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Thread: how I envision VIII

  1. #21
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eichenthal View Post
    if two 1 state nations occupy each other? Worth a try....
    Unfortunately, this is really hard to do(unless you get MA from a 3rd nation). In addition, the A^prefers liberating its own provinces to capturing yours, so you'd have to try it in multiplayer. Try a Zulu-Oraje war: that allows for some maneuvering.

  2. #22
    I tried it with Zulu, Oranje, Transvaal with tag-switches.

    ai-player, civilized-unciv, mil-score and overall score do not matter, nor, who totally occutied the other one first.

    As long as only one totally occupies the other, he gets 100 WS. If they both totally occupy each other, the defender gets 100% WS.
    what an economist imagines VIII like : The vision

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  3. #23
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eichenthal View Post
    I tried it with Zulu, Oranje, Transvaal with tag-switches.

    ai-player, civilized-unciv, mil-score and overall score do not matter, nor, who totally occutied the other one first.

    As long as only one totally occupies the other, he gets 100 WS. If they both totally occupy each other, the defender gets 100% WS.
    Makes sense actually. Like a more extreme version of a "draw"

  4. #24
    East vs West developer kunadam's Avatar
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    If I may highjack the tread and reflect on the OP's document:

    The micro subdivision of the land is (all this is IMHO) unnecessary. If district are also map features that units can enter, and this we have a gazillion of possible route from A to B, then the AI won't be able to wage war as was a problem in HoI3. Also, from the text it seem the only effect the additional layers have is to model sprawling urban settlements. However, I do not think this is an issue for the era. Thus, even if the province has a big metropolis, it still have enough land to house an agricultural RGO. If you really feel like the houses take up too much space, then RGO size can have a mallus based on pop. density.

    Regional or country level pops. It is already implemented for bureaucrats, and some mods implement is for soldiers as well (so that small soldier populations merge).

    Barracks and naval harbours. Way too much complexity, also something that was not typical of the era (at least for barracks). Armies can set up camps nearly everywhere, and institutionalized academies were something that has been developed in the era.

    Research: I love TTs, but maybe they do not fit the era. The idea of not having minimum dates is a laudable one, however many of the implementations has a common problem: the system should not allow the rushing of the ubertech. In Vicky this is most probably armor, or some army tech that allows a great edge in war.
    Also the 50 country having the tech is a strange requirement. As the era unfolds there are fewer and fewer countries.
    Did research facilities already existed?

    Clergy and clerks are misnamed in Vicky. By their effect clergy is the intelligentsia (teachers, priests, poets and their ilk) and clerks are the engineers. Bureaucrat are policeman, administrators, judges and medics, the civil sector.

    The claim/core system is too arbitrary. Feuds over land, especially after the invention of nationalism (exactly this era), span generations and not mere 6 years. Think about the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Countries sprung up, that never ever existed (or existed for a very limited time), but whose ethnicity saw themselves as a nation.

    Pops
    Why would a poor strata pop having luxury needs met a lower pop.growth? This is a XX.c phenomena not a XIX.c one. On the contrary they should have a higher growth rate.

    Economy
    Could you give a more detailed explanation of how the economy would work. How supply and demand determined the price of luxury cloths? is there a base price which is modulated by the market?
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  5. #25
    Before factoring in things like transport costs I'd like to see some mechanism for establishing comparative advantage (e.g. exchange rates) and some sort of demand curve flexibility (e.g. consumer substitution). Changes like these would give the economy some of that "invisible hand" natural correction that it currently lacks.
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  6. #26
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    Before factoring in things like transport costs I'd like to see some mechanism for establishing comparative advantage (e.g. exchange rates) and some sort of demand curve flexibility (e.g. consumer substitution). Changes like these would give the economy some of that "invisible hand" natural correction that it currently lacks.
    Comparative advantage is possible without different currencies, is it not?

  7. #27
    Yes it is. That's why I used "e.g." not "i.e."
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  8. #28
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    Yes it is. That's why I used "e.g." not "i.e."
    But do exchange rates in and of themselves establish comparative advantage? If they follow PPP, it seems that the good would cost the same everywhere, which would be against comparative advantage(if my econ knowledge serves me)

  9. #29
    While you would price asymmetry to be necessary I think that it can work with just profit assymmetry.

    Suppose there are two factories, fabric and cars. Both are unprofitable for mexico to build. But fabric is unprofitable by a lesser margin. Since mexico isn't exporting either, the exchange rate correction makes both factories more profitable. This bumps mexico into profitable territory for fabric exports but not cars.

    That's my theory anyway, I don't have anything formal to prove it would work.
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  10. #30
    dear kunadam, thank you so much reading and commenting!

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    If district are also map features that units can enter, and this we have a gazillion of possible route from A to B, then the AI won't be able to wage war as was a problem in HoI3.
    hope computers can cope when the time comes

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    Also, from the text it seem the only effect the additional layers have is to model sprawling urban settlements. However, I do not think this is an issue for the era.
    Ruhrboom( " Cities that in the early 19th century counted 2,0005,000 inhabitants, grew in the following 100 years to over 100,000." source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr#Industrial_Revolution) ? Colonial settlements? New York ? (inhabitants: 1. Juni 1830 252.666, 1. April 1940 7.454.995, source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yor...nerentwicklung)

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    the system should not allow the rushing of the ubertech.
    not really a problem if initial research takes VERY long and the requirements are not only succressive but linking to other trees as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    Did research facilities already existed?
    if universities and academies with a very narrow field of research count as such, the answer is yes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia...my_of_Sciences

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    The claim/core system is too arbitrary. Feuds over land, especially after the invention of nationalism (exactly this era), span generations and not mere 6 years. Think about the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Countries sprung up, that never ever existed (or existed for a very limited time), but whose ethnicity saw themselves as a nation.
    That is why I would link core gain/losing on the local POP majorities nationality

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    Why would a poor strata pop having luxury needs met a lower pop.growth? This is a XX.c phenomena not a XIX.c one. On the contrary they should have a higher growth rate.
    This is true if they are on the brink of starving only. History teaches us that poor peope tend to get (much) more children (to let them work, to have s.o. caring for you in old age etc....)
    Wealthier people reproduce less. One might argue why but the fact is undenyable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kunadam View Post
    Could you give a more detailed explanation of how the economy would work. How supply and demand determined the price of luxury cloths? is there a base price which is modulated by the market?
    Basically I would favour a totally free regional price. Balancing might be quite hard to pull off, but with extended goods range and multipe production paths for mosts high-end goods like in APD should be quite possible.

    A trading day in merchant x's life (only regarding Luxury clothes (abrevated:LC), but he will do so for every good):
    Imagine regional merchant x in regional center y supplying his counties population. He will buy ALL goods produced in his city by artsans and factories at the last days price. Then he will compare the stocked amount of LC (minus his "emergency stock") to the last days amount of demand. If the latter exeeds the former, he will look at the LC price on markes in his regions provincial centers and bordering regions and will demand the missing amount from the market with the cheapest price (only if the LC price there + transportation costs is less than his own loacal price, of course). Potentially, nearby markets may demand LC from him as well if their price is higher (if they face demand>supply OR need to refill their "emergency stock").
    After todays trades, he sits down and looks at the numers. if his emergency stock of LC decreased (demand>supply), he will marginally increase tomorrows price for LC. If it increased, he will marginally lower it.

    As he earns decently from trade and transportation, he should be able to uphold emergency stocks large enough to buffer fluctuations. If still not all demand can be satisfied, he will supply locals first.
    what an economist imagines VIII like : The vision

    CER : THE renaming mod : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post12834251

  11. #31
    (this was a responce to calvinhobbes)

    I think you are misremembering. Purchasing power parity tells you how much you can get with money in different countries- it is determined quite heavily by the fact some goods and services (like haircuts, janitors, etc) can't be traded.

    Exchange rates do establish comparative advantage, provided the value of the currency can float. I'll give an example because it is hard to illustrate the concept any other way.

    (numbers listed are the price the factories can sell the goods at)

    Country 1
    lumber 40
    steel 50

    Country 2
    lumber 25
    steel 20

    In a normal game, country 1 factories are worse than country 2 and wouldn't be able to compete. Country 1 doesn't exports and continues to import lumber and steel. However, what exchange rates what would happen is country ones currency would devalue (lets do by 50%) so

    Country 1 (the uno)
    lumber 40 unos or 20 doses
    steel 50 unos or 25 doses

    Country 2 (The dos)
    lumber 25 doses
    steel 20 doses

    The end result is that country 1 becomes competitive in lumber.

    The immediate problems I see is how are you going to set the values of currencies (do you let the pops currency speculate?), what do you do about currencys whose value is tied to gold (and the inflation that precious metal RGOs would cause) and how do you let the player deal with currency shocks- it would be annoying for an Afghanistan player to attempt to build an irregular and find they wiped out all their foreign exchange.

    In an attempt to simplify the system, I recommend that
    -all uncivilized countries share a common currency (they won't be building factories anyways)
    -spheres share a common currency
    -Latin America shares a common currency

    That should hopefully reduce the amount of calculations the computer would have to do.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Eichenthal View Post
    hope computers can cope when the time comes
    They can't. Creative Assembly which produces the total war series wasn't able to get over that hurdle and they have much more resources than Paradox. They managed to increase the intelligence of the AI when moving from Empire to Napoleon and Shogun 2 by constraining the map to only a few routes for armies to take.

    It isn't a problem that can be easily solved. I believe the reason is that it is an exponential problem- the complexity of the problem increases faster than the additional units because you have to take into account the relationship between each unit.

  13. #33
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSkinner View Post
    They can't. Creative Assembly which produces the total war series wasn't able to get over that hurdle and they have much more resources than Paradox. They managed to increase the intelligence of the AI when moving from Empire to Napoleon and Shogun 2 by constraining the map to only a few routes for armies to take.

    It isn't a problem that can be easily solved. I believe the reason is that it is an exponential problem- the complexity of the problem increases faster than the additional units because you have to take into account the relationship between each unit.
    I dont think armies should have to go through each tiny part, just the overall province or county. If counties are only 2-5 per province, it is still the same or less than HOI3 has in total.
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  14. #34
    SDSkinner, your model doesn't answer his question. Calvin was asking if exchange rates alone give comparative advantage. Your model assumed that price are not the same worldwide.

    Eichenthal, the notion that poor people have higher growth rates is very much deniable. I would offer you the example of the post revolutionary US which had one of the highest growth rates in history, even disregarding immigration at the same time that it's population had a very high standard of living and there was very little inequality.
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  15. #35
    Oh, yeah, you don't get comparative advantage if the price ratios are the same. Normally the odds of that are zero, but in game most of the modifier are generic so that would be a legitimate problem.

  16. #36
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSkinner View Post
    (this was a responce to calvinhobbes)

    I think you are misremembering. Purchasing power parity tells you how much you can get with money in different countries- it is determined quite heavily by the fact some goods and services (like haircuts, janitors, etc) can't be traded.

    Exchange rates do establish comparative advantage, provided the value of the currency can float. I'll give an example because it is hard to illustrate the concept any other way.

    (numbers listed are the price the factories can sell the goods at)

    Country 1
    lumber 40
    steel 50

    Country 2
    lumber 25
    steel 20

    In a normal game, country 1 factories are worse than country 2 and wouldn't be able to compete. Country 1 doesn't exports and continues to import lumber and steel.
    Uh, no. Country 1 has an absolute advantage in both, but only a comparative advantage in steel(since the opportuniy cost of steel for country 1 is 0.8, while the opp. cost for steel of country 2 is 1.25. These ratios are reversed for lumber. Thus, if 1 produced just steel and 2 just lumber, collectively, they produce more steel and lumber than in any other scenario.

    Creating a new currency like that doesn't magically make factories more competetive; it would be like saying that you can make your business more efficient if you sold the product in quarters instead of dollars.

  17. #37
    Edit- I think I understand what your complaint is. You are saying it isn't creating a new comparitive advantage and I'm refering to wheter or not the factories would actually be able to produce and sell goods. My bad.

  18. #38
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSkinner View Post
    Edit- I think I understand what your complaint is. You are saying it isn't creating a new comparitive advantage and I'm refering to wheter or not the factories would actually be able to produce and sell goods. My bad.
    No problem. But I still don't see how creating a new currency helps factories sell their goods...

  19. #39
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    Ideally, I think the biggest step of all Paradox games is a defensive AI. This along with a better warscore generator that factored in a collapsed nation would be much better.

    I should not need to Occupy an entire nation to get peace after total decimation of the army.

    One other thing, making States in Africa needs to be much much harder, if not impossible. Maybe I am wrong, but I do not believe France, England and Belgium industrialized the entirety of Africa.

    It makes no sense that by 1870 I cannot use a Place in the Sun CB on France because every African possession is not only a State but is more industrialised than the entirety of Spain.
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  20. #40
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    As a concession in the direction of true regional markets, I'd settle for transportation costs. This would at least make overseas market penetration a bit harder than it is now.
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