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Thread: Patch 2.2?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    What would you like to get fixed the most?
    - movement and revolt bugs
    - natural pop-growth, migration/assimiliation (the later implemented as option, if performance can become a problem - so strong machine users can have less assimiliation)
    - infrastructure mapmode is pretty useless in L-F (since you cant build any, it shows all provinces as maximum infra)
    - reduction of the war-justification gambit (not ranging from exorbitant infamy cost to zero based on nothing but luck- last night, i was about sooo close to ditch the game, again, just because of this. 3 times reload, everytime 9.x infamy for acquiring a state as jingo - i am just way too unlucky on average to like such an implementation - but then, on the fourth reload, i got away with zero... and i didnt do anything different - that´s just way too big a margin, way too much determined by the die-roll) - related: allow war instantly after dicovery of justification.
    - just an idea: how about WGs with negative infamy? Like ´free people´ or ´intervention´? Then you could work on infamy reduction. Be a badboy sometimes, be the good one on another occassion, to level your reputation...
    - somethings odd about the daily balance display in the mainscreen (and probably the budget screen, too), which is probably linked to buying stuff internally and then taxing for it, all during the same day, but the later not part of the daily-balance number displayed, so that it shows negative, while you are actually making money.
    - I´d like to have different rules for retreating of troops. It´s been discussed on the forums, and i dont want to go into detail about it here.
    - I heard reports, that fleets can retreat over unlimited distances to the next friendly harbor without any means to intercepting them. That ought to be fixed.
    - Naval rally points would be nice, indeed.
    - I think a ´great powers´ selection is missing for the ´interesting´ collection in the message settings. An ´all´ button could be nice, too, despite it seemingly being redundant, it really is not, when you dont want to fiddle with the message-settings from one game (playing mighty USA with global interests) to the next (playing some nation without global interests).
    - Do we need AI offering us peace-deals, anymore? I dont think so.
    - Some sort of alert, when an NF has reached 100% of what makes sense to have (e.g. maximum useable bureaucrats in a state, when the state has a bureaucrat promotion NF on it). Optimally - in the long term, not really patch-stuff, but maybe for the next expansion - there would be some sort of optional nationwide automatization, enabling you to just set it to ´promote bureucrats´ and it will use the free, not manually allocated, NFs to do just that nationwide, switching them from time to time, as the situation changes.

    Well, that´s what comes to mind, right now.

  2. #22
    Forum's #1 Irishman Demi Moderator RedRalphWiggum's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleneck View Post
    I'm surprised this hasn't already been bumrushed with the absolutely sycophantic 'IT'S READY WHEN IT'S READY' chatter.
    You're honestly better off just doing what you're doing. I think I've only ever seen 1 (2?) date announcements for beta patches and they botched it. So don't count on it until it's out. And it's actually "the one" that fixes the big issues.


    In any case, I'm waiting on AHD to leave its unofficial beta before buying it, like you.
    Don't get me wrong, it all sounds fun and all, but the devil's in the details. Looking forward to playing the game.
    There was no need whatsoever to pre-emptively call people sycophants here, don't do it in future please.

  3. #23
    Reichsmarschall Paradox Dev Team Darkrenown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazumir View Post
    - reduction of the war-justification gambit (not ranging from exorbitant infamy cost to zero based on nothing but luck- last night, i was about sooo close to ditch the game, again, just because of this. 3 times reload, everytime 9.x infamy for acquiring a state as jingo - i am just way too unlucky on average to like such an implementation - but then, on the fourth reload, i got away with zero... and i didnt do anything different - that´s just way too big a margin, way too much determined by the die-roll) - related: allow war instantly after dicovery of justification.
    Some of your other points are valid, some I disagree with, but I strongly disagree with this one. If you can't afford the loss, don't take the risk, and if you're just going to reload until you get a good result you might as well just use cheat codes/events. If you just accepted the bad and good results as they came you'd find they average out, it's only because you discard the bad results and keep only the perfect rolls it seems like such a large difference.
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  4. #24
    That´s not entirely true, Darkrenown. I did not construct the example above of 3x times in a row having really bad rolls and then one with gave no infamy at all. I dont pick the extremely good ones, so that the harsh ones seem out of whack, it´s more vice versa: If i get detected with a jingo party during the first month three times in a row (now, without reloading) there is a point where i am going to have had it, with bad luck constantly ruining the plans. If i then reload, because the third time in a row of getting 90-95% of max infamy despite being jingo, has finally pushed me over the limit, against all odds, and then get a completely free ride for doing nothing different, i could as well go to Vegas. This is just too much of roulette.

    I daresay, the ´post your empire´ thread entries will be totally dependant on that luck, from now on. Even if noone goes beyond the limit, the possible advantage from luck alone is beyond reasonable in a competive environment, imho.

    Based on how it´s done right now, i´d change to the following (taking vanilla V2 infamy penalties as base):

    - Jingo: infamy range from 120% to 40% (so from 9.6 to 3.2 for acquiring a state), very fast justifying rate, as is
    - Pro-Military: infamy range from 130% to 30% (10.4 to 2.4 for acquiring a state), fast justifying rate, as is
    - Anti-Military: infamy range from 140% to 20% (11.2 to 1.6) slow justifying rate, as is
    - Pacifist: infamy range from 150% to 10% (12 to 0.8) very slow, as is
    with justification turning into CBs upon discovery.

    So, this way, when i run jingo and do get exposed very quickly, i can still think ´ahh, it would have been worse, if i was pacifist, at least...´ and dont get my advantage completely nullified due to bad luck. OTOH, if a make it to 100% justification, i might think ´ah crap, if only i had been pacifist - i might have been able to push it even further...´. Luck is still important (and still borderline too important, imho), but my choices matter, no matter what the luck is.

    EDIT: The reasoning is, that jingo-governments may be expected to draft claims, so no-one is overly indignated if they find a jingo-gov doing it. Still, even if a war is completely justified, if it is conducted by a jingo-nation, it can´t get entirely rid off that imperialism-smell. On the other hand, pacifist governments are not expected to draft claims, and if they are caught doing so anyways, everyone will be talking about the preacher preaching water and drinking wine. But if a pacifist gov manages to justify its claim, then other countries might be more inclined to say ´oh well, if even those peacenicks think there is a good reason to go to war, then there probably really is a good reason to go to war...´. Hence the range widens from jingo to pacifism.
    Both extremes have sort of a trade-off too, then, as you could get less infamy with your pacifist gov, when compared to a jingo one, if you are willing to take the risk and are lucky, while jingo is the saver way to less infamy, if you feel unlucky.

    EDIT2: The difference suggested above isnt huge, either. Just enough to actually make a difference and make military policy matter (regarding this), regardless of luck (because as is, it doesnt, if you are unlucky).

    EDIT3: Makes wargoals without justification cheaper for jingos, more expensive for pacifists, too. Make sense, imho.
    Last edited by Jazumir; 08-02-2012 at 14:05.

  5. #25
    I just want the checksum thing to be fixed, its been a thorn in our collective side for to long now.

    If I'm going to be nit-picky though the only other thing is that in AHD the guy said that rebels would be born of movements before becoming rebels, but we still get Jacobins and anarcho-liberals who just skip that and come into existing anyway. Though it doesn't bother me to much seeing as they never seem to revolt but I mean come on, who becomes militant without a reason! Half the time they don't even seem to be attached to a movement and when they are its normally a movement that makes no sense for them (Pro-slavery league much), just dump the Jacobins back in the 60 years past French revolution where they get their name and give the anarchists a movement! =P Heck, anarchy isn't even a ideology in the game! One time I saw anarchists pull down democratic Austro-Hungary and re-install the monarchy. These men need a reason to exist! throw them a bone!

    Last edited by 3dmadness; 08-02-2012 at 14:07.

  6. #26
    Paradox Code Kitteh Paradox Dev Team podcat's Avatar
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    I don't want to promise anything because you never know what could happen, but my idea is that 2.2 shouldnt take long, and focus on the main problems with some small nice stuff we have come up with. any bigger and long term stuff is for 2.3. Expect a dev diary on friday to showcase some of the stuff we have done and probably a rough release date (it will be public beta patch first before becoming proper patch the way we usually do it). Early next week isnt impossible, but its not a promise :P
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  7. #27
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
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    The whole jingoist-pacifist thing is enough abstraction as it is. IMO either there´s reason for war or there isn´t, how militarist the ruling party is should affect more internal opinion than external. You could say that Germany previously to world war 2 was EXTREMELY jingoistic - does that mean they could declare lots of wars and still be loved by everyone? No, it only meant less internal opposition.

    What I actually miss is a Create Core spy mission like EU III did. That would change many things in the game.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by podcat View Post
    I don't want to promise anything because you never know what could happen, but my idea is that 2.2 shouldnt take long, and focus on the main problems with some small nice stuff we have come up with. any bigger and long term stuff is for 2.3. Expect a dev diary on friday to showcase some of the stuff we have done and probably a rough release date (it will be public beta patch first before becoming proper patch the way we usually do it). Early next week isnt impossible, but its not a promise :P
    Sounds good, I suppose we should start new games with the patch?
    "A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn." - Warhammer
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  9. #29
    True, Beagá. That´s why the original idea (i´ll just assume, that i know where it came from) was to have the party determine for how many claims you could go at any time. Ah... what the heck, here it is (but i see, that this couldnt be done in a patch for AHD, anymore, even if PI wanted to):


    This is post is to give a compiled and reworked overview over the ´claim-and-crisis-system´ i suggested in this thread, earlier. Let me start by explaining the two new terms first:

    Claims: A claim is what a nation publicly wants, but doesnt have, yet. Each claim has a corresponding war-goal. Making a claim reduces the penalties incured by the corresponding war-goal, the more, the older the claim is. The age of a claim is, along with its target, its defining property, giving it its strength. So, it doesnt help you to make a claim on jan, 1st, and making it a war goal on feb,1 – a one-month old claim does close to nothing at all. Claims can be revoked at any time, but this resets its time-counter to zero (re-adding it will make you start over on it). Fullfilling a claim decreases revanchism (people going toward jingo), revoking it raises it – amount of both depending on the age of the claim.

    The number of claims a nation can have at any one time depends on two things: number of national foci and militancy of the party in power. National foci can be used to produce claims freely. A jingoistic government gives you three additional ´claim-slots´, a pro-militaristic two, a anti-militaristic one, and a pacifistic none. If a nation has less or more claims than its government adds as a bonus, it will raise discontent among the corresponding people (for pacifists, if you have more claims than party gives as bonus, for example). If a nation looses a claim-slot, due to elections bringing a less militant party to power, the youngest claim gets auto-revoked.

    Claims play a central role in the diplomacy of the game: If someone has a claim on you, it will reduce your relations with that nation (-2 per month). If you and someone else have a different claim on the same third nation, that third nation will be regarded as your common enemy by the AI, and thus an alliance among you two encouraged. If you share the same claim with another nation, the later does not happen, and the relation among you two gets a -1 hit each month.

    Now, the older a claim gets, the more of a threat it poses, as simply upholding the claim will reduce the cost of first war-exhaustion (raised massively from vanilla by default for claimless war-goals) and then infamy for making it a war goal. If an AI-nation gets threatend this way, it may react in different ways, depending on its relative strength and diplomatic situation (as well as the age of the claim – the older the more urgent it appears to deal with it):
    If regarding itself as being out-powered by the claimant, it will first try to search for allies, failing that it will try to get to +200 relations with the claimant in order to be able to ask for revokation of the claim – see below
    If regarding itself as being about as strong as the claimant, it will prepare for a war with it, including search for possible allies
    If regarding itself as stronger as the claimant, it will tend to add claims on that nation itself, spuring tensions among the two

    Asking to revoke a claim requires +200 relations. Bringing up relation requires sacrifice of some sort. You can pay money to the nation you want to improve your relation with, for example – but the recipient can always reject such presents. No more hit a button for free in intervals to get it (no more diplo-points at all, actually). A human player will have to always accept to revoke a claim for an AI-nation, if it reaches +200, so he/she might want to reject presents that make it reach that number. Remember, that the claim reduces relations monthly, though, and thus a constant tribute can be expected and accepted from an outpowered, ally-less target of a claim. An AI-nation may reject a request for claim-revokation, though, be it by a human or another AI-nation. Another way to have a claim revoked is by adding that as a war-goal – it should be (almost) free by default and not be avaiable as a claim. Revoked claims can be re-started a-new immediately, but, as said, its age (and thus its value) will be zero. The AI needs to take the age of the claim into account when deciding the urgency to counter it.

    A good logic, supplemented if needed by some nation-specific AI-scripts, should make the AI-nations pick reasonable claims. The grand campaign can have some claims for some nations with some age attached to them from the get-go (hegemony for austria, for example). AI-nation would rarely use N.F.s for claims and rarely declare an aggressive war without a claim.

    This set of mechanics clear the way to the abolishment of the SOI-system as we know it: If an AI-nation feels outpowered by a (sole) claimant and fails to find an ally against it, it will do everything trying to have that claim revoked. First it will throw money at you. If you keep it from getting to +200 relations for long enough, and your claim has grown strong enough, the AI-minor will ask for sphering, and if accepted gets to keep what you had a claim on (→ auto-revokation of claim, but without effect on the major´s revanchism). There is no reason to limit this to the grand powers, either – everyone could sphere (or get sphered), theoretically. If two or more stronger nations hold a claim on a minor, the minor wont react to this at all... but hope that they´ll get into each others way, eventually. Make yourself the sole threat to a minor, in order to sphere it (e.g. project your power)!


    Crisis: This is a prelude to war, giving all involved nations the chance to make a statement on how they are gonna act in an upcoming war, before it actually breaks out (or is prevented). When a nation decides that it wants to use force now to get something, it will make a demand (= the first war-goal, if war does break out) on the target nation, resulting in the start of the crisis. Now, all the allies of the aggressor and the ´defender´ get to make a statement during the next week, wether they will stand up to their commitment or not. As this is not their final word on this, yet, and refusing incures a prestige-hit, they should be more inclined to stand up for it (when compared to vanilla).
    Based on these statements, the aggressor decides, within another 7 days, wether he wants to follow through and actually declare war, or not. Backing off costs prestige. He can dissolve freely the alliance with any ally that refused to back him and inpose an additional prestige hit on such nations, now (for, say a year). If war is declared, all allies loose one point of presige for each day they do not join on the side they vowed they would join on. Any war-goal picked by an ally already is unavaiable to all other allies for this war. If a none-attacking nation has a claim on a war-goal set by one of the attackers, it is more likely to intervene on the defenders side.
    A starting crises alets everyone involved to consider mobilisation.


    Pros:
    Diplomacy much more transparent as you can see what the AI-nations want, now – much less surprise attacks, penalizing willy-nilly opportunistic land-grabs without long standing claims.
    No need for generic, semi-random CB-events anymore – make your own (sort of) via the claims!
    No more staring at abstract numbers increase in the SOI-system. Project power to get spheres (fleet for oversea-expansion), instead! Less micro.
    Less pointless wars (provided a good claim-picking logic/scripts) and less chickening out of alliances
    Get more for your infamy with careful laying out of claims long before going to war about them and waiting for the right moment to push them.
    Prestige is capital, allowing you to do ´cunning´ things, if you can afford it (like wait to join a war with an ally).
    Deals among human players via presents and claims possible to a limited extent again, without exploitability of the AI (unequal conditions for revokation of claims: you cant deny at +200, the AI can)
    Hopefully, we will see some block-forming due to claims and counter-claims and alliances spured by them
    C.B.s that were introduced in vanilla to steer things into the ´right direction´ can be replaced by high likelyhoods for AI-nations to make the corresponding state subject of a claim (elsass-lorraine, for example).
    Threatend, helpless minors pay ´tribute´, if they cant find any allies (to get to +200 relation, in order to be able to ask for claim-revokation) even before they offer to be sphered.
    Big minors (read: china) cant be intimidated into sphering for a single state claimed, esp. not when multiple nations put claims on it – it is likely to be broken into sphere´s of interest (russia puts a claim in the north, UK in the south, others on the coast....). Putting more than one claim on china represents some major commitment for any nation, as you can only have so many claims at any one time.

    Cons:
    requires some work on the AI as well as on the diplo-interface and the main-screen (no more diplo-points, influence and influence-priorities, but claims) – crisis mechanic requires some new pop-ups, new outliner-feature of 1.2 can go again...
    others i didnt think of and you will tell us about... (possible exploits?)

    Questions, objections, critique?


    But i guess, AHD must be the base for any chance and for a patch, and what i suggested above, in my previous post, might already go beyond patch-material.

  10. #30
    Reichsmarschall Paradox Dev Team Darkrenown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagá View Post
    What I actually miss is a Create Core spy mission like EU III did. That would change many things in the game.
    The create core mission that was removed because it was unbalanced? No, let's not have that. Besides, no spies.
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  11. #31
    Paradox Code Kitteh Paradox Dev Team podcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xGhost4000x View Post
    Sounds good, I suppose we should start new games with the patch?
    always recommended, but I dont think we have broken savegames though in any way so far.
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  12. #32
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
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    Hehe well not creating cores anywhere; more like creating cores on locations with accepted pops or religion (in case the party was moralist; obviously that would imply much less moralist parties). Dunno, I´m just suggesting the whole wars system could use some changes, the point is, where.

  13. #33
    The military score of my country (NFG) gets negative, if I build massive units and the military science is on top in 1866. How can that be? That must be fixed I think.

  14. #34
    Forum's #1 Irishman Demi Moderator RedRalphWiggum's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotmob View Post
    The military score of my country (NFG) gets negative, if I build massive units and the military science is on top in 1866. How can that be? That must be fixed I think.
    It's a bug, and has already been reported

  15. #35
    Paradox Code Kitteh Paradox Dev Team podcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotmob View Post
    The military score of my country (NFG) gets negative, if I build massive units and the military science is on top in 1866. How can that be? That must be fixed I think.
    yeah a bug. fixed it the other day for 2.2. it happens often if you are at peace and playing on easy difficulty with some supply techs
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  16. #36

  17. #37
    Good to see that naval rally points are making it into AHD.


    Can't wait. Hoping for a Monday patch release, but I realize paradox can't commit to anything, especially since they are busy working on the release of CK2 and dealing with the unruly crowd of forumites on that board.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
    It will be.
    That's a relief. Thank you very much.

  19. #39
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    My main concerns. If a Dark or podcat would comment on if they are handled in 2.2 I would be happy pappy
    1. Upper house support for movements being canceled by militancy.
    2. Super high colonial migration leaving core states almost empty.
    3. Claimed colonies containing 90% soldier pops.

    I still love the economic game in AHD even with these problems. Great job.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by podcat View Post
    I don't want to promise anything because you never know what could happen, but my idea is that 2.2 shouldnt take long, and focus on the main problems with some small nice stuff we have come up with. any bigger and long term stuff is for 2.3. Expect a dev diary on friday to showcase some of the stuff we have done and probably a rough release date (it will be public beta patch first before becoming proper patch the way we usually do it). Early next week isnt impossible, but its not a promise :P
    Wonderful. :-)
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