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Thread: Things that make you go hmmm....

  1. #61
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyman40
    Germany needs to be able to field a significant force of troops after Anchluss - prior to this and the Rhineland events Germany was fearful of Allied intervention that would have been incited by a growing German Military - makes perfect sense that the player then gets 500 more MP to then build units that previously, for game play reasons shouldn't have been allowed.
    I have one more point to make. If you give 500 MP to GER upon the Anschluss because of reasoning related to anything other than Austria itself then if the player does not decide to annex Austria he does not get the MP boost for those ulterior reasons. My example of the ulterior reasons being the expiry of Versailles, which would also alleviated some fear of allied intervention upon re-building the military and as you said they should not be able to build many units before its expiry.

    It does make sense, as you say, that the Nazis were emboldened by Appeasement. I think that should not be the only way to get the MP boost related to all of the social factors. Appeasement does, however justify the MP from the Anschluss being higher than the available MP from Austria indicates. I hope that everyone can agree to that part.

    I would like to see a way for a player that does not violate Versailles to still obtain a manpower growth rate bonus upon the expiry that will enable Germany to fight the war. That should be the patriotic spirit at work. The manpower absorbed from Austria and the Rhineland should be the amount of the military power in Austria, plus extra for the emboldened new Nazi laws grabbing more of the free men in that region.

    In short, I think what I am saying is that the new Nazi laws for all of Germany (be it enacted upon anschluss or upon expiry of versailles) should be represented by a growth rate bonus instead of a chunk of men related to only Austria. If anything to simulate the recruitment of paramilitary troops to circumvent the Versailles treaty and hide troop numbers, thus making the manpower much more available for usage in the SS or Wehrmacht it self.
    Last edited by James_Manring; 28-01-2012 at 06:34.

  2. #62
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    Agreed - very sound and astute reasoning James.

    Not sure to what extent it works likes this at the moment - but the MP / Military growth should combine with belligerent actions to accelerate Nutrality loss / threat gain to other nations or some mechanic related to threat.

  3. #63
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I think James's posts were outstanding and pretty much on point and not a simple quick response, so clap clap. Thank you. As far as Happy goes, yes sometimes i over simplifiy. Ill give you my take, and again its my take. Everything James said basically...I am not arguing the manpower increases, just the source as it insults my intelligence. They could just as easily give the boost from a source were we couldnt definitely dispute it, and we'd all move on. I wont disagree that MP isnt just population, but many factors. However in my opinion, it is Primarily Population with a degree of change in either direction, not a massive difference. It would in any case get shrunk not increased. I think saying it covers many elements is a way for game designers to basically fudge it up because they simply no its not accurate and dont want to be called on it.

    Whatever the actual make up of Manpower, it could never be more then a nation had as an available pool, only less. Lets say Austria has 100 manpower capable of fighting. If they conscript their military wont they get the same amount of soldiers to come forward as Germany would? And if they got less, how many less? 5? 10? 15? surely not 80 or 90 less. Now maybe they wouldnt have the same training, equipment or even fervor to fight for austria then Germany, but that would be addressed differently.

    In short you cant a single sweep give Germany 500 manpower while un mobilized from a nation that couldnt raise 500 manpower over the course of the whole war. Give it to them in other ways if need be. And Happy knows i love him (and his roos too)!

  4. #64
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    I think James's posts were outstanding and pretty much on point and not a simple quick response, so clap clap. Thank you. As far as Happy goes, yes sometimes i over simplifiy. Ill give you my take, and again its my take. Everything James said basically...I am not arguing the manpower increases, just the source as it insults my intelligence. They could just as easily give the boost from a source were we couldnt definitely dispute it, and we'd all move on. I wont disagree that MP isnt just population, but many factors. However in my opinion, it is Primarily Population with a degree of change in either direction, not a massive difference. It would in any case get shrunk not increased. I think saying it covers many elements is a way for game designers to basically fudge it up because they simply no its not accurate and dont want to be called on it.

    Whatever the actual make up of Manpower, it could never be more then a nation had as an available pool, only less. Lets say Austria has 100 manpower capable of fighting. If they conscript their military wont they get the same amount of soldiers to come forward as Germany would? And if they got less, how many less? 5? 10? 15? surely not 80 or 90 less. Now maybe they wouldnt have the same training, equipment or even fervor to fight for austria then Germany, but that would be addressed differently.

    In short you cant a single sweep give Germany 500 manpower while un mobilized from a nation that couldnt raise 500 manpower over the course of the whole war. Give it to them in other ways if need be. And Happy knows i love him (and his roos too)!
    Well you say you agree with me, but then you think that Austria should give even less than their available manpower. Does that mean you disagree with the idea that the Nazis were emboldened by the Anschluss and thus enact stronger conscription laws not only in Germany, but much stronger in Austria than Austria could have spent political capital to do on their own?

    This gap between Austrian and Nazi laws is what the manpower increase above 100 should be about in your example. I do believe that they would draft many men that previously thought they were ineligible and for a longer period. This would give immediate results. We have to remember that this was a time coming down from the great depression and unemployment was high. I think it is realistic to say they get 120 - 150 MP taking that factor into account.

    In order to make this realistic and functional we might need to add another event for when the Versailles treaty expires that gives a little chunk of manpower. We can call that manpower from the paramilitary and special police groups being made official.

    Of course, then again, some were still hidden as much as possible until war with Poland weren't they? I suppose later paramilitary would better be represented as militia units given for free by loading an oob upon war. What do you guys think? I like it because you can still upgrade the militia to regulars if you want to and that provides some realism. I like having early paramilitary simulated as manpower boost so you can use that for production queue.

    Edit: sorry for editing my posts so much. I stop when someone has posted a reply, but until then I like to go back and fix things or add to my thoughts if I have more.
    Last edited by James_Manring; 28-01-2012 at 08:19.

  5. #65
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Ok i wasnt clear. What i mean is every nation has an available manpower pool (healthy males between certain ages). Under no circumstance could any event or individual RAIS more then the available. Some may get less. Perhaps Austria has 100 MP available and Germany can get all of it but Austria could only get 85 of it is my point. But under no circumstances could Germany get 500 if there was only 100 available to get. See?

    Lets put aside all the special circumstances, ideologies, conditions etc for one minute. Austria begins HOI3 with a MP pool of like 54 or 55 i think, with a monthly increase of 0.6. Now if you played them and deleted all your units and reformed as Militia and spent the entire game alive and well and got all the MP bonuses the game has to offer how many MP could you reasonably end up with in total? 200? 300? 400? 100??? Germany is given 500 MP simply by crossing the border. Where did all these men come from? were they hidden in the basements?

    Historically Austria comprised 1/15th of all German forces in WWII. At the time the anschluss fires, while no one is mobilized...Germany generally has between 500-1000 Manpower, Austria alone adds 500. That means that Austria, while at Peace is now 1/3 to 1/2 the German Army.

    Uh, doesnt there seem to be a problem with all this? No one expects things to be exact, but stay within a reasonable margin of error at least. Historically Germany should get at most 150 manpower from Austria rounded down during peace time and spread over the course of the war.

    Best case scenario incorporate the Austrian Military into the German Army, add another say 20-25 for recruiting restrictions being lifted and for enthusiastic volunteers or whatever and then increase Germany's monthly gain to reflect the added population.

    If you still need to bump Germany up then throw a few more events or like i said modifiy the existing ones. Dont make the "Lets Fight" event for 2 weeks, make it for two months, dont make it 5 or 10% make it 30, 40, 50% etc...

  6. #66
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    (Happyman stares at James - shrugs shoulders and sighs)

    The problem is Oliver - we get your point, but you don't get or accept ours. You've essentially just stated the same thing multiple times through your post.

    Essentially all that you are arguing about is that the Anchluss event, specifically gives less MP to Germany. And, Paradox can give Germany as much MP as they want so long as they do it in smaller and less obvious ways that doesn't break any other feasibility study you could apply.

    ie, based on your last statement, just give them more events that add man power from those hiding in the basements. They could even do it by Major City - "The Stutgart basement Conscription Day" Maybe they could just give you the events as optional events you can fire for 50 MP each time.

    And another tree talking episode come to an end.........

  7. #67
    Happy for the win.

  8. #68
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    What I think 21oliver is saying is that there aren't going to be any more physical male bodies in the country than really truly exist. The rest of it was all repeating what he said earlier that lead to me coming up with my suggestion of 120-150 for the Anschluss. It was all good points, but I think there are a few more perspectives that need to be added to the whole idea. What he is describing is a more accurate manpower system and would need to be changed in hard-code to actually track the number of warm bodies versus the number of bodies you are able to shove into uniform.

    The problem is that MP in the game is an abstract concept so that it can be dynamic with changing laws. What I tried to explain before is that I don't believe manpower should be considered as solidly capped at the level of males actually in the country until the late war, to show that all resistance to conscription has ended among those that are already of age because they are already dead or otherwise unable to serve. At that point "expanding the manpower base" by enacting larger conscription requirements cannot be done. You can't take most 60 year olds and cripples and put them on the front line. You can, however, draft boys and men ages 18-30... then draft to age 40 to expand the pool by event later on. These events already for Germany that give manpower should take some of that law change into consideration.

    For instance, lets say when the versailles treaty ends or when germany annexes Austria they get a chunk of manpower they were not willing to tap into before for fear of retaliation from the Allies.

    -You get +100% manpower growth rate with service_by_requirement, but that already represents that you are collecting every eligible male that comes of age. The bonus associated with the conscription rate there has to do with the rate at which you allow those conscripted to retire.

    -Any bonus modifier applied (as I suggested to make up for the lack of MP provided by a reduced Rhineland and Anschluss) would simulate the males being conscripted that are already of age but were hiding or working elsewhere slowly trickling in. Or as in vanilla from tech such as improvements in agriculture. (Although, something tells me this wouldn't be a trickle if it is done the way I want and needs to add 400MP by 1940)

    -Any direct MP bonus simulates tapping into untapped potential that is readily conscriptable. This could be paramilitary that is absorbed into the military or due to increased conscription age and requirements. (Such as conscripting older people than before or from a new area that didn't conscript)

    can we agree to those points?

    Quote Originally Posted by happyman40 View Post
    (Happyman stares at James - shrugs shoulders and sighs)
    It will be alright. Take a deep breath.

    Acrimony will not solve our differences.
    Last edited by James_Manring; 28-01-2012 at 11:47.

  9. #69
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    James I apreciate you taking the time and providing valid arguments, but Happy is just trolling so i suggest you let it go. There isnt a single valid argument in favor of giving Germany 500 manpower via Anschluss of Austria rather then in some other form. All the Historical numbers show it is not even in the ball park. We dont expect exact, but be in the ballpark somewhere. In part this Manpower is such an issue because Paradox has chosen to take the approach that all units are essentially equal then modified as opposed to each nations units have ratings unique to themselves. A reminder of the really good works of Trevor Dupuy in his analysis (i dont recall the exact numbers) but it was something like one German soldier was equal to 1.5 British/French/US and like 3-4 Soviets. That is after training and equipment, leadership etc...

    Under Paradox's way Manpower becomes vital because often size of strenth/stacks determines the outcome.

    Anyway the trollers are just having fun and being active because i made the post, deep down they know there is no valid argument for it. If Paradox decided to have the US give Carriers and A-Bombs to the French and gave Japan Heavy Armor and A-Bombs in an effort to "balance things out" they would simply say its stupid.

    Remember people 1) who writes a post here is irrelevant of the thought it includes, 2) Just because an issue doesn't bother you, doesn't make it a valid issue, 3) The difficulty of the design process doesnt preclude an issue from being a valid point either nor does 4) More pressing issues in your opinion and 5) If a so blatantly wrong element is included in the game, that could be changed so easily to better represent the actual element why would you not want it done?

    Ive seen 2 specific replies on this topic one said who cares where they get the manpower from its all the same...which if you do not worry about trying to be as historically accurate as possible no one. Those of us who prefer the game as close as possible to the real period to provide more flavor do care, which is why this forum is alive and well. The other reply was it is only a game, it is playable, have fun. Again i say only those who are interested take issues with these things.

    There are many elements of the game that i have little or no interest in, but i dont make it a point to search out others posts just to troll and enflame, it really is a waste of time. To just reply to posts because you dont like the poster really makes you look bad. Most of the people here are very knowledgable and passionate about this game, if we can keep the focus there maybe we can make it better fror everyone.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_brunius View Post
    Nope I also said 2000 mp = 20 million :P

    So the 10x was intentional since 20000mp would be kind of silly
    But not really silly Approximation is 1,000 men for 1 MP. However, this is combat men. Further approximation is 2 men for 1 combat men. It means 20 million is 10,000 MP. This is very and very reasonable. If we make another assumption that due to war casualties divisions were exhausted at least twice during 6 years then that gives 333 divisions for Germany throughout the war.

    Actually I do not have problem to give 5000 MP to Germany in 1 go when I play against it

    So 300,000 should give 100-150 MP boost.

  11. #71
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I dont particularly (as i have mentioned umpteen times) like the combat system here that focuses on Organization, there is seldom any casualties. Units stay in the game forever or disapear off the map. Id scrap the whole Org thing. If 20k troops fight 20k troops there will be many, many casualties. The system here allows us to keep the units in play forever pretty much. You shouldnt be able to take 15 divisions or so and conquer half a dozen nations one after another and stay intact when its over. And forget the reinforce issue, its not effective. The concept of a major battle with no casualties on either side just doesnt work well.

  12. #72
    21oliver: If you say that Austria's army was 1/15 of all Germay then Austria provided approximately 670 MP though out the war.

    Currently Austria gives 500 plus 180 throughout the war. So numbers basically match.

  13. #73
    21 oliver: re casualties. About 300 German soldiers died during Yugoslavian operation. Denmark and Norway cost 5,700, Greece - 1,500, the Netherlands 3,500, Belgium - 18,500, Austria - 0, Czechoslovakia - 0, Poland - 20,000.

    The thing is that without Allied involvement in Greece, Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway those casualties would have been much lower. So yes, with 15 divisions you could conquer 6 countries IRL.

  14. #74
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I was referring to 15 divisions of a minor nation, who arent as adept or equipped for the task. I have done it with about 7 or 8 nations with no problem. Ive taken Nat Spain and conquered most of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia while barely building new combat troops. Your Austria numbers may match on paper but there is no way they could get 500 in one shot from a nation who has a manpower pool of 55. Especially while at peace. It could be looked at from every angle, it still doesnt work. An apple is an apple no matter what way you look at it, it will always be an apple.

    Ideally Germany should get austrias military and manpower pool, modified by ideological and govt involvement. Maybe 100? a few more? max and then you would increase the added monthly manpower for Germany.

  15. #75
    Field Marshal CplKatie's Avatar
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    Threads about problems people have with a game that can be fixed with notepad and 5 spare minutes....thats what makes me go hmmmmm

  16. #76
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    We know the game can be modded, the question we often bring up is why should we have to? Especially when some issues are blatanly obvious and with plenty of other options. Sometimes there isnt much that can be done and we usually recognize that, but sometimes you just wonder what they were thinking.

  17. #77
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    I was referring to 15 divisions of a minor nation, who arent as adept or equipped for the task. I have done it with about 7 or 8 nations with no problem. Ive taken Nat Spain and conquered most of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia while barely building new combat troops. Your Austria numbers may match on paper but there is no way they could get 500 in one shot from a nation who has a manpower pool of 55. Especially while at peace. It could be looked at from every angle, it still doesnt work. An apple is an apple no matter what way you look at it, it will always be an apple.

    Ideally Germany should get austrias military and manpower pool, modified by ideological and govt involvement. Maybe 100? a few more? max and then you would increase the added monthly manpower for Germany.
    This is not an apple though. If the numbers work out on paper then that is a great basis for figuring out how much manpower to give to germany in growth for owning them. Although isn't that a purely provincial history thing? Those are the numbers that need to provide the right recruiting rate to give the manpower we need to solve this issue.

    Does anyone have a troop number for how much they recruited from Austria in the first month or two as well as how many troops actually were absorbed directly by the wehrmacht?

  18. #78
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    The following article (if valid) says about 50k

    http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=7

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    I was referring to 15 divisions of a minor nation, who arent as adept or equipped for the task. I have done it with about 7 or 8 nations with no problem. Ive taken Nat Spain and conquered most of Europe, Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia while barely building new combat troops. Your Austria numbers may match on paper but there is no way they could get 500 in one shot from a nation who has a manpower pool of 55. Especially while at peace. It could be looked at from every angle, it still doesnt work. An apple is an apple no matter what way you look at it, it will always be an apple.
    Now would you be able to do the same against human players playing minors you attacked? Probably not. So this is not casualty thing but AI poor handling of its divisions

    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Ideally Germany should get austrias military and manpower pool, modified by ideological and govt involvement. Maybe 100? a few more? max and then you would increase the added monthly manpower for Germany.
    I have calculated Austria's MP for the sake of interest. By March 1938 it had 110 MP after I have disbanded its army. So if you want to provide the same MP number through out the war Austria's base MP should be 3 times higher.

  20. #80
    General James_Manring's Avatar
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    That is disappointingly low. I don't think anyone wants to only get a single shot of 25MP even if we give them 15MP a month after that from Austria.

    Calculated? You mean in game? Was that with service_by_requirement or did you let people "retire" from the manpower pool? When we are balancing this I believe we need to do it under the war time service_by_requirement policy if we are going to start talking about changing provincial history levels.

    Wien for instance has manpower = 8.00. What does that translate to in a recruitment rate?
    Last edited by James_Manring; 28-01-2012 at 13:38.

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