Things that make you go hmmm....

[21oliver]

Kookaburras??? enlighten us Happy pls!

[mnplastic]

Which numbers are wrong exactly? anyway i just wrote them as i read them. The German numbers include a supposed 10 mil from Austria and Czech... I did so simply so we could see as a reference how many MP per million pop each nation was given in HOI3.

All game numbers below United Kingdom were incorrect.

[21oliver]

well like i said i took them off the wow wiki page i believe it was based on SF. It was just to give people reference info to compare. I doubt that anyones numbers are ever correct anyway. A census is a pretty innacurate thing. The thing that struck me as interesting is the game has a variety of elements that modify manpower, so how come raw manpower totals dont simply represent just manpower. What else is included? Anyone know for a fact anything else? or simply have opinions? I would think you wouldnt have to modify it at all if it included these additional elements. hmmm

[mnplastic]

well like i said i took them off the wow wiki page i believe it was based on SF. It was just to give people reference info to compare. I doubt that anyones numbers are ever correct anyway. A census is a pretty innacurate thing. The thing that struck me as interesting is the game has a variety of elements that modify manpower, so how come raw manpower totals dont simply represent just manpower. What else is included? Anyone know for a fact anything else? or simply have opinions? I would think you wouldnt have to modify it at all if it included these additional elements. hmmm

I took them from the same Wiki. You just entered wrong numbers

[21oliver]

ohhhhh my bad. TY!

[kezardinjnr]

We are debating whether anyone other then myself would simply prefer to see it handed to Germany (just as easily done as the anschluss) in a different form.

Give Germany the historical divisions - 2 infantry, 2 mountain, 1 panzer, plus a small amount of manpower (25 for example). If the divisions appear as reserves, then add in sufficient manpower to build them up to full strength.

[comsubpac]

Give Germany the historical divisions - 2 infantry, 2 mountain, 1 panzer, plus a small amount of manpower (25 for example). If the divisions appear as reserves, then add in sufficient manpower to build them up to full strength.

but then you have to reduce the manpower of the german enemies. especially france...
sure, it would be more "historical" but then you have to give france a far bigger and better equipped army then germany in 1939. manpower is just a value used for balancing like leadership, resources... it isn't "historical" and it can't be and it doesn't try to be.

try it. just remove the manpower added via event and start a hands off game. germany would lose against france or even poland. the values might be better but the outcome would be worse.

[kezardinjnr]

but then you have to reduce the manpower of the german enemies. especially france...
sure, it would be more "historical" but then you have to give france a far bigger and better equipped army then germany in 1939. manpower is just a value used for balancing like leadership, resources... it isn't "historical" and it can't be and it doesn't try to be.

try it. just remove the manpower added via event and start a hands off game. germany would lose against france or even poland. the values might be better but the outcome would be worse.

C, I agree with you. It's virtually impossible to change any aspect of the game without having flow on effects elsewhere.

It was a suggestion for 'a different form' of Anschluss.

The problems it might raise would be for another thread

[21oliver]

Nobodys saying that.....just instead of "Germany gets 500 manpower from the Anschluss of Austria" make it "Germany gets 500 manpower from citizens who have repatrioted back home", at least that would have a small chance to be factual, the former doesnt.

Why give them 500? Why not make it 5000? I mean if were going to be incorrect lets go all the way. What exactly is manpower then. We know it has nothing to do with Govt or laws or training or anything like that because those elements are in the game to adjust the manpower. So what exactly is it?

Anyway as i said you really cannot change the figure without changing most of the game, but you can change how its presented. Again if you favor historical accuracy youd prefer it to be more abstract, like the events that pop up to add flavor and randomness to the game, where it cant really 100% be disputed as opposed to in a place where it is obviously out of place. If you dont care about historical accuracy then none of this thread matters to you at all.

If Germany would lose to France or Poland why exactly is that. Are their MP numbers correct at the start and Germany's is low so it needs a boost? And if so then why? Statistics show that Germany had 69 mil and added 10 mil incl Austria and Czech, so they only added one per 7. The same period at least the reference i have at hand shows Poland at about 35 mil or roughly half of what Germany has prior to gaining Austria and Czech. Why would or could Germany ever lose to Poland, especially with all the buffs its leadership will provide, its Officers and twice the population. If Germany loses to Poland without those manpower increases then the game has some bigger things wrong with it....

[comsubpac]

Nobodys saying that.....just instead of "Germany gets 500 manpower from the Anschluss of Austria" make it "Germany gets 500 manpower from citizens who have repatrioted back home", at least that would have a small chance to be factual, the former doesnt.

Why give them 500? Why not make it 5000? I mean if were going to be incorrect lets go all the way. What exactly is manpower then. We know it has nothing to do with Govt or laws or training or anything like that because those elements are in the game to adjust the manpower. So what exactly is it?

Anyway as i said you really cannot change the figure without changing most of the game, but you can change how its presented. Again if you favor historical accuracy youd prefer it to be more abstract, like the events that pop up to add flavor and randomness to the game, where it cant really 100% be disputed as opposed to in a place where it is obviously out of place. If you dont care about historical accuracy then none of this thread matters to you at all.

If Germany would lose to France or Poland why exactly is that. Are their MP numbers correct at the start and Germany's is low so it needs a boost? And if so then why? Statistics show that Germany had 69 mil and added 10 mil incl Austria and Czech, so they only added one per 7. The same period at least the reference i have at hand shows Poland at about 35 mil or roughly half of what Germany has prior to gaining Austria and Czech. Why would or could Germany ever lose to Poland, especially with all the buffs its leadership will provide, its Officers and twice the population. If Germany loses to Poland without those manpower increases then the game has some bigger things wrong with it....

does 1 manpower represent anything historical anyway? are it really 1000 men? no. as i said several times it is just a number like every other number. what austria was or wan't in history is compeltely irrelevant. it is like counting historical divisions. a division ingame has nothing whatsoever to do with a historical division and manpower is just one part of it.
if germany would need 5000 manpwer instrad of 500 to beat france it would and should get them. does leadership represent anything realistic? does energy do so? money? here is more a misunderstanding how games work and what those numbers represent or actually do. i find it funny how we can have a thread over six pages discussing something that has absolutely no meaning for the game anyway.

[21oliver]

I dont disagree with you on the manpower, i think Paradox has no definition of it, like many games dont, they use it as a means to get to an end, and its different for every nation. However we can apply it in game terms as a tangible vital resource. We know that historically nor in game is it in any way shape possible to for Germany to get 500 manpower out of a nation that in game can only raise 100+ after much effort, regardless of the actual tangible value of whatever manpower is. It is almost insulting to an intelligent person to have anyone argue the opposite.

Now that being done, if Germany needs the manpower and we have no choice under the circumstances due to how the game has been formed, all i said was why not make it more abstract like the other events. If you dont care, which you have stated you dont, then it doesnt really concern you. Those who do care about historical accuracy, at least to some degree have discussed alternatives, and some others have chosen to ignore the facts and tried to justify it.

The beauty of a forum such as this is that we dont have to get involved with nor continue in any posts/threads we have little interest in.

I am surprised though Com i recall on more then a few occasions you were against proposed issues because they werent historical. In fact you even promote your own pack of historical events. Are they accurate or simply made up? Did you try and be factual and historical or didnt you care?

Germany adds 250, 500 and 300 manpower from 3 events (rhine, Anschluss and treaty of munich)that they have no business getting it from, thats roughly 100 divisions of manpower. Why not just give them spaceships while we are at it?

As so many have referred to how easy it would be to mod this and fix it, my question is why was it done in the first place, that way. All this info is available all over. Just give Germany the freakin manpower, no need to insult amateur historians along the way.

[comsubpac]

I dont disagree with you on the manpower, i think Paradox has no definition of it, like many games dont, they use it as a means to get to an end, and its different for every nation. However we can apply it in game terms as a tangible vital resource. We know that historically nor in game is it in any way shape possible to for Germany to get 500 manpower out of a nation that in game can only raise 100+ after much effort, regardless of the actual tangible value of whatever manpower is. It is almost insulting to an intelligent person to have anyone argue the opposite.

Now that being done, if Germany needs the manpower and we have no choice under the circumstances due to how the game has been formed, all i said was why not make it more abstract like the other events. If you dont care, which you have stated you dont, then it doesnt really concern you. Those who do care about historical accuracy, at least to some degree have discussed alternatives, and some others have chosen to ignore the facts and tried to justify it.

The beauty of a forum such as this is that we dont have to get involved with nor continue in any posts/threads we have little interest in.

I am surprised though Com i recall on more then a few occasions you were against proposed issues because they werent historical. In fact you even promote your own pack of historical events. Are they accurate or simply made up? Did you try and be factual and historical or didnt you care?

Germany adds 250, 500 and 300 manpower from 3 events (rhine, Anschluss and treaty of munich)that they have no business getting it from, thats roughly 100 divisions of manpower. Why not just give them spaceships while we are at it?

As so many have referred to how easy it would be to mod this and fix it, my question is why was it done in the first place, that way. All this info is available all over. Just give Germany the freakin manpower, no need to insult amateur historians along the way.

how can a random number that is not historical in anyway insult you? does the energy value insult you? the leadership? the way divisions are represented? germany doesn't get spaceships all it gets is a "resource" it needs to ensure roughly historical outcomes. this resource is called "manpower" it could be "bananas" or "gold" it still would be just a number.

[21oliver]

answer the following and lets see...

1) Do you prefer HOI3 whenever possible to be MORE historical or LESS historical or you dont care?

2) Do you believe yes or no that Germany by way of (remilitarizing, not re-occupying the rhineland / Anschluss of Austria and the Treaty of munich, not including the First Vienna award) gained roughly 100 fighting divisions?

If you want a more historical game and you agree that Germany did not gain that many divisions from those events then why would you be opposed to a change in the event(s) that they gain their manpower in game so long as nothing else changes?

If you dont want a more historical game or really dont care, then why would you even bother to respond and why would you create an event pack that you advertise as historical. Why not just make some fun interesting non historical events.

Or perhaps its simply because i made the post you continuosly reach for ways to try and oppose my views no matter how it sounds?

When i used to discuss various issues concerning minor nations you were often quick to point out how it wouldnt be historical in your view and now you suddenly do not seem interested in whether the events are historical or not and yet you have taken much time and effort to create a historical events pack. So confusing....

[comsubpac]

answer the following and lets see...

1) Do you prefer HOI3 whenever possible to be MORE historical or LESS historical or you dont care?

2) Do you believe yes or no that Germany by way of (remilitarizing, not re-occupying the rhineland / Anschluss of Austria and the Treaty of munich, not including the First Vienna award) gained roughly 100 fighting divisions?

If you want a more historical game and you agree that Germany did not gain that many divisions from those events then why would you be opposed to a change in the event(s) that they gain their manpower in game so long as nothing else changes?

If you dont want a more historical game or really dont care, then why would you even bother to respond and why would you create an event pack that you advertise as historical. Why not just make some fun interesting non historical events.

Or perhaps its simply because i made the post you continuosly reach for ways to try and oppose my views no matter how it sounds?

When i used to discuss various issues concerning minor nations you were often quick to point out how it wouldnt be historical in your view and now you suddenly do not seem interested in whether the events are historical or not and yet you have taken much time and effort to create a historical events pack. So confusing....

1) can manpower be historical or is it intended to be historical? no.
2) have ingame divisions and division manpower anything to to with history? no.
conclusion: the value can never be historical so discussing it is useless anyway,...

my events are historical because they did happen (as far as it can be represented in the game). a manpower value isn't...
as i already said. remove 1000 manpower from germany and see what happens in a hands of game. that is all that matters.

[21oliver]

as always you deftly avoid the true questions and answers and with each post here you validate my position. Thank you Com.

[Corugi]

The Imperial Might of the Holy Corugian Empire agrees with Oliver.

That means he must be right.

This 500 manpower thingy does not make sense. Neither historically, or for that matter, according to any internal sense of game logic.

[comsubpac]

as always you deftly avoid the true questions and answers and with each post here you validate my position. Thank you Com.

ans where do you answer the only question that matter? can manpower be historical or is it just a random number like every other resource?

actually i did answer your questions but i make it clearer for you:
1) yes, the game should be historical were it is possible. since manpower is not and cannot be historical it doesn't matter.
2) no, germany most likely could not have gained 10 divisions most likely they did get more.
1933 germany had 6500000 people. 1939 they had 80000000. so they gained 15000000. that is roughly 1/5 of the germans gained through annexation. germany did field over 300 divisions. since you like numbers so much do the math yourself... so did get far more then 10 divisions from austria alone... (the manpower for around 60 divisions would be more accurate) but then again manpower ingame has nothing to do with real life numbers.

The Imperial Might of the Holy Corugian Empire agrees with Oliver.

That means he must be right.

This 500 manpower thingy does not make sense. Neither historically, or for that matter, according to any internal sense of game logic.

the only reason values like manpower exist is to balance the game. germany need more manpower to beat its enemies and so it receives manpower. that is all manpower does. in game logic terms it makes perfect sense and even historically it is not that wrong. germany did get manpower by annexing more territory and so they do ingame. since you can't compare ingame numbers wit real life numbers it is fine because it doesn't matter how much they receive as long as the outcome is right. AI germany beats france and poland and that is basically the only goal.

[21oliver]

<Bows to the wisdom of the Imperial Holy Corugian Empire>.

[21oliver]

I think when you make your posts you take the previous posts and rip them all up like a puzzle and then throw bits and pieces together, so ill do it for you.

1) IF and i say IF you like the game to be historical IF possible.....

2) and IF you acknowledge that the information available world wide anywhere that Germany did not gain 100 divisions worth of manpower from the 3 events in question

3) Then you agree that it would be better to add them via an alternative IF available then to say they got it from the Anschluss (Rhine remilitarized and Treaty of munich)

any disagreeing to that means you cant add 1+1+1 and get 3.

You keep talking like manpower is some abstract element that cant be quantified. It surely can it turns in military divisions. The three events above give Germany roughly 100 divisions, while at peace, between 1936-1938. As i said before the more posts you get the more people i hear from. Please say more

[comsubpac]

I think when you make your posts you take the previous posts and rip them all up like a puzzle and then throw bits and pieces together, so ill do it for you.

1) IF and i say IF you like the game to be historical IF possible.....

2) and IF you acknowledge that the information available world wide anywhere that Germany did not gain 100 divisions worth of manpower from the 3 events in question

3) Then you agree that it would be better to add them via an alternative IF available then to say they got it from the Anschluss (Rhine remilitarized and Treaty of munich)

any disagreeing to that means you cant add 1+1+1 and get 3.

You keep talking like manpower is some abstract element that cant be quantified. It surely can it turns in military divisions. The three events above give Germany roughly 100 divisions, while at peace, between 1936-1938. As i said before the more posts you get the more people i hear from. Please say more

are you still discussing or have you once again switched to insulting?
i explained what all the resources do (manpower is just one of those) and that is balancing the game and they have nothing to do with history. ingame divisions and ingame manpower also have nothing to do with history. it is the same with national unity. you just don't understand what it does and what it represents in the game.
tell us what exact number would work for you and why and how the game would still work. apparently you can't because they are necessary the way they are at the moment. again, just try i could even write an event for you...

########################
# Anschluss of Austria #
########################
# Austria - Reaction event
country_event = {

	id = 1101
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	title = "EVTNAME1101"
	desc = "EVTDESC1101"
	picture = "anchsluss"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA1101"			# Become a part of the Greater Reich
		ai_chance = { factor = 100 }
		GER = { country_event = 1102 }
		#GER = { split_troops = 1.0 }
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB1101"			# Join the Axis
		join_faction = axis
		military_access = GER
		dissent = 10
		relation = { who = ITA value = 15 }
		head_of_state = 23050
		head_of_government = 23060
		foreign_minister = 23071
		armament_minister = 23085
		minister_of_security = 11189
		minister_of_intelligence = 23096
		chief_of_staff = 23106
		chief_of_army = 23117
		chief_of_navy = 23125
		chief_of_air = 23010
		GER = { country_event = 1103 }
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTC1101"			# Austria shall remain independent
		dissent = 40
		relation = { who = GER value = -125 }
		relation = { who = ITA value = 15 }
		relation = { who = ENG value = 5 }
		relation = { who = FRA value = 5 }
		AUS = {	war = {	target = GER } }
		GER = { country_event = 1104 }
	}
}

# Response to Germany - Annexation
country_event = {

	id = 1102
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	title = "EVTNAME1102"
	desc = "EVTDESC1102"
	picture = "anchsluss"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA1102"			# Good
		inherit = AUS
		manpower = -350
	}
}

# Response to Germany - Alliance
country_event = {

	id = 1103
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	title = "EVTNAME1103"
	desc = "EVTDESC1103"
	picture = "Austria_Alliance"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA1103"			# Ok
		relation = { who = AUS value = 100 }
		military_access = AUS
	}
}

# Response to Germany - War
country_event = {

	id = 1104
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	title = "EVTNAME1104"
	desc = "EVTDESC1104"
	picture = "anchsluss"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA1104"			# War it is then
	}
}

just replace the AnschlussOfAustria event and start a hands off game...