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Foxbyte

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Nov 11, 2007
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I'm wondering why I, a democratic nation with almost zero infamy and every single political/social reform in the Americas [with plenty of agriculture and industrial jobs available], is being looked over in favour of European monarchies that are far more strict on citizenship laws and poor levels of reforms.

Sweden and Austria-Hungary are getting 6000-plus immigration waves while I'm getting about 50 people, Argentina is a dictatorship and they get 800 or so a month. Even the USA is getting ignored.

Were the immigration mechanics tweaked in AHD a lot?
 
Really? That sounds bizarre, it's almost entirely the opposite in my experience, which is Europeans fleeing the old continent in droves
 
Really? That sounds bizarre, it's almost entirely the opposite in my experience, which is Europeans fleeing the old continent in droves

I'm starting to think that recent wars will drastically effect immigration; the last ten years of my game have been pretty peaceful, and now immigration has shifted to mostly me, with New England and California getting about 50% of the immigration pie combined.

And Switzerland is getting a lot too, despite its Residency party.

Oh and the Congo is getting a good amount too.

And as I finish typing this, now it's all shifted to Deseret. What the heck.
 
I'm wondering why I, a democratic nation with almost zero infamy and every single political/social reform in the Americas [with plenty of agriculture and industrial jobs available], is being looked over in favour of European monarchies that are far more strict on citizenship laws and poor levels of reforms.

Sweden and Austria-Hungary are getting 6000-plus immigration waves while I'm getting about 50 people, Argentina is a dictatorship and they get 800 or so a month. Even the USA is getting ignored.

Were the immigration mechanics tweaked in AHD a lot?

The fact that you have every political/social reform makes me wonder... Is it possible to have "too many" reforms? For example, if an emmigrant supports Trinket Health Care and your country has Good Health Care, would the pop be less likely to emmigrate to you?
 
It seems AHD has influenced the immigration quite abit since I've seen POP immigrate to CSA more than US and I played as Germany. This has never happends before, like they change alot. but it once agian hard to pinpoint what causes them to go to CSA more than US:
 
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The fact that you have every political/social reform makes me wonder... Is it possible to have "too many" reforms? For example, if an emmigrant supports Trinket Health Care and your country has Good Health Care, would the pop be less likely to emmigrate to you?

I'd hope their train of thought would be 'I want trinket healthcare, this nation has good healthcare; therefore they have trinket healthcare' but you never know.
 
I'd hope their train of thought would be 'I want trinket healthcare, this nation has good healthcare; therefore they have trinket healthcare' but you never know.

You would think, but I'm not so sure. Too many times I've seen countries with all sorts of reforms getting 0 migrants, or even emigration. It would be nice to get confirmation from somebody with insight.
 
I've been trying (and failing) to work out immigration mechanics since the initial release! There are clearly many more contributing factors than those listed in in the pop files.

Do you have any factories? It seems having a strong industry, or possibly a strong economy, helps. Gold also helps, even after the 'gold rush' bonus has expired - so maybe there is an attraction towards rich RGOs also (or maybe just because having gold gives you a strong economy.)
 
I'm getting vast amounts of immigrants from British India going to British Australia, British Canada, British South Africa, etc. The vast amount of different Indian ethnic groups and religions are causing a lot of trouble in my colonies. I wish there was some way to stop it.
 
Migration works as follows:

A POP is sat in Germany or wherever.
He rolls on the internal migration table, and decides how many of his POP will migrate internally.
He then rolls on the colonial migration table, and decides how many POPs will migrate to the colonies.
He then rolls on the External migration table, and determines how many POPs will leave the country.

Those internal migrating POPs will now roll on the POP's specific migration target table for each non-colonial province that the country owns. There is a weight table involved here, so even if one province is much more enticing than another, there is a chance they will pick the worse one - but they're much, much more likely to pick the nice one.

The colonial migrating POPs will roll on the same targetting table, but will only compare colonial provinces. Again, it's a weight table, so some colonies might get picked despite very low chances. Other than that, it's completely identical.

Finally, we have the external migrators. They first roll on the country_migration_target table in their specific pop file, and compare all the different potential countries they can migrate to. It's another random weight table, so even though the USA has a massive advantage (about 75% or so of migrators will pick the USA), there is a chance for some to go elsewhere.
Having picked a country, they then roll on the same migration targetting table as the other migrators, in order to determine which province in the new nation they want to go to.

Does that clear things up a little?
 
Not exactly, as people are migrating from colony to colony and causing unrest. When Canadian and Austrian provinces in the UK start to become dominated by Indians with their many different ethnicities and religions, I get so much militancy and consciousness from generic events.
 
So only pops who decides no to migrate to colonies and internally WILL try to go externally?

Also, is the CON effect on migration correct? I´m not 100% sure I agree with the CON factors in AHD. Or maybe CON is being acquired too fast, that could explain why so much Indian migration going on. Also, shouldn´t cash also play a role? No money, no overseas travel.
 
Migration works as follows:

...

That helps, but I'm still uncertain about what affects the weighting on 'country_migration_target'. The raws says that being in America and being a democracy helps, and the game suggests that political and social reforms help, but there seems to be more to it than this. Does setting an 'attract immigrants' national focus improve the weighting for country migration, or only internal/colonial? Does RGO value and industrial strength help? What about prestige, or country ranking?

Chille tends to get a lot of immigrants at the start - is this because it has gold, or because its a democracy with some political reforms?
 
So only pops who decides no to migrate to colonies and internally WILL try to go externally?

Nope, there is no forced relationship whatsoever between the three types of migration. A POP won't think 'I'm not going to migrate internally this week, so I'll have more people migrate to the colonies'. It's three entirely separate processes.

Also, is the CON effect on migration correct? I´m not 100% sure I agree with the CON factors in AHD. Or maybe CON is being acquired too fast, that could explain why so much Indian migration going on. Also, shouldn´t cash also play a role? No money, no overseas travel.

It's 'correct' in that what is reported in game is the values in poptypes.txt. It's not 'correct' in that those values give the right amount of impact on migration, which is part of the reason the Devs have changed migration in the forthcoming patch (see DD15).

That helps, but I'm still uncertain about what affects the weighting on 'country_migration_target'. The raws says that being in America and being a democracy helps, and the game suggests that political and social reforms help, but there seems to be more to it than this. Does setting an 'attract immigrants' national focus improve the weighting for country migration, or only internal/colonial? Does RGO value and industrial strength help? What about prestige, or country ranking?

Chille tends to get a lot of immigrants at the start - is this because it has gold, or because its a democracy with some political reforms?

'Attact immigrants' does nothing to influence country_migration_target. So you could have 5 of the things active in your country, but it will still only effect the province targets, rather than the country choice. It's an internal thing, as is most designed so that the USA can migrate people west quickly if it wants to, I imagine.

Chile's immigration is entirely based on it being a democracy, and nothing whatsoever to do with having gold - the gold mines will attract people who are already in Chile, or are already going to Chile anyway, but have no effect on country_migration_target.

Let's put together an example and run through it. This is the Craftsman country table:

Code:
country_migration_target =
{
	factor = 1
	modifier = {
		factor = 0
		NOT = {
			work_available = {
				worker = craftsmen 
			}
		}
	}

	modifier = {
		factor = 0.1
		unemployment = 0.1
	}
	modifier = {
		factor = 2.0
		has_pop_culture = THIS
	}
	modifier = {
		factor = 1.05
		government = democracy
	}
	modifier = {
		factor = 4.0
		OR = { 
			continent = north_america
			continent = south_america
		}
	}
	
}

All values are mulitpliers, rather than additive. Let's assume that all nations start with a weighted value of 1.

So, the first value checks if a nation has work available for craftsmen - note that this does NOT mean it checks if all the factories are full, merely that it checks that there are factories at all. If not, craftsmen simply won't go there, the nation will have a 0 weight on the weight table and so it will be impossible for it to win the targetting roll. All nations with no factories are therefore basically off the weight table now.

The next value checks if the nation has 10% unemployment or greater. If so, it reduces the weight value by 90%. Let's say that Equador is unfortunate enough to have 10% unemployment, while the USA has only 4%. So now Equador has a weight of 0.1, and the USA has a weight of 1.

The next value checks if there's already this POP's culture present. This is mostly for performance reasons, I'd guess. Let's pretend that Equador has the culture, but the USA does not; so the USA's avlue remains at 1, but Equador's is doubled - so, with it's unemployment, it now has a weighted value of 0.2.

Then there's a democracy check. This is only a 5% bonus, but for the sake of argument we'll say Equador has fallen into Tyrany and the USA has not. USA weight = 1.05, Equador is still on 0.2.

Finally, the Americas check has a massive 400% weight bonus. Both nations are in the Americas, so now the USA has a weighted value of 4.2, and Equador has a value of 0.8.

The game works out this table, and then does a random roll, which in this case means that about 85% of craftsmen emmigrating will go to the USA, and about 15% will pick Equador. This isn't exact - it's a random roll, so sometimes 20% might go to Equador, sometimes 10%; on very rare occasions 100% may pick Equador. But over time, the average number of craftsmen of this culture picking each nation will be 15% Equador, 85% USA.

Now, if Equador suddenly manages to pull unemployment down below 10%, it will shoot up to having a weight of 8 - twice that of the USA. Now, on average 60% of migrants of this poptype and culture will pick Equador.



I should probably c&p some of this stuff over onto the wiki.
 
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When you say unemployment, does that mean country's average unemployment or one pop's unemployment being over 10%? If so, where do I check country's overall unemployment ?
 
When you say unemployment, does that mean country's average unemployment or one pop's unemployment being over 10%? If so, where do I check country's overall unemployment ?

Country's overall unemployment. I don't think you can actually check overall employment anywhere on the interface; might be an idea for a suggestion there, tbh.
 
The next value checks if there's already this POP's culture present. This is mostly for performance reasons, I'd guess. Let's pretend that Equador has the culture, but the USA does not; so the USA's avlue remains at 1, but Equador's is doubled - so, with it's unemployment, it now has a weighted value of 0.2.
How many people of that culture need to be there to be considered "present"? Does a single POP of 100 people qualify? I think it may be (or at least mean to be) the mechanic to draw Jew people to Isreal, that is, to check if that culture is target country's primary or accepted culture.

Second, does "global_immigrant_attract", such as those given by reforms, affect country attract weight? If it does, how?
Third, in game, only a handful countries (mostly American ones, plus a few democracies) recieve external immigrants. Why? Especially why European democracies recieve external immigrants and non-democracies not, while their attract weights are only of 5% different?
 
How many people of that culture need to be there to be considered "present"? Does a single POP of 100 people qualify? I think it may be (or at least mean to be) the mechanic to draw Jew people to Isreal, that is, to check if that culture is target country's primary or accepted culture.

Any pop of that culture, I believe (not 100% sure tho). And it's likely to be for performance, given that it 'clumps' POPs and so reduces the overhead on the processor. That's certainly what I use the line for in PDM.

Second, does "global_immigrant_attract", such as those given by reforms, affect country attract weight? If it does, how?

Global immigrant attract is a bit of an odd duck. We think it's supposed to increase country attraction, but it's hard to tell if it's working (and early testing seems to indicate it doesn't) as the interface is very opaque on migration targetting; there's nowhere where it's shown. The new migration map may help to determine this, but atm it's basically uncharted territory.

Third, in game, only a handful countries (mostly American ones, plus a few democracies) recieve external immigrants. Why? Especially why European democracies recieve external immigrants and non-democracies not, while their attract weights are only of 5% different?

Mostly becaue the American nations have overwhelming superiority on the weight table. As the table is multiplicative, every single positive factor an American nation has is four times that of the others. For example, let's work out Germany's attractiveness for immigrants, using the same table above.

starts as 1. We'll assume everything is favourable, so it has some of the culture already there, and no unemplyment.

The maximum Germany can get (through being a democracy) is 2.1; 1*2(for having the culture)*1.05 (for being democratic).

So, even though it hasn't got the culture, the USA has literally double Germany's chance of receiving the migrant. If Equador sorts out it's unemployment problem, it has 4 times the chance (even while in Tyranny).

This means that most European countries are competing with all the American nations, all of which have vastly greater chances of receiving the migrants. To illustrate, let's pretend that every other country in the world has been annexed by our three nations.

The USA has 4.2, Germany has 2.1, and Equador has 8. The total size of the weight table is 14.3. So just over half the migrants will go to Equador, about a third will go to the USA, and a mere 1 in 7 will pick Germany.

Now we can extrapolate from this. With maybe 20 countries in the Americas, each with a chance between 4 and 8, the weight table is completely dominated by them. We'll say they each get 8 just for the sake of argument here, so America's total presence on the table is 160. Your European democracy, with no unemployment, loaded full of the correct culture, has a weight of 2.1. So for every 160 people the Americas receive, your nation gets... 2.

And that's only if chance smiles upon you, of course, as this is a probability.
 
Checking the pops' files, it does seem to be simple. But whenever I get to play, the immigration targeting seem to be the quite random.

In most (if not all) my games, random countries were getting huge amount of immigrants, like american dictatorships getting much more immigrants than democracies (surpassing the USA quite often) and so on.

And it seems that there are some sort of "immigrant waves", like what happened some month would carry on to the next. If I check for some months in a row who's getting immigrants, it'll be more or less the same. Then if I check it in 5 years, it'll be a different pattern that repeats itself it seems.

But the weirdest thing happened in 2 of my last games.
First I tried playing as Transvaal. Well, I was already in the begging of the 1870's and didn't get any immigrants at all. And I enacted all political reforms pretty early and even some social. And yet not a living soul came to my lands.

Then I tought about playing as South Africa, maybe I'd get more luck.
Well, I think at about 30 people came to me once (don't know when, just found a bunch of polish and other people in some provinces).
But then, in the 1960's, as I was about to conquer Transvaal, they just started out of nowhere receiving HUGE amounts of people.
They didn't have any reforms, there was no reason to go there. And yet they were the country wich was receiving more people, more than any american one.
I don't know how long it'd last, because I conquered them, but in the one year or so when it happened, it was so much that the state (I checked after I conquered them) had something like 16% russians and 6% polish and lots of other people.