AHD Westernization

[drkpendragon]

That's not true. Both relations and civilization progress increase your chances of getting sphered by AI. Pass an extra reform or two, improve your relations, and you'd see more activity immediately.

Can I have more diplomacy points then? Because they certainly don't give you enough to do anything interesting right now. I don't know how much reforms mater, but I do know that even bordering a great power is not enough even if you're powerful enough to be a great power yourself if you could actually westernize. I'm not saying it's impossible, but with most nations, you're more likely to be westernized without trying too hard before you actually get brought into a sphere. All improving relations really does is boost their gain by a mere 20% at 200 points anyways. That would take me about 10 years of doing absolutely nothing to achieve.

[stnikolauswagne]

I noticed some of the economic reforms were of extremely dubious value, the administration reform only increased militancy. It seems like the unciv addition wasn't completely thought through.

Take a look at the "no administrative reforms"-stage of that particular decision, it gives -10% administrative Efficiency.

[delra]

All improving relations really does is boost their gain by a mere 20% at 200 points anyways.

Having higher relations with AI makes that AI more likely to choose you as the target for their influence. AI spheres friendly countries more often. As Japan you want to push some military reforms first and work on relations with the USA, and when you get their sphere, westernize via economy. It's smooth and lands you very close to historical date of Meiji, if not before that (depends on Western Influences strength (which is pure luck) and the level of Reactionary revolts).

[drkpendragon]

Having higher relations with AI makes that AI more likely to choose you as the target for their influence. AI spheres friendly countries more often. As Japan you want to push some military reforms first and work on relations with the USA, and when you get their sphere, westernize via economy. It's smooth and lands you very close to historical date of Meiji, if not before that (depends on Western Influences strength (which is pure luck) and the level of Reactionary revolts).

Even then, is it worth 10 years? That's basically the same as conquering five other nations. And at the beginning, you can get five great nations before everyone gets clustered. Furthermore, the financial and education reforms are very important and I'd say must be taken first unless you want to hurt yourself in the long run. Also, the USA bonus, while better, is also not the best target I think. The UK is easy to border, makes for a better ally and ends up with just about the same bonus in military because of your starting bonus. The UK will also give better technologies.

However, I still wonder how much boosting relations really helps. I can also already westernize before the historical date of Meiji, but the point is more about being put into a sphere. I think the problem is that the great powers focus on more civilized nations to sphere first, then by the time they'd bother with most uncivilized countries, the player would already be westernizing. Having higher reforms may make them pick you first, but they'll still pick a civilized nation over you.

[colinljx]

... why the hell would you get a permanent bonus for civilizing in the lifetime of the game? It makes no sense for a nation which 'civilized' BEFORE 1836 to be denied such bonuses, but those who civ afterwards to be given permanent reform boosts.

And the bunch of free techs, plus the fact that everyone can get earlier tech cheaper, means it's entirely possible to catch up in tech tbh. I think you're very much in the minority on this one, tbh.

To be honest, you haven't tried an unciv nation seriously, and tbh, you didn't read the post of others before posting your own opinion, and tbh, you are the real minority on this one.
"Bunch of free tech"- It takes time and luck to be sphered by a GP controlled by AI, even if they are your neighbor, so good luck with that.
"Makes no sense" for unciv to be given permanent reform boost - unciv states suffer penalties without those reforms, and it takes at least 40 years to westernization for states like Japan. (longer for China) Why shouldn't they keep some of those tiny bonuses from the worthless reforms which they have to try so hard to get?
"entirely possible to catch up in tech" - sure, after wasting over 40 game years (nearly half of the game span) on the pathetic westernization, unciv Have To spend the rest of the game time to catch up, which must be "FUN" in a human hand, heh. Go back to playing your GP if that's all u can do.
Read before saying anything. Those who shows little respect deserve no respect.

[s1234567890m]

...westernising removes the uncivs malus, the removal of the 'benefits' are over shadowed by the granted techs, and removal of the malus (ie tax goes from 10% to 20%+tecs)

[Darkrenown]

I noticed some of the economic reforms were of extremely dubious value, the administration reform only increased militancy. It seems like the unciv addition wasn't completely thought through.

It seems like you didn't read the tooltip for the reform you're getting rid of. And haven't read the manual

[Naselus]

To be honest, you haven't tried an unciv nation seriously, and tbh, you didn't read the post of others before posting your own opinion, and tbh, you are the real minority on this one.

Yup, that month of playing through the civilizing system in Beta totally didn't involve me trying one seriously. I had balloons. And I wore a silly mask. But that's really only the first of many silly statements in your post, so I won't waste too much time commenting on that one.

Seriously, I've played through considerably more uncivs games than you have. Even if you started playing AHD the minute it was released, and haven't stopped since, I have still played more unciv games of AHD than you. You will overtake me some time tomorrow afternoon, unless I start a new one. But then, you haven't been playing constantly, so I'm guessing I still have a couple of days worth of play time on you.

"Bunch of free tech"- It takes time and luck to be sphered by a GP controlled by AI, even if they are your neighbor, so good luck with that.

Not really, it takes time and knowing what you're doing. As Delra has pointed out twice in the posts I didn't bother reading, you need to improve relations. I suspect you haven't been reading the posts of others before posting your opinion.

"Makes no sense" for unciv to be given permanent reform boost - unciv states suffer penalties without those reforms, and it takes at least 40 years to westernization for states like Japan. (longer for China) Why shouldn't they keep some of those tiny bonuses from the worthless reforms which they have to try so hard to get?

Because they now have much better bonuses for being civilized, and so shouldn't get uncivilized reforms anymore? Besides, as you point out, they suffer penalties from lacking certain reforms. Those penalties are not suddenly re-applied when you civilize, so you are getting to keep some bonuses. In fact, on the economic reforms side, there's not really any bonuses to keep - it purely cancels out negatives.

The fact that you receive techs more than compensates you for losing 10% land org.

"entirely possible to catch up in tech" - sure, after wasting over 40 game years (nearly half of the game span) on the pathetic westernization, unciv Have To spend the rest of the game time to catch up, which must be "FUN" in a human hand, heh. Go back to playing your GP if that's all u can do.

I see. So you feel you should be able to spend 5 years civilizing Zulu, and then catch up with the UK in the next 10 years or so? I'd suggest that actually, you should probably be the one going back to playing with GPs, since you clearly don't like playing an unciv at all. That's pretty much what you keep saying.

Read before saying anything. Those who shows little respect deserve no respect.

And those who have to end every paragraph or point with petty insults and ridiculous assumptions like 'Go back to playing your GP if that's all u can do.' and 'you haven't tried an unciv nation seriously' should probably not post at all.

I have read through the whole thread, and there's 3 people who feel Westernization is problematic - or rather, two who feel it's a bit slow, and you repeatedly saying the same thing, over and over - and a lot of people pointing out why half the reasons you cite are just plain factually incorrect. So I'd suggest your claim that those who like the new system are 'the real minority' is either deluded, or at best hopelessly optimistic.

I do agree that civving out of SOI is a bit on the slow side, but I disagree with the idea that you should keep some bonuses (particularly since some don't make any sense, like 'can build factory in capital'). And getting into an SOI isn't that hard.

It might just be possible that you bought AHD, installed it, and did not instantly and completely understand every nuance and aspect of the civilizing system instantly upon setting eyes on it. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

[RedRalphWiggum]

Cool it down folks!

[Caezaire]

I find the Westernization more enjoyable than the previous one. It is a bit slower for some nations, but once you are passed them it is easier to catch up. Its more enjoyable than the previous system.

[drkpendragon]

It seems like you didn't read the tooltip for the reform you're getting rid of. And haven't read the manual

To be honest, it's easy to miss

It's just that most people don't notice that you actually start with a negative in some aspects.

[Naveed]

It seems like you didn't read the tooltip for the reform you're getting rid of. And haven't read the manual

Totally missed maluses! TGIF so I'll get a better impression this weekend.

[Sakkura]

And getting into an SOI isn't that hard.

I don't know. It seems rather random, and it's not something the player can really control (you can increase relations all you want, but at the end of the day the GP decides whether it wants to influence you or not). So it's a feature that can lead to frustrating situations.

[lollibast]

As i posted earlier, i played Punjab which didn't work at all. Tried Japan and that went pretty good. So, with Punjab I was in UK's SOI and still accrued too few RPs to pass reforms fast enough. Stated out with 2 RP/day and got it to 3/day after heavily spending my dimishing income on education. At some point my artisans stopped producing any goods, I got no income from tariffs and my taxincome from farmers got extremely low. Roughly calculating the estimated time to fully westernize at 2-3RP/day and apx. 100k RPs for 100% westernizeprogress it takes 110 years, i.e. game over before that.

Basically, the time to westernize depends on the amount of RPs you get and the cost of refroms. You can increase RPs through NF on clergy and education spending but you can't put more liberals in your upperhouse. So unless you get decent boni on research like Japan I don't see how to westernize with other uncivs unless there is a way to speed things up I don't know about.

[heliostellar]

You might know this already, but - if you are in a sphere, you will generally get a reduction of RP costs for your reforms.

Westernising as both China and Japan felt fairly reasonable to me in terms of time it took, but I'm interested to hear what you think, and will of course keep an eye on this thread.

I westernized Japan in 1884, which makes sense. They were commonly considered "westernized" by the 1890s IRL.

[heliostellar]

I believe all the positive modifier of these reforms will vanish once u westernize, meaning this new process is completely worthless and time consuming, since u will be spending time gathering more research point for reforms that may not even grant u a tech achievement (because they cost less research for westernization process). It may seem juicy, but it taste like paper plate... Another failed attempt to revitalize the eastern countries after what happened to DW I guess. The devs doesn't seem to understand that ppl play unciv countries for the same amount of fun they can get from civilized countries as well as the challenge of westernization and such, and they focused more on the challenge but not the fun part...

True, but you'll have enjoyed a faster rate of literacy growth which means once you've westernized you'll have a higher literacy rate than if you didn't pick this reform.

[heliostellar]

I noticed some of the economic reforms were of extremely dubious value, the administration reform only increased militancy. It seems like the unciv addition wasn't completely thought through.

ADM rating raise the effective tariff rate, so if you aren't relying heavily on them then, no. Another reform would be more worthwhile.

[colinljx]

@Naselus
Since our dear moderator has requested us to cool down, I won't write a whole wall back to you like you did, but the key points I have been posting in this thread and other ones is: Westernization in its current form is more time consuming than before, not fun, and not worth the research cost. (Face it, it is the process of getting to the starting line of "civilized" nation, and now the unciv are even further behind from the start) Combine it with little to do while waiting, the gameplay of unciv is plain boredom.
If you did pre-tested AHD like you claimed, then I apologize for questioning your experience. However, you did put down your thought in a way that leads people into thinking you didn't tried the unciv before posting. Lack of supporting evidence perhaps?
If you feel somewhat insulted by my earlier response, then I sincerely apologize again for the misunderstanding. However, your tongue of voice did make me very uncomfortable as you put out those questions under the assumption that I am the one who didn't fully test the game. Fear not, others in other threads have done the same so you are not alone.
If you wish to see a more solid argument from me against every point you made, please let me know, since the last post you made was denouncing my arguments and myself, which sounds insulting.
There are many people like you who are understating the difficulties and changes of westernization, and I just feel obligated to point out the facts for individuals who are interested in AHD while most voices around are praising everything about it.

[delra]

If you did pre-tested AHD like you claimed, then I apologize for questioning your experience.

Lol, man, seriously this argument? He had a year of modding experience and tens of thousands of devoted fans of his work even before the beta started... Noone minds your criticism (if anything, it helps us to know what to look at), but seriously, please don't attack Naselus on experience. ;-)

[ZhangWuJi]

You guys are forgetting another wonderful advantage of this system... in vanilla (without "uber" playing), how many uncivs could get the military score or prestige needed to civilize? This new system allows even those 20k POP uncivs the chance to civilize!

I cived Japan in 1870 and got all tier 2 and some tier 3 techs and had no sphere leader. Cived in 1863 with Spanish overlords and didn't even get some tier 1 techs. Dunno if that means Spain sucks or if just waiting is better because it was a huge difference.

That being said, the uncivilised period does seems more of a waiting game but that can be solved with manufacturing CBs

Finally agree with the sphereing comments. After Spain's lackluster tech grant, I was waiting for Dutch or British before civing...got impatient in 1870. They keep banning until someone (Dutch) fall off the GP list, then they stop influencing. I do think relations is important (another game kept influencing USA and they took me into sphere fairly quickly). Never had anyone invest in me yet.