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Thread: Things that make you go hmmm....

  1. #81
    I still dont get it. Why have the monthly MP-gain, again?

    Say, in germany (1937 borders) there are 10,000,000 avaiable men (just giving a number), and that 1,000 equal roughly 1 MP (yeah, ´quality´ counts, too, but that is reflected by the units´ MP-requirements). So, that would mean, germany has 10,000 base-MP. Now, before Anschluss, or whatnot, they can only utlilizte 10% of it. The various events dismantling versailles, like remilitarization of the rhineland and the Anschluss of austria raise it by 5% each. Austrua obviously adds the austrain provinces to germany, as well, raising the base to say 12,000,000, out of which germany then can draw 20% (10% + 2*5%).

    Ideally, there would be a minimum of base-MP, defined by IC*tech_factor, going below which puts a malus on your industrial productivity.

  2. #82
    Colonel kezardinjnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    The following article (if valid) says about 50k

    http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=7
    Sounds about right. The Austrian units formed the basis of five wehrmacht divisions - 44th & 45th infantry, 2nd & 3rd mountain and 4th light.

  3. #83
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Ive seen 2 specific replies on this topic one said who cares where they get the manpower from its all the same...
    ....Ummm you've actually said that a few times.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Those of us who prefer the game as close as possible to the real period to provide more flavor do care, which is why this forum is alive and well. The other reply was it is only a game, it is playable, have fun. Again i say only those who are interested take issues with these things.
    Making the game better is an honorable and noble goal.

    Are you calling me a troll? If so I am rather hurt Oliver. Surely you don't expect people to agree with everything you say?

    James, who is obviously a somewhat intelligent and learned individual, with some poeple skills as well, has already pointed out that I have made more than one valid argument that makes some sense of the event and it's historical plausibility. Refusing to acknowledge other peoples perspectives and simply re-iterating one's own does not an enlightened nor necessarily correct perspective make.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Manring View Post
    [...]Wien for instance has manpower = 8.00. What does that translate to in a recruitment rate?
    It should translate to x base-MP, period, imho.

  5. #85
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Actually the problem wasnt so much the AI, they performed and defended themselves, the problem is there is no real attrition via combat. You dont lose manpower basically, you lose org. This allowed me to basically to keep attacking nation after nation with the same troops, which simply isnt realistic. Id attack year round, through winter and all and never really give them a rest. All of that is a problem.

    I believe when i quoted the 1/15th of the Germany army, the numbers i kept seeing was approx 1.2 austrians fought in WW2 out of 18 mil in the German Military. How many would be from the existing military, how many from the 16sh - 45sh manpower pool and how many through monthly increase would have to be analyzed out of the 1.2 to give you actual proper figures.

    Again keep in mind i dont expect it to be exact nor does pretty much anyone. I said keep it in the ballpark. We understand that in game design some things need to be sacrificed to make it work. Above i said 100, maybe a few more initially...plastic said he got 110 when disbanding. So were in the ballpark. Even if you brought it up to 150 no biggy....but 500 as opposed to 100ish is quite a noticable difference.

    The problem with trying to be factual with many of these issues is the whole game balance would be upset. The use of manpower as universal military element, not specific to any particular nation. The game has been designed so that if the end sort of works, it doesnt really matter all that came before it. Most of your minor nations have incorrect or unfair manpower issues, and yet you can "game" your way to conquering half the world. If you fix these issues without correctly buffing up the quality of the Majors military, then you may be able to take over the whole world as a minor....

    This ongoing discussion reminds me of the one we had on food. Where so many belive it is either included (it isnt) or is not important (it is) or simply do not want to be bothered with it (ok on that).

    Also a game can never be truly historical if you refuse to include elements because they offend people. If it happened, its history, if you do not include many of the issues then your game will never truly be historical but a nice sandboxey similar type. We play this game as Germany and never have to expand the resources (men, money and equipment) that they did in doing the things they did. Thats a nice bonus for players.

    The only reason this thread was actually started was (and this is for Cpl) this issue could have simply and easily been avoided and yes can be modded out now as simply.

  6. #86
    Captain chervois's Avatar

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    I have to agree with 21Oliver on this one. The only other solution would be to give Austria enough on-map MP to generate a pool of approx. 150-250 in a '36 start under peacetime laws.....thats about 15-20 extra on-map MP with volunteer army, less with a higher starting law.

    Then, you can give Germany the Austrian army and 150 MP to reinforce it, the extra on-map MP would give approx. 10? MP gain per month from Austria alone(w/SbyR). A similiar thing should be done for Czechoslovakia.

    Those are only rough estimates, someone really should do the math and then test it. Determine if Germany is better off with one large lump sum of MP early on, or, more divisons(w/ decent experience) with enough MP to reinforce them and a decent MP gain over a longer period to try and prevent it from running out by '42.

    I don't think I'm the only player who has added 500-1000 MP to Germany in '42 so they don't get steamrolled by the Soviets before I have a chance to liberate China(minus Manchukukuo) and finish off Japan, in that order. Imho, invading Tokyo and having VJ-day celebrations in July '42 and letting the Soviets enjoy VE-day celebrations in '43, that's no fun at all!

  7. #87
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Happy i am as wrong as often as the next man. But we arent debating Patton is better then Monty. I have shown you the numbers, i got them multiple times from multiple sources, those are the numbers. We have seen the games numbers. There is no disputing that they are off, way off. There is no perspective here. There are two opinions 1) they are def off and something should be done or 2) I could care less that they are off. Trying to find reasoning to justify it (when there are simple alternatives that arent blatanly obvious are available) is simply trolling. But i commend you on the effort!

  8. #88
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I can understand when people just dont care about certain aspects of the game, we all have our favorite topics and our least favorite. But i would never argue with a factual reference that it does not exist. who does that? were not 10. Austria didnt have that kind of manpower available for themselves at that time much less anyone else. end of story. This is not a topic that should elicit arguments, the info is there its pretty much a done deal. Now how and whether or not to apply it to the game and its effects, thats a diff story.

    You cant fix one without others. Czechoslovakias situation is pathetic, they cant even mobilize they dont have enough manpower. I had posts about a year ago when happy and others went ballistic about how bad Turkeys situation is. You shouldnt have to delete all your forces to be able to field a representative army of militia. The mods have addressed some of these but not all.

  9. #89
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Look how these key issues and their presence or lack thereof have affected this game as a whole;

    1) There are issues the game wont touch as they are offensive. As if nuking nations isnt. There absence frees up enormous manpower and resources for certain nations. All nations do not have the same occupation policies in history.
    2) Food isnt reall present. Supplies cant be considered food. The value of nations that grew food in WW2 is enormous. The trade impact it would have or the value of the land in conquest would be huge.
    3) Money essentially has little or no value. You do not need it to proceed basically.
    4) There is no real impact on your society by stripping it of all its manpower. Consumer Goods system isnt enough. If you had a manpower base, and your economy and military factories required manpower (and money) to operate or they would do so at reduced effectiveness. I dont know why but i often have IC running at max capacity even though im missing resources it says i need to have to operate, so that doesnt work well either.
    5) Manpower/Military units are considered equal prior to buffing rather then each nation having its own fighting ratings (see the Dupuy references in a bove posts). Does anyone really think if in 1938 you formed a division of Germans and a division of soldiers from say Siam, equipped them similarly and gave them officers they would be equal? The historical, demographic, national elements that go into their very upbringing would make this not so.

    So other then revamping the entire game it would probably just be easier to give Germany 125 manpower from Ancshluss and then bump them up from Lets fight events. Your already giving them 250 manpower from the Rhineland which they shouldnt get (re-militarizing is not re-occupying).

    This game is a bunch of dominoes lined up, hard to touch one without them all going over.

  10. #90
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyman40 View Post
    James, who is obviously a somewhat intelligent and learned individual, with some poeple skills as well, has already pointed out that I have made more than one valid argument that makes some sense of the event and it's historical plausibility.
    You are the first person in my life to accuse me of actually having people skills! I am not sure what to make of this.

  11. #91
    Field Marshal grommile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    1) There are issues the game wont touch as they are offensive. As if nuking nations isnt.
    Given what "Strategic Bombing" actually means (consider Hamburg, Dresden, Coventry, and Tokyo), it's not clear that dropping 20-kiloton nukes is materially more offensive.
    If you think someone's trolling, PM a moderator.

    Ask your quick modding questions in the appropriate place

  12. #92
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Country_statisticsHere is some info for everyone to digest, im not evaluating it in anyway just tossing it out there so we can try and see some of the thought process. Take it with a grain of salt, the Pop info is from a statistical survey of WW2 by John Ellis, its basically the pop between 1937-1939 roughly. The game info is based on i believe SF, not sure if they changed any of the manpower stats after SF in FTM. But the link is;

    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Country_statistics

    NATION Pop pre WW2 Manpower at start in SF
    Norway 3.0 mil 8.0
    Bulgaria 6.0 11.0
    Romania 20.0 19.0
    France 42.0 82.0
    United Kingdom 48.0 204.0
    Germany 78.0 18.0
    USA 129.0 16.0
    USSR 194.0 30.0
    Nat China 450.0 14.0

    It occured to me that i often hear (from players not Paradox) that manpower represents many elements other then actually just men. But what are those elements? I mean the game has included various govt policies, techs, leadership modifiers etc... what else is it supposed to include? I think thats essentially a cover so that the numbers cant be disputed. I rem games that used to say "a unit of manpower" but never actually assign a figure to it. If the game didnt include the above elements that effect and modify manpower then i think it would fly better. If the manpower numbers were an overall result of a variety of elements including the techs, policies, leadership etc.. we couldnt actually quantify it. hmmmmm

  13. #93
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Happy i am as wrong as often as the next man. But we arent debating Patton is better then Monty. I have shown you the numbers, i got them multiple times from multiple sources, those are the numbers. We have seen the games numbers. There is no disputing that they are off, way off. There is no perspective here. There are two opinions 1) they are def off and something should be done or 2) I could care less that they are off. Trying to find reasoning to justify it (when there are simple alternatives that arent blatanly obvious are available) is simply trolling. But i commend you on the effort!
    I take offense at being called a troll and it's an inflamatory acusation against forum rules.

    Labeling someone a troll is also simply a way to deflect attention from, and try to debase, my point without addressing it directly which you still haven't. Three people in one thread making same point does not make me a troll. Your fellow country man, that came to your defense in a mediating / amabasador role was able to make sense of the different way of looking at it - it seems you are the only one that isn't able step back see the forest.

    IF all you see and will accept is raw numbers with no other thought as to how they might make sense then yes, you are right, the numbers are way off.

    I haven't tried to argue rawnumbers because "IT"S ALL ABOUT PERSPECTIVE" I have tried to give a plausible explanation for the amount in the event and others have made similar observations.

    What would happen if.........you thought for second...............the game designers in trying to make the game historically accurate had to limit a German army (both human or AI controlled) before a certain date - and then ......within the confines of the game code and mechanics.......had to then allow the creation of a force of a certain size. Historically, Hitler goes, "OMFG...the Allies didn't declare war. Well, I'm gonna really go for it now"...and Wala...he damands a massive increase in the armed forces.

    So the game designers choose to add 500MP to that event. You've already said you agreed with james and don't dispute that MP has many factors and that you don't care how germany gets the MP as long as it isn't in a 500MP dump at Anchluss. So all we are really debating is whether Germany could have plausibly drawn an extra chunk of MP from the population in a sweeping act of Hitlers hand or over time.

  14. #94
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Grom - War is offensive by its nature. And i understand that there are legalities involved that motivate companies. But there are always ways around it. If it was my game to design Germany and Japan for example would have their own occupation policies, and they would be harsher and more expensive to operate. Done, without being specific.

  15. #95
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I apologize for offending you Happy. no we arent debating whether Germany could have plausibly drawn more MP from austria, because we both have seen the numbers and no that they absolutely couldnt have. We are debating whether anyone other then myself would simply prefer to see it handed to Germany (just as easily done as the anschluss) in a different form.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Manring View Post
    That is disappointingly low. I don't think anyone wants to only get a single shot of 25MP even if we give them 15MP a month after that from Austria.

    Calculated? You mean in game? Was that with service_by_requirement or did you let people "retire" from the manpower pool? When we are balancing this I believe we need to do it under the war time service_by_requirement policy if we are going to start talking about changing provincial history levels.

    Wien for instance has manpower = 8.00. What does that translate to in a recruitment rate?
    I have run Austria from 1936 to March 1938. It starts with 0.4 MP a month. I have increased Agriculture from 1918 to 1938. At the end I was getting 0.6. In March 1938, I had 110 MP (after disbanding all forces) I chose war and with the Service by Requirement I was getting 2.5 a month. So it would give approximately 180-200 MP from 1938 to 1945. We have to note that the war starts from September 1939.

    Therefore if we lower one off gain MP gain to 110 MP (all Austria's available MP) then we have to increase Austria's base MP by 2.5 - 3 times in order to make it historically accurate.

  17. #97
    About this PR-debate, i just like to mention that i find it much more doubtable to entirely leave certain things out of a WW2-game and never even mention them, when it has a certain amount of detail just right next to these aspects, as this comes quite close to denying that those things ever happenend. Tabooing something is one of the most effecient ways to make it as if that something never occured. Now, i am not saying that such things should neccesarily have their place in the game-mechanics, but otherwise existing mechanics should not go out of their way in order not to hint to them. Also, a disclaimer, maybe instead of martial intro-pics, explicitely mentioning all the suffering caused by the war and related ´actions´ in the timeframe - sort of a digital memorial, instead of tabooing stuff, would be much more appropriate, imho, or at least one mentioning that those things were left out of the game as a design-decision, with no intent to deny the huge civiliian suffering during the timeframe, as it happend in real life. Leave a page blank in the beginning of the manual, and say it´s for the victims of... well, what may not be mentioned, here. PI should be ´offensive´ (ly communicating) about these facts, not try to hide them. ´Lest we forget´, or how does it go? (yesterday, germany was collectively memorizing the liberation of auschwitz, btw., with half-high flags and all that)

    I might have breached forum rules here, but i am risking it, anyways. We germans have a special obligation to say these things, esp. when it might be forbidden to do so.

  18. #98
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    I apologize for offending you Happy. no we arent debating whether Germany could have plausibly drawn more MP from austria, because we both have seen the numbers and no that they absolutely couldnt have. We are debating whether anyone other then myself would simply prefer to see it handed to Germany (just as easily done as the anschluss) in a different form.
    Accepted - I am now going to talk to some Kookaburras

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Country_statisticsHere is some info for everyone to digest, im not evaluating it in anyway just tossing it out there so we can try and see some of the thought process. Take it with a grain of salt, the Pop info is from a statistical survey of WW2 by John Ellis, its basically the pop between 1937-1939 roughly. The game info is based on i believe SF, not sure if they changed any of the manpower stats after SF in FTM. But the link is;

    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Country_statistics
    Numbers are wrong

    NATION Pop pre WW2 Manpower at start in SF
    Norway 3.0 mil 8.0
    Bulgaria 6.0 11.0
    Romania 20.0 19.0
    France 42.0 82.0
    United Kingdom 48.0 204.0
    Germany 78.0 59.0
    USA 129.0 142.0
    USSR 194.0 226.0
    Nat China 450.0 122.0

    Now the UK and France MP includes colonies and your numbers don't.

    In 1938 Germany had 69 mil.

  20. #100
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Which numbers are wrong exactly? anyway i just wrote them as i read them. The German numbers include a supposed 10 mil from Austria and Czech... I did so simply so we could see as a reference how many MP per million pop each nation was given in HOI3.

    Jaz I have known a variety of people who suffered and have known suffering during the period surrounding WW2. I in no way ever intend to dismiss or reduce the suffering caused by and to others. I am a former Police Officer i tend to view things in issues like this at face value. War is horrible, we enjoy studying it each for our own reasons, but none for the horror. I dont believe personally that these games should in anyway glorify those horrors, but if, and i say if a game's goal is to be as historically accurate as possible, and those horrors as in the case of WW2 were of signifcant importance, they should be in some manner be represented, albeit in an abstract way.

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