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Thread: Things that make you go hmmm....

  1. #1
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    Things that make you go hmmm....

    Ok here is one for all you (and you know who you are!) undercover Paradox employees who believe HOI3 is Gods gift to gamers and anyone who has anything negative about the game is a moron...I warn you though youll have to get creative to justify this one.....

    As Germany I gain (in early 1938) 500 manpower from the Anschluss of Austria. If i start the game as Austria, they have 55 manpower with a +0.4 monthly gain.

    hmmmmmmm.....

  2. #2
    Corporal mgun2010's Avatar
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    Maybe it they extra manpower comes from how happy they are with the Anschluss. hmmmmmm..... Maybe.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    The amount of available manpower has to do with healthy men between around the ages of 12/13-45ish nothing to do with whether theyre happy and singing! Oh yeah and the Rhine, which was occupied but militarized, gains Germany 250 manpower and the Treay of Munich provides 300 manpower (also a hmmm, check czechoslovakia out).

    Seems like they really want to bump Germany up. And i can remember the arguments about the minors manpower being way too low, Paradox hands out men to Germany like candy on halloween!

  4. #4
    it is all about balancing. reallife numbers have nothing to do with it and so have the manpower values of those countries. all is defined in the event files.
    part of the austrian manpower comes from the fact that germany did take over the austrian army. however, you can change all that within 30 seconds so that it feels better for you,

  5. #5
    borg in training DanSez's Avatar
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    I'll agree with the 'gaming' decision - which is what it is. Doesn't manpower levels change/increase/etc as the national mood changes? That doesn't mean that age eligable men just suddenly appear either. The game is far from perfect - but it isn't half bad either.

    I personally would wish for more historical sim than game-balance in many place, the greatest abuse IMO of which is the Soviet Union gearing up and declaring war because London falls to the Axis. Historically, that is a joke and thank God and Paradox that such things can be modded away.

    AND THAT makes HoI3 at least a good game - if you have enough energy and dilligence, you can mod the game more toward what you wish it to be (within limits, yes, but still a lot of leaway to adjust).

    Another thing to pick on is - the Bismark is not the Bismark. Hard to swallow for the true historian, but great ghost Gerdie, it is a game and name another that trys to cover this scope and gives you historically accurate units? I'd like to know, I would go and buy it --- but as a compromise (and there are many in HoI3), you still can have a fun little challenge or diversion while conquering or freeing the world (depending on what hat you like to wear).

    --EDIT--
    humm just reread your initial post - no I am not an undercover Paradox employee and doubt I can be classified as a fan-boy. But after all the hours I have spent playing and modding this thing on my own (and sniffing around the modding masters to learn a few tricks, thanks guys) - I still like the game and think there is untapped potential.

    Have a cigar and a shot and if you are in a better mood could you post or pm me a list of better games - I am not baiting you, I am truely interested.
    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by DanSez; 24-01-2012 at 19:23.

  6. #6
    Don't forget you also get the manpower from the disbanded Austrian Military.

  7. #7
    Master (of Sience, that is) Panncakemouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    As Germany I gain (in early 1938) 500 manpower from the Anschluss of Austria. If i start the game as Austria, they have 55 manpower with a +0.4 monthly gain.
    hmmmmmmm.....
    Austria had a population of about 6,7 million in 1938 and based on birth rates from 1920 about 150 000 persons reach servicable age each year (about half should be male)
    So if 500 manpower is realistic based on Austrian past military training applied to German consription is fairly easy to calculate

    +0.4 montly gain = 41 per year to be compared to 75 00 total new servicable men.

    Of cource manpower in game is not 1:1 to actual personell IRL.

    If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy to seek a solution elsewhere.
    von Clausewitz

  8. #8
    Emperor of Outremer TheCheeseMaster's Avatar
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    "People of Germany, our great nation has furthered our goals and has unionized with our friends in Austria! Go forth and join our army so we can unite our friends furthermore and rid the world of the Bolsheviks! God is with us!"

    I'm pretty sure a great speech about their victories would get people to do their bidding and join their army. You lot are over complicating it: you feel united and patriotic, you join the army!

    Also, I love the Brainiac reference Mr John Tickle!
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCheeseMaster View Post
    "People of Germany, our great nation has furthered our goals and has unionized with our friends in Austria! Go forth and join our army so we can unite our friends furthermore and rid the world of the Bolsheviks! God is with us!"

    I'm pretty sure a great speech about their victories would get people to do their bidding and join their army. You lot are over complicating it: you feel united and patriotic, you join the army!

    Also, I love the Brainiac reference Mr John Tickle!
    it is not like they did have much choice but austria was considered german and and a large part of the austrian people wanted to be unified with germany because they feared austria would be to small to survive alone. since greater germany had conscription nobody was asked to join the army anyway but yes, the austrian army was integrated into the german army and surely many volunteered.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    Ok here is one for all you (and you know who you are!) undercover Paradox employees who believe HOI3 is Gods gift to gamers and anyone who has anything negative about the game is a moron...I warn you though youll have to get creative to justify this one.....

    As Germany I gain (in early 1938) 500 manpower from the Anschluss of Austria. If i start the game as Austria, they have 55 manpower with a +0.4 monthly gain.

    hmmmmmmm.....
    That 500 MP is the difference between Austrian draft laws and Nazi ones. When the Nazis took over, suddenly all sorts of men who thought themselves exempt from military service became draft eligible.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal NikkTheTrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    The amount of available manpower has to do with healthy men between around the ages of 12/13-45ish nothing to do with whether theyre happy and singing! Oh yeah and the Rhine, which was occupied but militarized, gains Germany 250 manpower and the Treay of Munich provides 300 manpower (also a hmmm, check czechoslovakia out).

    Seems like they really want to bump Germany up. And i can remember the arguments about the minors manpower being way too low, Paradox hands out men to Germany like candy on halloween!
    The game cannot model everything exactly, so some things need to be abstracted.

    Think of those manpower boosts as increasing militarization of Germany (in case of Rhine and Munich) and conscripting a whole bunch of Austrians that Austria did not conscript. That way, a relatively harmless 1936 Germany grows into the 1939 behemoth. Then Germany stops getting that extra manpower since there is no one else to call up to the army and ends up manpower starved when everything with male genitalia is already wearing uniform.

    If Germany has too much manpower for your liking, play on harder difficulty (as Germany) or easier (as non-Germany). You can also mod the difficulty text file and increase/decrease player/AI manpower growth to balance German manpower income.
    If you have problems with getting into Personal Unions in EUIII, adopt "keep your %@#$ in your pants" policy with regards to Royal marriages.

  12. #12
    Colonel happyman40's Avatar
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    Oliver starting another manpower thread...mmmmm.

    Without wanting to sound like a paradox appologist - the game is what it is and works pretty well considering all the possible intermeshing factors that go into making the game work at all.

    With that in mind, An aspect of how Manpower is represented in the game is derived as a function of many variables meant, in some way, to try and model certain real life mechanics. A nations' political situation/culture, it's war footing, population etc etc, would all impact on manpower.


    For example, the US at peace in 1936 has a much lower manpower pool than it does in 1944 not because it's population or government changed but because the politcal reality changed such that conscription and cultural forces increased the numbers of available manpower. If there had been no Pearl harbour then the US government would have had much less political currency to order conscription / general mobilisation and thus it's manpower pool would have been much less. The will of the people determined to a large extent the manpower pool.

    The Austria example could make perfect sense if you understand that the political landscape of Austria was much more social democratic than Germany and thus the Government would not have been able to impose laws and the cultural malaise required to force the manpower pool higher. You could say germany taking over austria then the expectation to join the armed forces and the laws able to be imposed would have been far more draconian than the Austrian government could have introduced.

    Russia is another good example of how the regime type would affect available manpower. An iron fisted - non democratic regime is much more able to force people to fight than a politically divided / depression torn democracy.

  13. #13
    Austria is not mobilized that is why.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I dont disagree with you happy at all, just the numbers are a bit too high, it would be more realistic to bring them down, unfortunately the need to be there because Russia is too OP and often steamrolls Germany anyway. So its like a domino effect. I just wanted to see how many defended the German manpower situation when so many other nations clearly have had their manpower shrunk to nothing
    Oliver starting another manpower thread...mmmmm.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Alex_brunius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    I dont disagree with you happy at all, just the numbers are a bit too high, it would be more realistic to bring them down, unfortunately the need to be there because Russia is too OP and often steamrolls Germany anyway. So its like a domino effect. I just wanted to see how many defended the German manpower situation when so many other nations clearly have had their manpower shrunk to nothing
    So you would preffer that USA gains 0 manpower at Pearl harbour because they didn't get any extra territory at all?

    It's all about game balance, that happens in order for USA to have a small peacetime army, but a larger wartime army.

    Just like the German manpower events happen so that Germany can have a large enough Army to achieve roughly what they did historically!
    If you look at how much the German army expanded between 1936 and 1939 you will understand that they make sense.

    And seriously, are you claiming that Russia wasn't powerful in WW2?

    Edit: If anything Id rather say that Russia and Germany gets to little manpower, seeing how they tend to run out of it already in 1942-43 most of the time.
    Last edited by Alex_brunius; 25-01-2012 at 08:55.
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  16. #16
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    I said Russia was OP (Over powered). I have no problem with the events adding manpower. Its just when i keep hearing the answer "its done for play balance" it means to me the basics of the game need to be fixed. I mean why cant the game have accurate manpower numbers throughout the whole game, and still have play balance??? Anyway as with the US, I am not disagreeing with the way its done, i just think the numbers are way off. If you want Germany to have more manpower then give it to them, but make the events more accurate imo.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by happyman40 View Post
    Oliver starting another thread...mmmmm.
    Fixed.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Alex_brunius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21oliver View Post
    If you want Germany to have more manpower then give it to them, but make the events more accurate imo.
    So what you really are complaing about is that the manpower isn't in separate mobilization events/decisions but rather mixed in other historical events then?

    There are lots of mods to help you with those problems if that is the case
    "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - Patton

  19. #19
    Field Marshal 21oliver's Avatar
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    lol no no....what im saying is, in my opinion the events give way too much manpower to Germany. I am not arguing whether they should have it or not, just not from those events. Its like saying germany needs more Oil, Ok when the conquer Switzerland well give them a bazillion gallons. All im saying is if the numbers are so off find another way to fix it, rather then being so out of whack.... I mean you have nations who are way underpowered and Germany gets like 1000k manpower from remilitarizing the rhine (it wasnt re-occupying the rhine, Anschluss of Austria and Treaty of Munich, not to mention when they get the First Vienna Award.

    Imagine instead of some destroyers they had lend lease from the USA to GB and gave them a dozen carriers, because they needed to "Balance the game". I just think the numbers are off is all, I would say at best a quarter of what they get would be prob right.

    I know pretty much everything with a few exceptions is moddable, i simply refer to the game in vanilla form with a post like this. The funny thing is like my old posts about the manpower of many nations being so off, alot of people would try and justify it, and yet nearly all the mods agree and have changed it

  20. #20
    Field Marshal Alex_brunius's Avatar
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    And how do you envision Germany being able to fight Soviet, USA and UK on 3 large fronts all the way to 1945 with even less manpower then they have today? (And today they run out in 1942-43 even without many losses to USA/UK).

    Answer: They can't. They would be over-run by UK alone if you remove the 1000 manpower from these events.

    Germany need more manpower to survive until 1945, not less. Minors aren't supposed to be able to fight them.
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