company.

    Yes, I also want the pagans and Muslims as options but since the core game is so good I cannot in all honestly criticize them for making mileage out of it as long as the Muslims aren't just more rulers and do in fact have different society.

    It is entirely reasonable of them (after they have provided us with a great game for 20) to give us an expansion with additional detailed in-depth mechanics specific to a new group of cultures for 10.

    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...
    We have a game worth 20 already...

    You are not entitled to more.

    And this argument that Mods should be allowed... no, not if it relates to the specific area they are planning on expanding, because it will influence sales. It is completely reasonable for them to take precautions. You are not entitled to Mod anything. Modding is there to extend the life span of a game, same as an expansion. Paradox is entirely reasonable to do this if they think it will be better financially for them.

    My God, people, grow up.
    Last edited by Staal; 21-02-2012 at 17:07.

  8. #268
    Corporal nasd55's Avatar
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    I would like to play the Muslins or the pagans, but this game is so good and big, that it would be no problem to pay a bit more for a DLC that would in all aspects be very different in gameplay.

    And another thing, this game is called CRUSADER KINGS, the Muslins had Jihad not Crusades, so is all fairness, they made what i think is a just call, if this was called Medievel Rulers or something like that, then we could ask why would't we be able to play the muslins.

    It looks like that if you can't fault the game, because it is really good, and really doesn't have the big bugs that nowadays seem so part of releases, people have to find something to complain about, just play the game and in time we will see if they will give us the option, and if you guys don't want to pay, it's your right, but again, this is Crusader Kings, so you rage is kind of strange...

  9. #269
    I want to play pagan, but I don't want to have it for free - I want to pay for it.

    Because this means there will be more development resources spent and there will be specific pagan mechanics, events etc. Even if the mod community can produce some amazing things, there is no substitute for an officially supported expansion integrated with the core game - which can then be even further extended by modding. And I want the best gaming experience so I prefer to pay for more total development time instead of Paradox just enabling something day 1 to padd the feature list without having a budget to do it properly.

  10. #270
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    There is a Pagan/Muslim playable MOD in the Mod Forum !




    .....now all stop farting hot air.
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  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark3lf View Post
    Seriously, read it carefully, with muslim DLC paradox can give justice to muslim area, reducing future complaint from muslim customer. From that you are assuming that i said?
    1. customer has to be a muslim to question certain sides of the game
    2. people who want to enjoy the game and playing as such muslims factions or heathens have not to be muslim or pagan

    Do you even bother to read what the original text that i reply on? Stop assuming thing please.
    Again:

    At least now paradox have a time to do event for muslim faction, reducing future complaint from muslim customer.
    Weaseling out. And badly.

  12. #272
    No feedback on the question of knowing if the current mechanics could support Muslim play (here, not talking about a lack of content, events, differences between factions) but the core mechanics.

    Would be interested in knowing that because in my game, Mauritania has conquered Toulouse duchy, using their holdings in Spain. That is waves of 10K after 10K from their spanish holdings. It's going to be hard to stop them.

    If the AI can do it, I wonder how a human player can not do it and much earlier than 1290s.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
    Weaseling out. And badly.
    Seriously at this point i think you need professional help. I really meant what i meant.

    At least now paradox have a time to do event for muslim faction, reducing future complaint from muslim customer.
    Which part of this equal with
    1. customer has to be a muslim to question certain sides of the game
    2. people who want to enjoy the game and playing as such muslims factions or heathens have not to be muslim or pagan

  14. #274
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
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    ChienAboyeur will you get off Dark3lf's back? He's from Indonesia, his english is very good but not 100%, I think the issue is you're getting something out of his words that he isn't intending due to having to use a secondary language. Cut the guy some slack.

    By the way people, PDox never "promised" you you could play Muslim and Pagan factions right out of the box. Stop beating that dead horse.
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  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenT View Post
    So what do people think that playing as a Muslim lord would be like?

    I'm not an expert in the period, and hopefully some people here are. (And by 'expert' I don't mean, "I've played Mediaeval Total War!' ) But from what I know about the 'iqta system and Fatimid/Abbasid government, the main differences would be:

    1. You can't inherit fiefs. You're appointed to them by the king and can be removed from them at his whim.
    2. You don't control any troops. (Though the king can put you in charge of his own armies).
    3. You aren't responsible for building improvements or infrastructure in your fiefs.
    4. Polygamy means that dynastic marriages and succession work completely differently.
    5. Plots and assassinations would work the same.

    Now to my eyes that looks like it removes 80% of the game content, and would be completely unfun - unless you play at king level, in which case it would be much, much easier, since you control so much more under your direct power than any European monarch of the period did. But maybe I'm missing something?
    I've been wondering this, and the same with people who want playable republics and bishoprics. Inheritance of land and power are core to this game, and if appointment decides fiefs rather than inheritance, then how does the game work? Who do you play when your character dies, and how do you make it fun?

  16. #276
    I got too lazy to read thru all these pages, but I know people have already posted that it IS possible to play these factions:

    Create a new game using any christian leader. Save.

    Open your save game with Notepad. CTRL F to find the character you want to play. Write down the ID.

    hit "`" (asterik) to bring up your console and type " play <charID>" example: play 123456

    I believe this was already posted in the mods section?

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincotta82 View Post
    I got too lazy to read thru all these pages, but I know people have already posted that it IS possible to play these factions:

    Create a new game using any christian leader. Save.

    Open your save game with Notepad. CTRL F to find the character you want to play. Write down the ID.

    hit "`" (asterik) to bring up your console and type " play <charID>" example: play 123456

    I believe this was already posted in the mods section?
    that's not the same as being able to play those factions legitimately. which we all will be able to soon.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing View Post
    that's not the same as being able to play those factions legitimately. which we all will be able to soon.
    You mean that even though you will be playing Pagan or Muslim leaders, they still are hardcoded fundamentally as the current Christian leaders?

  19. #279
    do you complain if you can't play indians in EU: Rome?
    Or terrorists in Call Of duty????

    I don't understand what you mean?

    What a generation of people we have, never happy even if it is the only and best game of the genre

  20. #280
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincotta82 View Post
    You mean that even though you will be playing Pagan or Muslim leaders, they still are hardcoded fundamentally as the current Christian leaders?
    right. as has been said before, due to fundemental differences in governance and other aspects, to "properly" play Pagan and Muslim factions will require new coding. So as for now, yes, we can mod the files and play Pagans and Muslims, but they will function as clones of fuedal christian europeans.
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