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AHD Westernization

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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
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The unciv reform bonuses are hardly worthless, they give you important advantages while in the process of westernizing. The military ones can make you much more capable of beating down other uncivs or fighting off imperialists, and the economic ones can help alleviate the financial issues.

Just because you lose them after westernizing doesn't mean they aren't useful while you have them.
 
colinljx said:
I believe all the positive modifier of these reforms will vanish once u westernize, meaning this new process is completely worthless and time consuming, since u will be spending time gathering more research point for reforms that may not even grant u a tech achievement (because they cost less research for westernization process). It may seem juicy, but it taste like paper plate... Another failed attempt to revitalize the eastern countries after what happened to DW I guess. The devs doesn't seem to understand that ppl play unciv countries for the same amount of fun they can get from civilized countries as well as the challenge of westernization and such, and they focused more on the challenge but not the fun part...
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Give one good reason why a westernised nation should get boosts over nations westernised for many years?
 
Derp said:
The unciv reform bonuses are hardly worthless, they give you important advantages while in the process of westernizing. The military ones can make you much more capable of beating down other uncivs or fighting off imperialists, and the economic ones can help alleviate the financial issues.

Just because you lose them after westernizing doesn't mean they aren't useful while you have them.
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Also a number of the reforms are actually undoing penalty modifiers that uncivs have at the start, so by definition you won't lose them when you do westernise. For me, I think I like the new mechanic. Yeah it makes these countries more challenging, but that's a good thing.

I am sure that for anyone who insists that the new westernisation process is a little too grueling, someone will release a mod that quickens it up anyway.
 
DoomBunny said:
Give one good reason why a westernised nation should get boosts over nations westernised for many years?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

Also, countries building institutions from the ground up can often do so in innovative or more efficient ways than those who have already had the same institutions. That being said, you do get bonus techs when you Westernise.
 
Personally I think this works very well..
Just passed 1910 as Japan, I'm a great power (number 4 right now) I'm not that far behind on tech any more (even surpassed a few European countries) and kicked a few European countries + china.. Think I westernised around 1875..

Though I do wonder if it's on purpose that china is considered a colony for Japan after invading it :/ this fact kinda sucks as I can't get any japanese people over there (don't migrate naturally for some reason and can't use national focus points for this..) thus never able to fully utilise the country (and those millions of workers)..

On a side note for the reforms for westernising - I think they worked pretty well.. and the picing seemed fair for what you got from them..

-Whitey
 
I think the speed is fine, if not just to make it more fun. Basically, it's more challenging to do it fast. So, giving the player the chance to do it early, but have more of a challenge rather than simply wait for history to unfold is a good idea. I think this is a good concept to do with in future expansions and other games.

One problem I have had, however, was that it's hard to get brought into a sphere. Although I may have just not played enough. Basically, as Japan, I always take Johore because they have gold and a path to Africa. Of course this means I share a border with the UK, but they still don't pay any attention to me.
 
I played a game trying to westernise as Persia. It has been 30 years and I've only passed 3 reforms. I have had clergy focuses all game and my tech rate is still very slow. Not to mention I am getting a ton of reactionary rebels.
 
drkpendragon said:
One problem I have had, however, was that it's hard to get brought into a sphere. Although I may have just not played enough. Basically, as Japan, I always take Johore because they have gold and a path to Africa. Of course this means I share a border with the UK, but they still don't pay any attention to me.
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That's true. I've seen the GPs largely ignore Japan for decades in an 1836 game. It would be understandable for some tiny unciv nobody really cares about, but Japan... they should be more interested in sphering it.
 
Sakkura said:
That's true. I've seen the GPs largely ignore Japan for decades in an 1836 game. It would be understandable for some tiny unciv nobody really cares about, but Japan... they should be more interested in sphering it.
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Even worse is when they do influence you but get stuck in a bizarre discredit loop. The diplomatic AI needs some work.
 
Darkrenown said:
You might want to keep calm there, Colin.

1) The effects of techs ARE much better than the effects of unciv Reforms. If you disagree, point out which are better.
2) No one said the big GPs should wait to research, the point was that that newly westernised nations will normally have cheaper techs due to them being past their historical date.
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Trust me, if I'm not calm right now, I would be denouncing the game elsewhere instead of just seeking solutions on the forum.
For 1) I never disagreed about the effects of tech being better. In fact, that's exactly what I have been talking about. The reforms are bad because they bring no permanent benefit to a unciv country while costing a lot more research than before, which brings only the challenge & difficulty but no fun into the westernization process.
2) I know that point, but it's extremely annoying when some people try to justify the new westernization reforms with "the tech will be cheaper if u wait", which makes no sense.

If the westernization reforms cost less and produce some lasting positive effect (education/military/etc.) on the entire country all the way to end-game, (giving unciv some edge against the civ after westernization to overcome the tech distance) then I am all in for it, but right now they cost a lot of time and brings little benefit. Since the gaming experience of playing unciv is not improved, I say the reforms have failed to achieve their intended purposes and thus being a letdown of AHD.
 
colinljx said:
Trust me, if I'm not calm right now, I would be denouncing the game elsewhere instead of just seeking solutions on the forum.
For 1) I never disagreed about the effects of tech being better. In fact, that's exactly what I have been talking about. The reforms are bad because they bring no permanent benefit to a unciv country while costing a lot more research than before, which brings only the challenge & difficulty but no fun into the westernization process.
2) I know that point, but it's extremely annoying when some people try to justify the new westernization reforms with "the tech will be cheaper if u wait", which makes no sense.

If the westernization reforms cost less and produce some lasting positive effect (education/military/etc.) on the entire country all the way to end-game, (giving unciv some edge against the civ after westernization to overcome the tech distance) then I am all in for it, but right now they cost a lot of time and brings little benefit. Since the gaming experience of playing unciv is not improved, I say the reforms have failed to achieve their intended purposes and thus being a letdown of AHD.
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You know your tech doesn't start at square one after westernization, right?

You get a bunch of techs for free from your sphere leader after westenizing.

I generally had 10 or so techs in each category...INCLUDING the 100% boosts in research from culture.

Let me know when a 100% boost is lower than a 25%~ boost.
 
TheChronoMaster said:
You know your tech doesn't start at square one after westernization, right?

You get a bunch of techs for free from your sphere leader after westenizing.
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That's if and only if someone is willing to sphere you, sir. Haven't you noticed how many people have talked about their Japan/China/some countries never got a sphere leader even though a GP is a neighbor?
 
Does anyone have any recommendations for uncivs which are likely to be sphered?
 
Persia gets quickly sphered by Russia, Hawaii and Japan by the USA, Brits like to sphere various Indian states. Egypt is heavily contested by many GPs as well. Improve your relations with one of GPs to increase their will to sphere you.
 
I've only played Japan so far, regarding the sphere issue; Spain, the USA, Russia and France did influence me slightly, however it was half-assed.

Looking at the bigger picture;
All GP's fight over Egypt and Columbia because of the Canal decisions.
France and Britain battle over Belgium.
Russia and the Ottomans battle over Persia(between forging CB's on each other)
Prussia and Austria battle with each other, as well as France, over the German minors.
The USA likes to focus on Haiti/UPCA/Mexico/Hawaii- the nations on its continent.

Seems logical to me that Japan would be a low priority until -
Belgium GP's so France and Britain focus elsewhere.
Germany forms
The Ottomans drop into secondary power status leaving Russia free to sphere Serbia and the Romanian principalities.
The USA takes it's cores, annexes Hawaii, spheres North America.

That said, during vanilla Vicky, I rarely got Sphered as Japan until Russia claimed Sakhalin and had a border with me. SO hardly seems a new issue to me personally.

tl;dr - Japan despite being arguably the "best" unciv, isn't worth the GP's attention until they've consolidated elsewhere. Far more profitable for them to sphere the nations they do as opposed to the Island Unciv with the cool flag and history.
 
artemis667 said:
Does anyone have any recommendations for uncivs which are likely to be sphered?
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None. It seems like the AI ignores them and almost solely focuses on smaller, civilized nations. I'm assuming they'll change this in a patch, but as of right now, I wouldn't worry about it. What I would probably do right now is do the early westernization event, save up until you can pass the first financial reform to double taxes, then go for the education reform. Then, you can either pump points slowly into whatever reforms you get the cheapest to westernize faster or save your points until you finally get put into a sphere, if it ever happens. However, I'm not sure how bad your militancy would be if you passed 80% worth of reforms in one go and then westernized.
 
That's not true. Both relations and civilization progress increase your chances of getting sphered by AI. Pass an extra reform or two, improve your relations, and you'd see more activity immediately.
 
Kyoumen said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War
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That doesnt justify giving them a boost over nations that have been civilised for a longer time. Yes, its an example of a recentley modernised nation beating one that had modernised a long time ago, but it gives no real justification for a blanket bonus to uncivs. Not to mention that Russia is hardly a good example of a fully modernised nation.

As for your innovation point, its fair enough, but it still doesnt justify a blanket bonus.
 
colinljx said:
If the westernization reforms cost less and produce some lasting positive effect (education/military/etc.) on the entire country all the way to end-game, (giving unciv some edge against the civ after westernization to overcome the tech distance) then I am all in for it, but right now they cost a lot of time and brings little benefit. Since the gaming experience of playing unciv is not improved, I say the reforms have failed to achieve their intended purposes and thus being a letdown of AHD.
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... why the hell would you get a permanent bonus for civilizing in the lifetime of the game? It makes no sense for a nation which 'civilized' BEFORE 1836 to be denied such bonuses, but those who civ afterwards to be given permanent reform boosts.

And the bunch of free techs, plus the fact that everyone can get earlier tech cheaper, means it's entirely possible to catch up in tech tbh. I think you're very much in the minority on this one, tbh.
 
xcrissxcrossx said:
I played a game trying to westernise as Persia. It has been 30 years and I've only passed 3 reforms. I have had clergy focuses all game and my tech rate is still very slow. Not to mention I am getting a ton of reactionary rebels.
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Played a game as Persia as well and it was not fun. There is no natural promotion because your pops are too poor even with max subsidies and low poor taxes and since your limited to 1 national focus you are unable to do anything with your country other than fight wars. The national focus handicaps large uncivs(except apparently Japan).

It was very boring and frustrating, all I could do was wait and there was nothing to work towards to improve my country.

I noticed some of the economic reforms were of extremely dubious value, the administration reform only increased militancy. It seems like the unciv addition wasn't completely thought through.
 
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