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Thread: Why can't we play Muslims or pagans?

  1. #101
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    You could always piss off the religious ones ingame heh.

  2. #102
    Lt. General Kyoumen's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by flame7926 View Post
    Its not because the game is called Crusader Kings that it is focused on that. That has just been the intent from the start and was the intent of the original game. Its not about the era, its about the European societies. Its not like EU3 with pretty generic mechanics for all countries, just different tech groups and religions. There would have to be some pretty fundamental differences to play as muslims and mongols.
    Once again, you could say the same thing about the non-hereditary, non-feudal Byzantine Empire. And yet it does indeed have the exact same "pretty generic mechanics". Arguably the mechanics of the game don't really apply anywhere outside of France and the HRE, and there's lot of things you could point out that are simplified and genericised there, too. It is no more historically inaccurate to have Muslims using that generic feudal system (or indeed any generic system, as it wasn't as if all Muslim-led states were run the same way) than it is to have the Byzantines (who had two co-reigning empresses less than 25 years before game start) under that system.

    CK has never been, or intended to be, an accurate political simulator. It is a game of dynastic family politics and infighting, that uses a abstract feudal system based loosely on the French/German one of the time period. Arguing the real reasons Muslims aren't playable is that their governments didn't work that way is silly; absolute nobody's government worked like the CK one does. The system doesn't represent Scottish clans, Rus political structure, Norse/Icelandic assemblies or any number of other major features of government of places that are actually playable.

    Now, you can argue the amount of work to make Muslims playable would take away from other features of the game, or the marketing focus of the game (which is the real reason, IMO, but of course I could be wrong), but it's certainly not because it would have required some enormous overhaul of the system to play them. They could have been playable with only minor cosmetic tweaks to the system everyone else uses, just like everyone else who is playable.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoumen View Post
    Once again, you could say the same thing about the non-hereditary, non-feudal Byzantine Empire. And yet it does indeed have the exact same "pretty generic mechanics". Arguably the mechanics of the game don't really apply anywhere outside of France and the HRE, and there's lot of things you could point out that are simplified and genericised there, too. It is no more historically inaccurate to have Muslims using that generic feudal system (or indeed any generic system, as it wasn't as if all Muslim-led states were run the same way) than it is to have the Byzantines (who had two co-reigning empresses less than 25 years before game start) under that system.

    CK has never been, or intended to be, an accurate political simulator. It is a game of dynastic family politics and infighting, that uses a abstract feudal system based loosely on the French/German one of the time period. Arguing the real reasons Muslims aren't playable is that their governments didn't work that way is silly; absolute nobody's government worked like the CK one does. The system doesn't represent Scottish clans, Rus political structure, Norse/Icelandic assemblies or any number of other major features of government of places that are actually playable.

    Now, you can argue the amount of work to make Muslims playable would take away from other features of the game, or the marketing focus of the game (which is the real reason, IMO, but of course I could be wrong), but it's certainly not because it would have required some enormous overhaul of the system to play them. They could have been playable with only minor cosmetic tweaks to the system everyone else uses, just like everyone else who is playable.
    Well I think the real reason is so they could charge $10 for playable Muslims (and then another $10 for playable pagans later), but otherwise agreed.

  4. #104
    Lt. General Kyoumen's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calanctus View Post
    Well I think the real reason is so they could charge $10 for playable Muslims (and then another $10 for playable pagans later), but otherwise agreed.
    To be clear, I at least am fine with that, since if playable Muslims/Pagans are DLCs, they'll get more attention than they would have as part of the base game.

    My main concern is the possibility that that will not be made, since it was never made for Ck1, and Johan is on record as not seeing the need for such a DLC. As I said before, hopefully the fact there's a new thread about this every other day will show that there is indeed a need in terms of customer demand.

  5. #105
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    Design decisions were made, and the devs made the best game possible under those early decisions. I don't think that it's fair to blame them for not creating the game that you wanted them to. A lot of work has been put in to make the features that have been implemented work as beautifully as possible, and the first release of a new Paradox game is just establishing a beachhead. If it does well, then more territory can be covered.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoumen View Post
    To be clear, I at least am fine with that, since if playable Muslims/Pagans are DLCs, they'll get more attention than they would have as part of the base game.

    My main concern is the possibility that that will not be made, since it was never made for Ck1, and Johan is on record as not seeing the need for such a DLC. As I said before, hopefully the fact there's a new thread about this every other day will show that there is indeed a need in terms of customer demand.
    My main concern is how this affects modding. I hope the ability to add new playable religions is either part of the DLC or added in a patch.

  7. #107
    First Lieutenant Ionus's Avatar
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    I can see where this ends up. The Muslim players then want to attack the Hindus and the Mongols. Then someone says why cant we play the Mongols? The Mongol players want to attack China and Japan, and Japan at least if not China as well, had a feudal system so why not have an adapted CK2 original mechanism for Japan? Then someone complains they want to play the Maya......

  8. #108
    Yes, wanting to play states and characters that are already in the game inevitably leads to demands that the map be expanded.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Ionus View Post
    I can see where this ends up. The Muslim players then want to attack the Hindus and the Mongols. Then someone says why cant we play the Mongols? The Mongol players want to attack China and Japan, and Japan at least if not China as well, had a feudal system so why not have an adapted CK2 original mechanism for Japan? Then someone complains they want to play the Maya......
    This is a rather silly adaption of the slippery slope argument.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoumen View Post
    Because pagan religions are nifty, and a multireligious Europe is more interesting?

    Hell, I won't be happy until I've had a game that reconverts Persia to Zoroastrianism (which isn't in the pagan group, and kudos to Paradox for that).
    Exactly what I'm working on right now as Birjand .

    Quote Originally Posted by Comradebot View Post
    ...
    Excellent explanation of what would need to be different for a seemingly similar culture/religion! In my opinion they should do DLCs for the other faiths as well as Muslims, and by the look of things on the forum, it looks like they'd have a pretty receptive audience. I think two things I'd like to see would be unique religious symbols for all of the Pagan/Other (i.e. Zoroastrian I guess) religions, would just add a bit of feeling like you are playing as that faith, not a generic "not Christian not Muslim" religion. Secondly, I think it would be cool if powerful and pious enough leader could establish a head of their religion, although it might not have any basis in history (excepting I guess Mobadan Mobad of the Sassanid Empire), it would be rather interesting in my opinion and give a kind of goal for remaining pagan. They certainly wouldn't have the same powers as the pope, but might fill a role similar to the Orthodox Patriarch. Speaking of Orthodox, of course we shouldn't forget that the Byzantines could use some working on to make them feel, well, Byzantine. Just a thought though, but there is so much they could do with the other religions and such additions would make what is probably the best Paradox game ever made that much more special.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
    We fixed a bug that let you play as religions we didn't design to be playable? How terrible of us!
    I really don't mind that you designed the game with only Christians in mind and restricted playability accordingly, it made sense, it was what was planned from the start and it was what we all expected. I really do object to making it completely unmoddable, especially given the high moddability of pretty much every other Paradox game and the high quality communities that generally spring up as a result.
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  12. #112
    Field Marshal Olaus Petrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRooster81 View Post
    Design decisions were made, and the devs made the best game possible under those early decisions. I don't think that it's fair to blame them for not creating the game that you wanted them to. A lot of work has been put in to make the features that have been implemented work as beautifully as possible, and the first release of a new Paradox game is just establishing a beachhead. If it does well, then more territory can be covered.
    Well said. Some of the accusations here are absurd. This question has popped up occasionally since 2004, but this time there seem to be much more hostility and accusations that Paradox is simply trying to steal our cash by selling DLC. Despite the fact that Muslims were unplayable also in CK1 and it's expansion Deus Vult, so we can safely say that the focus on the series is on playing as Christian dynasty and other religions were never meant to be playable. And they haven't announced that they have any intention to make Muslims playable in the future.

    It saddens me that Paradox releases one of their best games and already the lynch mob is gathering here. (Although it's nothing new, we see the same thing with every release.)
    Last edited by Olaus Petrus; 16-02-2012 at 09:03.
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  13. #113
    CK has never been, or intended to be, an accurate political simulator.
    Finally! I'm glad some others finally see that POINT I've been making for awhile now in the France should get out of Iberia thread. Thank you thank you thank you. Now that thread can be close.

    I don't think that it's fair to blame them for not creating the game that you wanted them to.
    I agree with this ^ wholeheartedly also. All too many times I see it after every release the whiners and complainers appear whining and complaining the game isn't the way THEY wanted it. Forgetting there are thousands upon thousands of others who bought the same game an are enjoying it. But, sadly many times it's those who whine and complain the loudest on the forums who get their way eventually. Once again like that silly thread about France should not be able to invade Iberia or probably anybody for that matter. lol

    I really don't know how the devs can handle it so easily with all the whining and crying and complaining. Why if I were a dev I'd tell half of them to $%#(&#$$

  14. #114
    First Lieutenant Baleur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionus View Post
    I can see where this ends up. The Muslim players then want to attack the Hindus and the Mongols. Then someone says why cant we play the Mongols? The Mongol players want to attack China and Japan, and Japan at least if not China as well, had a feudal system so why not have an adapted CK2 original mechanism for Japan? Then someone complains they want to play the Maya......
    And what is wrong with that then?
    That would be awesome.. Why should we not always strive for more? Without ambition and progress of ideas, games would have come nowhere.

  15. #115
    On Double Secret Probation Comradebot's Avatar
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    While I consider myself a staunch supporter of the "let us play Pagans!" movement (I've always been an advocate of "the more the merrier", and feel that an already incredibly deep game could gain a vast wealth in terms of gameplay dynamics with Pagans/Muslims being playable), I don't harbor any ill feelings towards Paradox. They've created a truly wonderful game, and I've already clock nearly twenty hours of it since release day (and only one class to go to tomorrow, woohoo!)... which probably means I need to get out of my room before my social life completely dies. Also, my SWTOR guild is probably wondering where their main tank is.

    Again, it's a terrific game. And as for the hardcoding... it pains me, it makes me wanna scream, but I also fully understand it. If they left it fully open, then I guarantee you modmakers would've beat them to the punch and created fully functional mods for full Pagan/Muslim/Zoroastrian playability. If Paradox plans to release non-Christian DLC, then having a mod that already allows it (even if not of the quality of their work) would cut into their profit. They are still a business afterall. Probably won't stop me from editting a save in a bit to play as Chief Olaf Gren of the Aland Islands and try to forge my own Pagan mini-kingdom in the wilderness of Scandinavia, but I'll be grateful if/when they give us playable Muslims and Pagans without, well... cheating.

    And yes Paradox, I'll gladly pay for it. And maybe think along the lines of some of the stuff Theddude said in here: being able to have someone rise amongst the Pagan ranks and become, say, the spiritual leader of all Romuvans, would be awesome.

    Oh, and Thor's Hammer for the Norse symbol should the day come... but I guess that'd be obvious.

  16. #116
    On Double Secret Probation Comradebot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baleur View Post
    And what is wrong with that then?
    That would be awesome.. Why should we not always strive for more? Without ambition and progress of ideas, games would have come nowhere.
    It would be awesome... but there's also a point of whether or not it's realistic. Right now we don't even know if we can get everything that's on the current map up to the level of Christian Europe and fully playable. Personally, I'd be ecstatic if Paradox could get that much done. If they feel it's in the cards to expand beyond that... I won't complain, and it'd be far more than the game not only promised, but remotely hinted at. I don't see it happening... but hey, if it does it means I've probably already spread the glory of Freyr and Odin and all them zany Romuvan gods across a respectable piece of the globe.

  17. #117
    Usermod Coordinator Paradox Dev Team Captain Gars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calanctus View Post
    Yes, wanting to play states and characters that are already in the game inevitably leads to demands that the map be expanded.
    If you think that is far-fetched you could always check out the early threads in teh Sengoku forum...
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  18. #118
    Lt. General Kyoumen's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterofMagic View Post
    I agree with this ^ wholeheartedly also. All too many times I see it after every release the whiners and complainers appear whining and complaining the game isn't the way THEY wanted it. Forgetting there are thousands upon thousands of others who bought the same game an are enjoying it.
    What a peculiar viewpoint. Are you seriously arguing that because many people are happy with the game as is, those who want a particular feature/bugfix/expansion should not agitate for it? How on earth would Paradox even find out what their fanbase wants if they all did as you are seemingly suggesting and shut up about it because some other people are happy with the game as is?

    I suppose it'd be easy for Paradox if everyone just shut up and never complained about issues; they wouldn't even have to put out patches then.

  19. #119
    Usermod Coordinator Paradox Dev Team Captain Gars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoumen View Post
    Are you seriously arguing that because many people are happy with the game as is, those who want a particular feature/bugfix/expansion should not agitate for it?
    There's a difference between arguing and agitating for a change. There's also a difference between suggesting changes and saying that we removed features from the game to screw our customers.
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  20. #120
    Reichsmarschall Paradox Dev Team Darkrenown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoumen View Post
    But I won't be impressed if Johan gets his way and we never get playable Muslims.
    Why do you assume Johan is involved or is at all against adding playable Muslims?

    I know not letting you play as anyone on the map is a change from our other games (although not CK1), normally you can play as anyone in the game because it's cool to be able to do so, but this is why many nations don't feel as fleshed out in them. CK2 continues in the footsteps of CK1 and focuses on only one group of playable nations.
    Relentless madman.

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