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Thread: Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Commonwealth (adding Muscowy to PLC).

  1. #21
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    And a Polish-Lithuanian-Hungarian-Bohemian Commonwealth as well. If the Jagiellons united their separately reigning dynasty branches and therefore evaded dying out, it's clear that the powerful Hungarian and Bohemian nobles would push for the same structure of government as powerful Polish and Lithuanian magnates. One can recycle the Austria-Hungary-Bohemia tag for these purposes.

  2. #22
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    Lithuania is itself "russian" state. It's full name is Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia. Many (if not most) people there considered themselves Russians (as much as you could consider yourself Russian at the time). And they have many Orthodox people up until Poland was eaten by Russia. So nationality or religion is not a big problem. But oh well, Muscowy had it's own Metropolitan so they wouldn't drop Orthodox so easy.

  3. #23
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    To be honest it is a bit disappointing that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth isn't adequately simulated; to me it seems to put a big dent in MM's claim to historicity.

  4. #24
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    It is simulated: With factions, and the elective sistem, and parliaments. It lacks a tag, but it is represented in that way

  5. #25
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    I'm a big Poland fan, too, and wish the PLC was included in the game. Hopefully it will get modded in soon after release.

  6. #26
    Second Lieutenant Robmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cail View Post
    Most people interested in the history of Eastern Europe probably know (or at least they should) that such a union has been considered several times in actual history. Several attempts/suggestions were made, including Ivan the Terrible being pretty close to being elected the monarch of the PLC, Polish prince Vladislav actually having been elected the tsar of Russia (later expelled though), and several others.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-...e_Commonwealth

    This should obviously be extremely difficult to achieve, due to lots of underlying contradictions in religion, political systems et cetera. All these factors actually prevented it in the real history.
    Not only extremely difficult, but almost outright impossible. There is huge question, where the political and economical center would lie for such a state/union?
    Those monarchy candidacies were more to do with megalomania tendencies of both Ivan Grozny and Vladislav. There was little - so to say "touch with reality".
    1)PLC conquers Muscowy or vice versa, and after a very long period of occupation (like 50-100 years or more), constantly quelling rebellions, enacting lots of appeasing decisions having a chance to get access to a decision to form a proper union.
    Conqueror doesn't make union with the defeated realm. The right of sword.
    2)A veeery religiously free-minded Muscowy and PLC, having similar political sliders, being in a personal union, instead of having a chance to inherit, have a chance to form PLMC/PLRC.
    First of all Orthodox Muscovy being religiously free minded, especially regards to Catholicism is extremely far-fetched. Reasons lie in Orthodox church doctrine - which is too huge subject to discuss in this thread.
    Its hard to imagine personal union between PLC and Muscovy which would last more than one generation. It would be almost guaranteed that after the death of Monarch - the personal union would collapse.
    3)PLC being able to form PLRC after having assimilated a number of Russian principalities (not necessarily Muscowy)
    What do you mean assimilated?
    OR Lithuania forming Lithuanian-Russian commonwealth alternatively to PLC (possibly with an option to later have a union with Poland also).
    Muscovy and Lithuania were two very distinct states. This is less to do with "ethnicities", but more with Law, Religion (how it was governed) and the prerogatives of the elites.

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse
    PLC was a very different union compared to either Spain or UK. So different that it wouldn't be properly represented if we would simply add a nation-forming union decision to Poland and Lithuania.
    What would be the main differences ("so different" as you say) state's structure wise or anything else between tag worthy United Kingdom, Spain and tag unworthy PLC on the other side?

    Quote Originally Posted by trashing mad
    It's rather implausible because Russians wouldn't accept Catholic ruler, and king of PLC cannot be Orthodox (or Protestant). Introducing special mechanics/events/decisions in such case would be wrong IMO. Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian (read - Ukrainian/Cossack) Commonwealth on the other hand is plausible, and would result in 'butterflying away' Cossack rebellions at cost of reducing centralisation, power of aristocracy, and introducing more religious tolerance.
    Agree. Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian commonwealth is imo plausible in one more way not involving Ukrainian Cossacks as in historical treaty of Hadiach. Think something of like succesful Micheal Glinki rebellion 1507 and his Duchy of Boristen goal. Essentially such commonwealth is possible between Poles, Lithuanians and Ruthenians(with power base on Dnieper river basin), but not with Muscovy (Volga river basin power base too far, diverging economic interests and other differences).

  7. #27
    On Probation thrashing mad's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robmel View Post
    Agree. Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian commonwealth is imo plausible in one more way not involving Ukrainian Cossacks as in historical treaty of Hadiach. Think something of like succesful Micheal Glinki rebellion 1507 and his Duchy of Boristen goal. Essentially such commonwealth is possible between Poles, Lithuanians and Ruthenians(with power base on Dnieper river basin), but not with Muscovy (Volga river basin power base too far, diverging economic interests and other differences).
    It is especially interesting that theoretically, with help of loyal Cossacks, king could have some leverage towards powerful magnates - a way to stop PLC from declining into a 'Noble Anarchy'. And yeah, this would be proper simulation of PLC - a very hard struggle against crippling power of aristocracy, corruption, and foreign meddling - not sure if generic 'Elective Monarchy' (which 1453 Denmark starts with, and AFAIK historically it wasn't similar to PLC's political system) with factions could achieve such effect. My hope is that devs would eventually turn their attention to Eastern Europe with on of the patches.

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