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Thread: National Unity question

  1. #21
    Captain Melichai's Avatar
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    Well, if the worst problem you have is HOI3 does not comply with your views of reality then youre doing okay.

  2. #22
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    My climb to the mountain top was ever worth it. The wisdom gained at the feet of the Dahli Panzer made all things ever clear and well.

    i hear you...

  3. #23
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    The French National Unity in this game isn't suprising. At that time, France was really divided between fascists and communist. Socialists came to power in 1936 in a conservative and mostly rural country, i.e. in a country with deep right wing roots. You can't really understand the problem if you take the game politic screen as a reference : the popular frond was leaded by the socialists and included some communists and left-center (more or less 'left' actually) people. Two years after a huge fascist riot in 1934.

    And if you refer to game mechanics, a France with more than 80 NU can retreat in north Africa (as some people wanted to do IRL btw), which makes the game a bit weird and can stop the whole WWII since Germany would be crazy to attack USSR in such a case.

    The real issue with this game is that the French army was the first army in the world : more than 2.000.000 men could be drafted, and this figure does not include the colonies. Of course there was really poor doctrines, but it make me laugh when I saw the french army for the first time in HOI3, since I'm a historian. And the manpower is really underestimated. A 40M people country with a 2 year draft with such a low manpower is really ridiculous.

  4. #24
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Dont get started on the Manpower in the game. We have had wicked debates going on for a year. Because National Unity tends to be like alot of things in HOI3 something you cant pin down because it is whatever Paradox wants it to be in each unique circumstance this issue is difficult to evaluate. France had alot of troubles internal pre and during WWII, both in Govt and in Military. By most accounts When Germany invaded the west, the Germans and Allies had essentially similar numbers of everything, and while many aspects are given notice as contributing to the outcome, most often at least that i have seen is due to the Internal struggles and poor leadership of the French. Like i said its hard to evaluate and discuss some of these topics when we dont have definitive answers as to what an element is.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Start at the beginning and get each thing right and move on, if you cant do it, then dont do it. I just never subscribed to bent nails.
    You're welcome to show me a game company that (a) actually does that on a budget the size of Paradox's (b) keeps getting stuff out the door fast enough to stay in business
    Nothing scares infantry like tanks that can see them. Nothing scares tank crews like infantry they can't see.

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  6. #26
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    It doesnt mean that a supposed Historical WW2 game has to get so many things wrong in order to make THEIR version correct. And when we discuss issues about the game here, we discuss exclusively about the game, they put the product on the market thereby making it available for discussion if they werent able to find a way to make it work or chose not to isnt our problem. This is the only forum i have been on in over 30 years where it seems most of the posters work for the company. Most of the issues we discuss here that need change (see the anschluss of austria debates) dont require any major work and simply should have been done the first time. If this is the way they had to do it i would have called it something different and already put in a disclaimer, otherwise it gives off a false sense of what it is.

  7. #27
    How can you simulate a country that had army forces doing the following AT THE SAME TIME :

    1) Kick the very ass of one of the most famed general of the WWII (Guderian) with a mere infantery regiment (Regiment of Algerian Infanterie, so a colonial one in more !) and have him go back quickly of almost 30 km.

    2) Have several hundreds thousand soldiers refusing for weeks to stop combats while the government had already sign peace with the german( case of the Maginot line soldiers who fighted almost a month after 'Armistice'.

    3) Soldiers that hold the might Pz at teh river crossing, mauled the first one to spare parts, and then started to run for 1000km

    It is almost impossible, point 3 is easily explained IRL by the fact Inf who were holding the line quite well and according to the plan were hit by a rumour the panzer did crossed somewhere else and then noticed some ARM coming from the right back. The reality being Arm did not have com (political decision) and were actiing not in conformity with the plan (it was a good idea from Huntzinger to counter attack with Arm; but noone knew it, so it was a pure desatre).

    another , that is uneasy to represent is the wrong understanding of the nature of Nazi Germany. The same defeat from France, leading to PEtain in power would have a good outcome if Hindenburg was still in power (similar to Bismark sending food to PAris ; Hindenburg would have behave as War Laws and decency oblige).

    How to represent in game what was infact the choice of very fews : Laval vs the Admirals (even if both were anti brits and somehow pro prussians; their vision of the greatness of France were trully opposite); Churchill vs Hallifax (well another conservative , close to Hallifax who were ready to find peace wit hconcession; while Churchill wanted it WITHOUT concession). And so on, and so on.

    So NU is just a flag that allow to have an historical outcome without needing lot of ressources; while allowing a player to have/force/hope for an unhistorical ooutcome (as GErmany you can heavily invest in spies, and raise or lower NU on specific target countries; leading to coup and installation of friendly governments even in USA, UK, France ........USSR); or opposite raise France NU to a good level; but doing so will yield almost nothing in research, and said player must avoid war.

    So yes NU is fake (no direct meaning IRL; but a symbolic one). Untill recently, Germany it self was without meaning IRL (untill the end of WWII infact); but still people there defined themself (and that for the previous 1 000 years) as GErmans (and NOT as wuttembergians or saxonischen). Maybe hard to grasp for young anglo saxons people, because you were not raise with such symbols to deal with.

    By the way , sorry to have been a bit pedantic!
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  8. #28
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Too much caffeine i think, but A for effort!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Too much caffeine i think, but A for effort!
    Care to explain?

    or

    HAve you at one moment ever imagine you simply got it totally wrong (the meaning of NU as defined by Paradox)?

    Notice I did understood I was going close to the border line and so people might not really link my exemple with NU (so my apologises for being pedantic), I even dare to be not certain my understanding is the correct one. My idea is mostly backed up by historical knowledge, cultural assumption, and professional knowledge (being an ingenior in IT).

    Instead of supposing the amount of caffeine I drink (usually 5 liters a day, by at that moment I haveonly drink 2 liters, as it is noon in Phuket), maybe more arguments would be great.

    Your reflexion is akin to those done by kiddies on other places, and could be understood by anglo saxon people as outrageous (being french I do not react that way, but usually is waiting for discussions with solid arguments). Maybe it is because for me it is just a game, with rules that I have to follow (same as in chess).
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  10. #30
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Your going way off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my original post. You obviously missed the whole meaning of the thread and to be honest i have no inclination at this time to run this thread off for another 10 pages in a useless manner. If your happy with the way it is, so am i. Have fun.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Your going way off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my original post. You obviously missed the whole meaning of the thread and to be honest i have no inclination at this time to run this thread off for another 10 pages in a useless manner. If your happy with the way it is, so am i. Have fun.
    Point taken, and agreed (about running the thread and go to flame war for 10 pages).

    On the other hand, maybe I shall rephrase my point :

    NU have a more global scope than a mere variable quantifying how fellow citizens of a country (whatever it is) love eachother and are ready to die for their beloved country. If only that, you would be right at 200%, and PI would have failed.

    Fact is NU represent more than that (I gave some exemples related to France, as that country is notoriosly underpowered in every game), to demonstrate without a low NU it would be impossible (or ridiculous) to simulate the rapide colapse of May 1940.

    No offense intended, neither personal attack; but you are like my boss (a man I do respect, but still...) who sometimes forget the big picture and see only the small detail (in IT , that is more than a crime : a fault!). To keep France as exemple, you can raise NU form 01.01.1936; and avoid the rapid collapse; but it will have a cost with regards to other domain. So globally, the NU is good variable; while ponctually (as you rightly demonstrated) it may be a total 'screw up'.

    Sorry to be verbous, but I just returned to HOI3 (got FtM last week); so I am quite hot with it right now! Also, I do appreiate your last post, you demonstrate more maturity than many!
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  12. #32
    General nimrod123's Avatar
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    i think some people do need to remember it is a game, at the end of the day if it was a WW2 simulator people would not play it as axis because people would always whine if it diveated at all from history, and no one wants to lose.

    i think its better to think of the game as a ahistoric representation of the period at best, you can mod it to match your desires, but please don't do what the BF3 community is doing at the moment and destroy the game by complaining because one feature dosn't suit you playstyle.

  13. #33
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Nim i do agree with you. Dont misunderstand me, or maybe i simply dont make some posts clear. First off i 100% consider this a sandbox type ahistorical game. My issue only comes that as opposed to the many many games i play so much of this game you cant pin down. A means A over here but really A means B over here. C isnt really C it just looks like C it really means D etc... National Unity doesnt represent what you think it would, Manpower doesnt represent men etc... If the terms and their representatins were a bit more clear it would be easier. Also some more consistency across the board with different nations would be nice. It appears that the game was modified in all aspects to make it work but it is sort of thrown together sometimes so that you dont have a clear understanding of really what some things are.

    People say Manpower represents more then Manpower however in the rules their is no indication of that, in fact the game allows you to modify your manpower (laws, techs etc...) that leaves you to believe that manpower can only be manpower. If thats the case then the manpower ratios per nation are off, certain nations get bumped way up others get hammered way down, in order to make the game work. From the Rules;

    When Producing units, there is not only an economic demand but also a requirement to have sufficient Manpower to populate the unit. Manpower is generated as a Resource from every Controlled province, though there is less from
    conquered provinces than from your Owned provinces which you still Control. Overseas provinces, even if Owned, provide less Manpower than those on the same continent as your Capital. Manpower is considered a pool which can be used to
    produce units, and is thereafter “contained” by those units. However, units will also “leak” Manpower in terms of Attrition through routine turnover, or losses due to sickness or the environment. As such, each unit has a monthly demand on
    Manpower in the form of Reinforcements.Manpower is impacted by Mobilization and Conscription Laws.

    Players say that National Unity doesnt represent what you would believe it does so that the inconsistency between some nations shouldnt really be looked at, but by Paradox's own definitions that is not really true. By definition;
    National Unity is how a country commands support for its Policies and marshals Resources (mineral, military or Manpower) to its own defence. A disunited country is weak and vulnerable so, obviously, it is always better to be
    united. National Unity is affected by Government Decisions, War losses, and Strategic Warfare. Some Laws or Decisions may affect National Unity even though they’re not the “smart” choice – i.e. Soviet Purges create higher National Unity but
    hurt the country in some ways. Some Laws will negatively affect National Unity and/or Dissent. A country whose National Unity drops too low may suffer a Revolt, or it simply may see a change of Government through an Election. Naturally, a Party that has allowed the National Unity to fall so low is not likely to remain in power after an Election.

    I like the game as much as anyone and in many ways think they have done an outstanding job, but i feel entitled to discuss as many do the various shortcomings. We have purchased this game and its xpacs. I do not feel that because i respect the effort that went into game design that not only can it not be better but that i owe some undying loyalty to the designers anymore then if im not happy when i by a car or a food item. This game could be improved in many ways, and in many ways rather easily, in some ways much more difficulty would be required. We discuss the game like this and it has led to many positive changes done by the modders, not because we want to throw stones at the developers. I feel when i play this game like the rules and information cant be counted on and that the game is abstracted all over the place, like tiny little bandaids. If it was a football game it would be like each team gets different pts for a touchdown (3,6,8,11 etc) in order to balance the game out. And i dont really consider any game ever "balanced" even if it ends up somewhat historical, too many non historical things have happened.

    I play WOW the MMO and have since it was launched, and personally think they have ruined the game over the years in order to make more money (but that is a diff issue). I see the same thing here, many people discuss the games shortcomings and look/ask for change while others defend it to the death as it is Gods gift to humanity or that someone was insulting their mother.

    I myself welcome all posts, some i have no interest in, some i do, when i do i respond, but i assure you it is always in a clinical analysis of the game. Ill banter about with Happy and guys like Eric above, but i enjoy reading other peoples takes on the game and even hearing arguments against my arguments. All in all i think that makes the game better for all.

    As much as i credit the developers for their skill in putting the game together i think the modders deserve a ton of credit. I have played most of them, some i prefer more then others, but that is usually due to minor personal preferences, but they have done outstanding work on our behalf. Thx again guys!

  14. #34
    General nimrod123's Avatar
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    at the moment i'm just a bit worried about community input into the game itself, as i said above BF3 is getting the mother of all nerf patches because some people can't deal with the features of the game.

    it worries me because often the people that speak out are the minority because the majority are fine with the way things are. this means that if the developers respond to the so called community consensus they break the game for so many other people how where fine with it before.

    hence why i love modding, you can make the game play your way without making the original game broken for everyone else.

    thats just my opinion, i pefer my game to work reasonable well even if it means sacrificing some of the flavor (i look at you skyrim)

  15. #35
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    We all know that no games can exactly represent a given war, its impossible. And many times a company has to fudge stuff for various reasons, but also many times they simply do not get it right. I also look at how things are represented. I just like consistency. I like something to mean what it says. Now what i have seen lately that it isnt so much Paradox, as it is players interpreting terms wrong. National Unity is exactly what we all think it is. Based on that, Japans number is way too low, and some other numbers are off as well. Come out and say that it is off because thats the only way you could get them to capitulate with the A-bomb and no one will second guess it. Leave it hanging there like it is and it makes it look like they had no clue. Some people "assume" whatever they want or want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have had several people argue to the death over manpower, stating how it doesnt represent actual men but a variety of elements and it cant be quantified etc... thats all hogwash. All in their minds, as a way to make up for other issues. Sort of like telling a child "Its the way God wanted it" because you dont have the answer. Several areas Paradox clearly states that manpower is simply that, manpower. Nothing more nothing less.

    What are you afraid of as far as feedback? As long as the games sell, they will make them. I bought a ton of Paradox games, really disliked pretty much every one of them. I like this game best, however i look at it like its a sandbox game. Your afraid here, what could they do to make the game worse? If it were me i wouldnt focus so much on the really intricate technical aspects which some players love, and just try and get the basics refined better. that and add more events and decisions to flavor the game.

    Its not a knock on Paradox as it is community wide, it is impossible to make a AI to really challenge intelligent knowledgable players without the AI cheating (alot of games do this). I doubt, the game will ever be more challenging (maybe a tad), but they can get it more historical and accurate. I know thats not what you want and its only my opinion. Personally they have done alot more then i would have thought they could. They integrated diff units, weather, terrain, leadership, other modifiers all into combat and done a pretty nice job (however i dont like org so much, need more losses due to attrition and combat).

    I think with some tweaking it can become a better representative game of the time, without asking much more of the AI.

  16. #36
    General nimrod123's Avatar
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    its not that i fear community feedback, what i fear is the dev's taking the feedback as is. Just because someone says that something is wrong or unbalance doesn't mean that it needs to change if it serves its purpose (e.g. NU allows scenarios to play out somewhat historically while being something that can be chagned if the player want by the player)

    i do wish they would listen to this feedback

    make it possible to place supply nodes

    make resource stockpiles distribute in relation to long held IC (IC in your cores / held for more then 6 months) e.g. if you have 10 IC total and you lose 1 you also lose 10% of you total resource stockpile, preventing capital = pretty much screwed country

  17. #37
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Well that is a great idea and makes a ton of sense. Also allows you to target locations for just that purpose. As for me I try as best i can when evaluating a topic to be as clinical as possible and provide all the information as clearly and concisely as i can (although some still see only what they want to see). I think in many cases clarity is the best form of repair. For example what you said about NU above, well we all assume that to be the case, but there is no verification of that by Paradox. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but we have no basis to really form an opinion as they havent provided any clarification. If i go based on what they state, then i assume their numbers are off. I would prefer they simply named it differently. Sort of like the anschluss thing. Make a stupid event that says Germany gets a manpower buff of x amount due to blah blah blah i wouldnt care. tell me they gain austria and you can now make 50 new divisions because of the manpower when they really got 50k troops in all, its like ugghhh...

    I do like the nodes thing though, good thinking!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Well that is a great idea and makes a ton of sense. Also allows you to target locations for just that purpose. As for me I try as best i can when evaluating a topic to be as clinical as possible and provide all the information as clearly and concisely as i can (although some still see only what they want to see). I think in many cases clarity is the best form of repair. For example what you said about NU above, well we all assume that to be the case, but there is no verification of that by Paradox. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but we have no basis to really form an opinion as they havent provided any clarification. If i go based on what they state, then i assume their numbers are off. I would prefer they simply named it differently. Sort of like the anschluss thing. Make a stupid event that says Germany gets a manpower buff of x amount due to blah blah blah i wouldnt care. tell me they gain austria and you can now make 50 new divisions because of the manpower when they really got 50k troops in all, its like ugghhh...

    I do like the nodes thing though, good thinking!
    as long as the game doesn't crash like skyrim does after the patches i don't really care if it has some debatable features. also conchesoins have to be made for balance, i see your point about annexing austria but sometimes its a case of the lesser of two evils, i expect that if GER could reach that manpower without the annex it would make for some interesting prewar stuff if the player chose different research routes affecting manpower generation, i prefer how darkest hour handled it, just give germany some divisions and be done with it, not so much manpower but pre set stuff that has to be used in a more historic sense

  19. #39
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I dont care if they give them the manpower but dont give it in a way we know they didnt and then look at me like im dumb lol.....Make an event toss them some manpower and then boost their monthly growth and all is well. I havent tried Skyrim, i didnt like the concept about how each version of the game you were somewhere different or fighting something different. I still play wow, but basically hate it, they ruined it for the nubs to make $$$$

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