SKy trains in air doctrines (SERB,your insults are not welcome in this thread)

[zeimer]

Lets try again, this time without trolls interrupting.

Sky train currently can be employed in the following way:

As general air in any air doctrine, in offence and defence, swapping into ground units when encountering fighters.
The sky train can participate in all air only doctrines: interdict, strabomb and runaway crater, strafing... with... infantry or field artillery if enemy deploys fighters

This luxury costs only 2 air, provided that you have some ground units to swap into, again this is optional, since not many people have 9 fighters on the table to counter continuous air threats.

There is no any other unit in the game that can be as versatile as this. The only way to beat the SKY train in air doctrine is ... well, 2 pin aa and a aoots, and pray that enemy has no other air doctrine after.

This is not only the game breaking potential, but also abuse where 2 sky trains can be sufficient for Defence against air doctrines and cannot be shut down by fighters. the funniest thing - skytrain in defence against the enemy air doctrine swaps into ... Trenches, yes you have read it right, Trenches are now deployed in the transport planes.

so here are the things to consider:
2 skytrains vs fighters - swap into ground units, and kill those pesky fighters
2 skytrains vs light bombers - dont swap
2 skytrains vs combination of bombers and fighters - swap into trenches.
2 skytrains vs heavy bombers, that can attack in the close quarters. Bombers dont know if you swap so they might or might not use their swap ability, if you bomb in battle phase, sky trains dont swap, if you dont, well, skytrains at least 1 swaps into ground unit such as priest and kills your bomber.,

Thus it is very easy to defend with sky trains against anything, and easy to attack as well. IT is way too cheap for its versatility.
Sky train is so far the best defence as general air, and one of the best offence in the air doctrines. Forget about Liberator, when you have sky trains.

Please name any other unit that is THAT good in defence against any air only doctrine. combined with its potential in offence. And please discuss here without trolling why you think that this unit should stay at its current position.

So far i offered 3 solutions for discussion:
1. increase the cost to 4 air
2. remove the ablity to swap when used as general air in air only doctrines in defence and offence.
3. clone the card to give it to the axis and commies so they could easily defend against any air doctrines.

[MeinKrieg]

Axis really needs a transport plane that is cheap to use in BLitzkrieg . Maybe its ability is "Swap in artillery phase with inf/support" and its cost 2 air . This transport plane doesn't unpin unit that it swap with . So I'm kind of in for option number 3.

[Poppis]

Ok, can Allies then get the equivalent of counterattack or human wave, so we can easily defend against a doctrine that outnumbers us like axis/comintern can at the moment?

[zeimer]

never saw counter attack in action. neither human wave.

[Poppis]

What does that have to do with anything? Allies can't easily defend an outnumbering doctrine.

[zeimer]

This topic is again, regarding sky train in air only doctrines where outnumbering is not a factor.
However i am pretty sure allies have enough cards to make up against outnumbering opponents - preemtive, smoke, 25 pounder.

[MeinKrieg]

What does that have to do with anything? Allies can't easily defend an outnumbering doctrine.

Trenches and smoke + some MGs .

[luckyb0y]

Lets try again, this time without trolls interrupting.

Sky train currently can be employed in the following way:

As general air in any air doctrine, in offence and defence, swapping into ground units when encountering fighters.
The sky train can participate in all air only doctrines: interdict, strabomb and runaway crater, strafing... with... infantry or field artillery if enemy deploys fighters

This luxury costs only 2 air, provided that you have some ground units to swap into, again this is optional, since not many people have 9 fighters on the table to counter continuous air threats.

There is no any other unit in the game that can be as versatile as this. The only way to beat the SKY train in air doctrine is ... well, 2 pin aa and a aoots, and pray that enemy has no other air doctrine after.

Wrong. It can be stopped with any cheap bombers. If he swaps to ground units they will get bombed if he doesn't you just stopped it and no one took any losses - that is not uncommon situation in ground attacks as well (see two MGs and Smoke defence)

This is not only the game breaking potential, but also abuse where 2 sky trains can be sufficient for Defence against air doctrines and cannot be shut down by fighters. the funniest thing - skytrain in defence against the enemy air doctrine swaps into ... Trenches, yes you have read it right, Trenches are now deployed in the transport planes.

so here are the things to consider:
2 skytrains vs fighters - swap into ground units, and kill those pesky fighters
2 skytrains vs light bombers - dont swap
2 skytrains vs combination of bombers and fighters - swap into trenches.
2 skytrains vs heavy bombers, that can attack in the close quarters. Bombers dont know if you swap so they might or might not use their swap ability, if you bomb in battle phase, sky trains dont swap, if you dont, well, skytrains at least 1 swaps into ground unit such as priest and kills your bomber.,

1. What ground units you need to kill them? The cheapest option is Armored Infantry (2 res so total with Skytrains - 8 res) and all you need is two 3 res (6 res total) fighter bombers so either you both take one hit or you both loose one unit. How is it not fair? Or why don't you use bombers 4 res total (Fairey + Wellington or 2x A-31). Other options (Engineers, Priests) are very expensive - 10-12 resources and Engineers are just as easy to stop as Armored Infantry. You cannot complain that you can't stop a force that costs that much with your two cheap (2 res) fighters (and even then you deal some damage as long as you are not facing Priests). What's next? Why I can't I stop Stuka/2xTiger/SS Blitz (15 res) with my cheap AA and 2 inf (3 res)?

2. Don't swap. Doctrine stopped but if you play Air deck you should have way more planes than Skytrains (5 tops and unlikely to be all deployed). If you have more planes and more air docs just play the expendable one first let him use he's Skytrains and then use the rest. Skytrains can stop 2 doctrines at most each turn.

3. Trenches get killed - no more trenches next turn. Congratulations you just stopped one attack at a considerable cost. How is it different to stopping ground attack with some cheap expendable infantry?

4. You keep mentioning insane combos like 2 Skytrains and Priests. It is powerful but you also pay through the nose so I see no reason why it should be nerfed. You can't expect cheaper force to defeat more expensive one.

I think you are neglecting a crucial aspect of the game here - resource management. Everything you mentioned will cost the Skytrain player way more than the opponent to achieve anything. If the forces are on par resource wise it will usually result in no losses on either side. I fail to see the reason why it shouldn't be that way. You need to provide specific examples that clearly show Skytrain superiority. You just point some vague examples that don't prove anything. If in my attack I use units worth 4 res tops I cannot expect to perform equally or better to much more expensive force.

[Poppis]

This topic is again, regarding sky train in air only doctrines where outnumbering is not a factor.
However i am pretty sure allies have enough cards to make up against outnumbering opponents - preemtive, smoke, 25 pounder.

Ok, your opinion is that skytrain is too cheap for what it does. One of your solutions to this problem is to give axis and commies an equivalent unit, so that they too can take advantage of this cost efficient unit and can "easily defend against any air doctrines".

So, using the same reasoning, why not give the allies a unit equivalent to counterattack/human wave?

[Walas]

I think the problem really is just that what the skytrain does makes no sense with an air doctorine. That is why is should be changed, not because its overpowered.

[zeimer]

Ok, your opinion is that skytrain is too cheap for what it does. One of your solutions to this problem is to give axis and commies an equivalent unit, so that they too can take advantage of this cost efficient unit and can "easily defend against any air doctrines".

So, using the same reasoning, why not give the allies a unit equivalent to counterattack/human wave?

I dont mind that at all, but again, neither one of those are ever used, while sky trains in air only doctrines on attack and defence are common

[MeinKrieg]

Ok, your opinion is that skytrain is too cheap for what it does. One of your solutions to this problem is to give axis and commies an equivalent unit, so that they too can take advantage of this cost efficient unit and can "easily defend against any air doctrines".

So, using the same reasoning, why not give the allies a unit equivalent to counterattack/human wave?

Ok you can have 2 of them for 1 sky-train . Hope you won't regret .

[zeimer]

I think the problem really is just that what the skytrain does makes no sense with an air doctorine. That is why is should be changed, not because its overpowered.

this is exactly my point walas, it does not make sense to put a sky train on defence against an air only doctrine, and put in on offence in air only doctrine. Yet everyone and their mums put them and use them in air only doctrines.

[Mr. Tauntaun]

Skytrain is fine. The last thing the Allies need is to have cards taken AWAY. Give us a 3 point doctrine first then we'll talk.
Defeating what you propose is very, very easy:

1 AOOTS, 1 Fighter, 1 any air. AOOTS prevents the swap. Even if he does swap, your fighter finishes it off. Use a bomber for the third and he looses the ground unit as well. Net result you loose 1 one unit, they loose two. They'll eventually run out of Skytrains.

[zeimer]

1 AOOTS, 1 Fighter, 1 any air. AOOTS prevents the swap. Even if he does swap, your fighter finishes it off. Use a bomber for the third and he looses the ground unit as well. Net result you loose 1 one unit, they loose two. They'll eventually run out of Skytrains.

well, you attack with 2 skytrains and one feed unit vs aooots , fighter, and bomber. so all in all, a feed unit gets damaged, while two skytrains swap into 1 killer and 1 trenchies, that being said, the defending side looses either aoots, fighter or bomber for the price of 1 feed unit. guess which side usually runs out of planes, allies with skytrain or the other side...

THis is ever more relevant when SKy train is put in defence, so sky trains know what you will attack at which phase, which again, confirms that the sky train is the best defence unit in air doctrine and one of the best in offence for the price of 2 air. (again, commies and axis dont have fighter bomber in battle phase but even then, the skytrains with trenchies and priests /engies win)

[Mr. Tauntaun]

They can only defend with a fighter as a third unit, not generic air (vs runway). So if they have feed units, use either 2 OOTS and 1 fighters or 2 fighters and 1 OOTS
Or, even better, use 2 Runway Craterings (like I do in many of my air decks). Odds of them being able to defend both are slim, if you are playing your cards right.

[zeimer]

2 aooets kill that feed unit and then those skytrains get 2 kills with swapped units

[Mr. Tauntaun]

Again, not a problem if you play your cards right. You need to see what's on the table and attack accordingly. If he's got 2 Skytrains out, go with 1 AAOTS, 1 Bomber, 1 Fighter. You have your bases covered. You'll take losses, but as you are aiming for air superiority (the tactic, not the card), they should be negligible. You'll still get 2 of his units. You can also use Keith Park, which lets you choose which plane to be damaged. It's very easy to circumvent for a good air deck, unless you have a bad draw going.

[luckyb0y]

@zeimer

How much resource it will be exactly? You cannot think about this completely disregarding the economy. More expensive force should defeat cheaper force most of the time. Provide me an example where Skytrains player uses less resources and comes out on top. You can't.

[luckyb0y]

double post