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Thread: Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Commonwealth (adding Muscowy to PLC).

  1. #1

    Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Commonwealth (adding Muscowy to PLC).

    Most people interested in the history of Eastern Europe probably know (or at least they should) that such a union has been considered several times in actual history. Several attempts/suggestions were made, including Ivan the Terrible being pretty close to being elected the monarch of the PLC, Polish prince Vladislav actually having been elected the tsar of Russia (later expelled though), and several others.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-...e_Commonwealth

    This should obviously be extremely difficult to achieve, due to lots of underlying contradictions in religion, political systems et cetera. All these factors actually prevented it in the real history.

    Can see several ways to this:

    1)PLC conquers Muscowy or vice versa, and after a very long period of occupation (like 50-100 years or more), constantly quelling rebellions, enacting lots of appeasing decisions having a chance to get access to a decision to form a proper union.

    2)A veeery religiously free-minded Muscowy and PLC, having similar political sliders, being in a personal union, instead of having a chance to inherit, have a chance to form PLMC/PLRC.

    3)PLC being able to form PLRC after having assimilated a number of Russian principalities (not necessarily Muscowy) OR Lithuania forming Lithuanian-Russian commonwealth alternatively to PLC (possibly with an option to later have a union with Poland also). Based on real history, prior to Muscowy more or less unifying Russia through conquest and politics (and a good deal of time after that), Lithuanian Grand Duchy (being mostly Slavic despite the name) has been considered an alternative center of power in the ex-Kievan Rus'. Western Russian principalities had historically as much chance to be unified by GDL as by MDL. Again, this would require lots of religious/political reforms, generaly huge losses of stability and control, appeasing of the population and nobility et cetera.

    All of this probably should only be possible in the 1st half of the game (prior to about 1650). Later it just seems too unrealistic if we stick to the idea of "different but similar" history (as it is in the EU series mostly) as opposed to free-for-all alternative history.

    As a PC seems to be unlikely to achieve it on its own, to give us some chance to see it other than playing it out ourselves, PCs should have a chance (like about 10%) to acquire a series of missions leading to one of these outcomes.

  2. #2
    Sellsword Troll Descri's Avatar
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    Extremely improbable to the point of ridicule. During the infamous time of troubles, the most opportune time for the Poles to strike, the Russian general population all pushed the Poles out of Russia with vigorous force.
    If the Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth were to ever conquer Russia, it would be seen as a pure conquest and nothing more. Beyond the extreme religious differences, the Boyars were extremely self-competent with resisting foreign rule, each being ambitious to lead a -Russian- state against conquerors. The very concept that a true union could be achieved is bizarre and was extremely unlikely.
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  3. #3
    There are no current plans to include a PLC tag in the initial release at this time, so you will need to mod this yourself if you desire it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    There are no current plans to include a PLC tag in the initial release at this time, so you will need to mod this yourself if you desire it.
    Well, i'm sure there are plans to create some mechanics for it at least? I mean, it won't be just like any other personal union->inheritance i hope?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Descri View Post
    Extremely improbable to the point of ridicule. During the infamous time of troubles, the most opportune time for the Poles to strike, the Russian general population all pushed the Poles out of Russia with vigorous force.
    I think talking about 'general population' does not make much sense at that time. Do you really think that Russian 'general population' cared if tsar is Russian or Polish? As long as he would enjoy support of nobles and converted to ortodoxy to have support from Russian church 'general population' would not care if he is not Russian, they may even not know about it!
    However, I am against such P-L-R-C it would not last, it would be simply too big and diverse.
    None.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cail View Post
    Well, i'm sure there are plans to create some mechanics for it at least? I mean, it won't be just like any other personal union->inheritance i hope?
    I cannot speak for developers, but from their previous posts think that there is nothing specific planned for PLC.
    None.

  7. #7
    Sellsword Troll Descri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rybka View Post
    I think talking about 'general population' does not make much sense at that time. Do you really think that Russian 'general population' cared if tsar is Russian or Polish? As long as he would enjoy support of nobles and converted to ortodoxy to have support from Russian church 'general population' would not care if he is not Russian, they may even not know about it!
    The Russian general population didn't care at all about the "nationality" of it's rulers, but they Polish nobles wanted all the Russians to convert to Catholicism. Now, by themselves the Russian would've resisted, but the the Orthodox religion had strong roots in Russia. The churches called for opposition of Catholicism, and so it could never settle as the Polish nobles wanted to. In a purely hypothetical situation where the Russians and Poles would've been both Orthodox or Catholics, things may have happened differently. But that is of course pure hypothesis.
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  8. #8
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    No. They have said that there won´t be a PLC tag, but that play with them will be really different to the mod, thanks to the factions and that (really powerful nobles, the parliament system... I think that that represent a country better than have the name and the flag...)

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    On Probation thrashing mad's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clophiroth View Post
    No. They have said that there won´t be a PLC tag, but that play with them will be really different to the mod, thanks to the factions and that (really powerful nobles, the parliament system... I think that that represent a country better than have the name and the flag...)
    Still - there are specific tags for other unions, like England+Scotland which changes into Great Britain, or Spain (Castille+Aragon), so lack of PLC looks like a weird omission. I guess that this is because MM was developed off EU3 which didn't have PLC, and 'inherited' only tags created by paradox devs back in the day.

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    PLC was a very different union compared to either Spain or UK. So different that it wouldn't be properly represented if we would simply add a nation-forming union decision to Poland and Lithuania.

  11. #11
    On Probation thrashing mad's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    PLC was a very different union compared to either Spain or UK. So different that it wouldn't be properly represented if we would simply add a nation-forming union decision to Poland and Lithuania.
    Sure, but for start dates after 1569 (some people use different start date feature after all )?

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    If Poland utterly annihilates all russian states, and converts all their provinces to catholic majority...
    ...That probably means Poland has high religious zeal and no problem with rebel whack-a-mole...
    But beyond that, could anyone with deeper understanding of the PLC elaborate if such a turn of events could lead to the russians being intergrated into the union?

  14. #14
    On Probation thrashing mad's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapochki View Post
    If Poland utterly annihilates all russian states, and converts all their provinces to catholic majority...
    ...That probably means Poland has high religious zeal and no problem with rebel whack-a-mole...
    But beyond that, could anyone with deeper understanding of the PLC elaborate if such a turn of events could lead to the russians being intergrated into the union?
    It's rather implausible because Russians wouldn't accept Catholic ruler, and king of PLC cannot be Orthodox (or Protestant). Introducing special mechanics/events/decisions in such case would be wrong IMO. Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian (read - Ukrainian/Cossack) Commonwealth on the other hand is plausible, and would result in 'butterflying away' Cossack rebellions at cost of reducing centralisation, power of aristocracy, and introducing more religious tolerance.

    But since there's no PLC, and just same Poland with more provs and cores after 1569, such discussion is irrelevant.

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    Sellsword Troll Descri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapochki View Post
    If Poland utterly annihilates all russian states, and converts all their provinces to catholic majority...
    ...That probably means Poland has high religious zeal and no problem with rebel whack-a-mole...
    But beyond that, could anyone with deeper understanding of the PLC elaborate if such a turn of events could lead to the russians being intergrated into the union?
    That's just conquest. The whole point of a union is a legal integration, not a forced one.
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    Командир Батаљона DanubianCossak's Avatar
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    Cail do you mind if i use some of your ideas for a EU3 mod? I think i wanna add some of those unification paths you mention.
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  17. #17
    I'm beginning to sound like a broken record:

    Now to go into some specifics on why a Polish-Lithuania tag is not seen as probable at this point: 1st - all the new dynamics and systems I feel that are needed to result in historical, plausible and balanced game play for this tag was not included in this cycle. Back in 2009, I identified Polish-Lithuania as an under-developed area and I have been working with scriptors and engine coding people ever since to get needed mechanics built. The Elective Monarchy government and the work done on Factions and representative politics are exciting results of some of this hard work. 2nd - There is not enough time in this cycle to define and make this tag and then balance everything involved correctly. This game already has benefited from extra time given to it, but unfortunately, this is not reason enough to move the release date even further back.

    As a result of the aforementioned details, I had withdrawn my request for this tag from the team about 6 months ago.
    The current set-up in later dates is a legacy - and if it will be changed (at a later date) I would want it to be done correctly, addressing such concerns as the Cossack rebellions. Including a PLC tag just to include a PLC tag goes against our design philosophy.

  18. #18
    Captain Arizael's Avatar

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    What about Poland-Liuthania-Russia-Hre commonwealth (with appropriate tag of course)?

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    What about a Poland - Lithuania - French Commonwealth tag (PLFC) ? Of course, it is very unlikely, but a Polish king reigned in France, so it might be conceived he could managed to pull a triple-crown. This definitely needs a new tag !
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    Or a Polish-Lithuanian-Prussian-Swedish Commonwealth! (PLPSC). What about if they unite the baltic, turning it in their Mare Nostrum? They deserve a tag too!

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