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Thread: Should there be an option to disable magistrates?

  1. #1
    Field Marshal Frederic III's Avatar
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    Should there be an option to disable magistrates?

    I read and commented on many threads linked with the "magistrate question", since DW, and I just find we have very opposing views on this matter. My view is that money is supposed to represent the magistrate, and that if you can fully upgrade a country like Russia before the end of the game, then the problem is that you have too much money. Therefore, we shouldn't rely on magistrates to slow a country development. This feature is basically one of the things that makes me enjoy more IN than DW, because you were more free with this expansion.

    Now, I understand the game is, especially since DW, focused to use the magistrates, but poor them, I don't like them. I know I could just make the basic modifier to 999 per year, but that would disbalance the game, wouldn't it? So I'm just asking if, retaking the torch of the anti-magistrate crusade (sorry, wrong game, I'm not in CK2), if we could make an option to disable them and replace their effect by something else.

    ... Or if you could convince me of the absolute necessity of magistrates in this game, I would be happy to read your comments, but I sincerely see nothing.
    To avoid little country being eaten alive? Adjust diplomacy.
    To restrain large country? Give them less money to spend or increase the military budget.
    To simulate the fact that a country is built near a central zone? Just give some modifiers to provinces near wealthier.
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  2. #2
    Well, the three best arguments for magistrates are probably:

    -To make there be some strategy behind taking land, rather than just "more land = stronger" caveman style play like in TW and such.

    -Conscription centre and Naval base spam is dumb enough without having infinite magistrates.

    -Too much economy micromanagement.

    In addition, the high cost of military maintenance means you can't just nerf income across the board to solve development spam in giant blobs.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pewt View Post
    -Conscription centre and Naval base spam is dumb enough without having infinite magistrates.
    I would say the level 5/6 trade building spam is even dumber but I don't really do MP.

    I do agree that something is needed to throttle mega-blobbing being every bit as efficient as staying small. The magistrate system works well enough IMO although I wouldn't mind a few tweaks such as allowing you to burn manpower reserves (and $$$ of course) to expand forts or possibly adding a very small (.01/province > 30?) modifier for extremely large nations. It was a bit ridiculous in prior expansions that 1 year after hitting a tech I could have 200+ constables/temples/whatevers up and running across my empire.

  4. #4
    I've never liked the fact you need magistrates to upgrade buildings although it does work fine as it is. Ideally always felt the cap should be population related and would add a sort of maintenence penelty for vast empires above a certain number of buildings + distance from the capital. Holding a big empire toghether should be harder than creating an empire if history is to be believed. Not sure if that would be welcomed by people who play the game though...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by brifbates View Post
    I would say the level 5/6 trade building spam is even dumber but I don't really do MP.

    I do agree that something is needed to throttle mega-blobbing being every bit as efficient as staying small. The magistrate system works well enough IMO although I wouldn't mind a few tweaks such as allowing you to burn manpower reserves (and $$$ of course) to expand forts or possibly adding a very small (.01/province > 30?) modifier for extremely large nations. It was a bit ridiculous in prior expansions that 1 year after hitting a tech I could have 200+ constables/temples/whatevers up and running across my empire.
    Level 5/6 trade spam isn't really that dumb, for a few reasons.
    1. By the time you have enough buildings for its effect to truly end the game, you already won from sheer size and province value years ago.
    2. After a certain point, more income doesn't really do anything for you. The ~26 naval FL or ~20,000 MP and ~8 forcelimit provided by the line of land or naval buildings on a single province cannot really be replicated by t6 trade building spam.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gameofthrones View Post
    I've never liked the fact you need magistrates to upgrade buildings although it does work fine as it is. Ideally always felt the cap should be population related and would add a sort of maintenence penelty for vast empires above a certain number of buildings + distance from the capital. Holding a big empire toghether should be harder than creating an empire if history is to be believed. Not sure if that would be welcomed by people who play the game though...

    This.
    Current magistrate system is just not logical.
    “The more is given the less the people will work for themselves, and the less they work the more their poverty will increase.”
    -Leo Tolstoy

  7. #7
    Augustus of the North DreadLindwyrm's Avatar
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    I think part of the problem is that the magistrate pulls multiple duties. He builds buildings, he goes to provinces to perform decisions made by the immortal god-emperor and he is sacrificed and turned into art work that magically inspires better advisors for his country.

    It works as an abstraction, in much the same way that no-one really believes you can store up merchants; or that you can hold a maximum of 5 diplomats at your court, who then proceed to die when used.
    *This space deliberately left blank*

  8. #8
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    Imagine all the fine tuning that would be needed to make an economy solution to the blobbing problem. Then imagine Paradox trying to solve it that way. In 6.0 they would have forgotten to update the economy, in 6.1 everybody would go bankrupt every year, in 6.2 everybody would have a million ducats in 1400 and then they wouldn't release any more patches.
    It's spelled you, not u.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Frederic III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreadLindwyrm View Post
    I think part of the problem is that the magistrate pulls multiple duties. He builds buildings, he goes to provinces to perform decisions made by the immortal god-emperor and he is sacrificed and turned into art work that magically inspires better advisors for his country.

    It works as an abstraction, in much the same way that no-one really believes you can store up merchants; or that you can hold a maximum of 5 diplomats at your court, who then proceed to die when used.
    I think you found a very interesting point about magistrates, DeadLindwyrm. The multitask magistrates make them look like they were only something to fill in a hole. They don't simply do one task, but many, and it is frustrating that the same guys can be used to buy a paint and to build a road network. And I claim that money was the perfect abstraction for those tasks in the old game. If only they were like in HoI "leadership", it would make a little more sense, but for me, all of the little guys on the top should be considered like "magistrates", if you mean by that "public servants".
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic III View Post
    I think you found a very interesting point about magistrates, DeadLindwyrm. The multitask magistrates make them look like they were only something to fill in a hole. They don't simply do one task, but many, and it is frustrating that the same guys can be used to buy a paint and to build a road network. And I claim that money was the perfect abstraction for those tasks in the old game. If only they were like in HoI "leadership", it would make a little more sense, but for me, all of the little guys on the top should be considered like "magistrates", if you mean by that "public servants".
    Here, here! (or is it "hear, hear!") Paradox likes sliders, so something like the HoI system would be kinda cool.

  11. #11
    Its easy to turn off magistrates and hordes by modding Buildings.txt and changing the government types of the hordes.

    To me that removes two of the three biggest fun-killers of the latest expansion. The third issue being Cta alliance cascades which I thoroughly loathe and that have sadly been hardcoded into the game.

    Anyhow, mod it away.

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Frederic III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alerias View Post
    Its easy to turn off magistrates and hordes by modding Buildings.txt and changing the government types of the hordes.

    To me that removes two of the three biggest fun-killers of the latest expansion. The third issue being Cta alliance cascades which I thoroughly loathe and that have sadly been hardcoded into the game.

    Anyhow, mod it away.
    I said that I knew that was possible, but as I have the idea that the game is now built to work with them, disabling them by a personal mod seems to just be "cheating". "I don't like this feature? Fine, I will disable it by modding the game. Infamy is frustrating? Let's make it 999 limit!" I know this isn't exactly the same thing, but the game is now, sadly, balanced to work with those magistrates (although always seeing blobhemia and asian austria in the strange screenshot makes me wonder what is "balancing" exacly...) In the place where you choose your country, you can turn down the "lucky nations" (something I never liked), non-historical monarch (but this is bugged, as I understand it), exploration spread, etc. So why not adding an option to disable the magistrates, since so many people seems to don't like them? And while we are here, yes, we could also add something about cascading wars. It's not that I don't like the concept of cascading wars, it's because I don't like the fact that diplomacy seems to be absent of it.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DreadLindwyrm View Post
    I think part of the problem is that the magistrate pulls multiple duties. He builds buildings, he goes to provinces to perform decisions made by the immortal god-emperor and he is sacrificed and turned into art work that magically inspires better advisors for his country.

    It works as an abstraction, in much the same way that no-one really believes you can store up merchants; or that you can hold a maximum of 5 diplomats at your court, who then proceed to die when used.
    This is the key point here and why people don't like magistrates.

    For the buildings, it seems far more logical to suggest that certain buildings require a minimum population base before they can be built whilst others can be built anywhere because they are an extension of military power and so centrally funded.

    For the province based decisions, why not simply have a clock on those (like the clock on the national focus, for example) to limit the number of decisions you can make in any particular period of time.

    And for the cultural role, again there could be a clock to slow you down here but otherwise things should cost money rather than magistrates.

  14. #14
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    > It's not that I don't like the concept of cascading wars, it's because I don't like the fact that diplomacy seems to be absent of it.

    A.I. is still completely stupid in choosing its war target, goals, and CB. A rather extreme example would be Castile being "Very Likely" to accept A Call to Arms to a dirt poor country it has military access to and I watched on the ledger how its stability turned from +2 to -3. What a dumbass.

  15. #15
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    Magistrate system is excellent. Balances the game and forces us to make hard choices. EU3 is better then ever after DW.

  16. #16
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    I'll premise that I like it, but I can't force others to like it. This said, Frederic, modding is not cheating: this side of the game wasn't there before, I don't like it, I mod it out. On the other hand, it COULD be an option, along with the "no inflation" one. But then, what would you use magistrates for? Painting spam, I believe, isn't meant to be done - give a money price to that decision, and you will find that you have more magistrates to build things.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Frederic III's Avatar
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    The problem is that I don't see in what the magistrates force us to make hard choices. I find it ridiculous if a powerful country is drowning in its own money and cannot spend it on intrastructures. The way to "balance" things, as I see it, would be to give more cost to the standing army or to decrease the value of money, so that we would have exactly the same dilemmas to make. And indeed, there is a no inflation button, and I never used it. But I would happily use a no magistrate button that would replace them, in everything they do except maybe decisions (I'm not sure about paints, but I don't think we should need a magistrate for that) by money.

    That said, the obvious flaw of the magistrates is that they have multiple purpose, like no other agents in the game. Some have two roles, but they are related.


    Merchants are used to trade in center of trade. I am not aware of any other use they have.

    Colonists are used to colonise and, in the case of a Horde, to take the effective control of one part of the land controlled by the Horde, which i see similar.

    Diplomats are used to discuss with other countries and can be transformed into a general, which could be described as hard diplomacy. I never understood the ("r-p") purpose
    of the second option, but I live with it since it doesn't annoy me too much.

    Missionaries are used to convert a province to your own faith. Although I would like a specification about if they burn heretics or are trying to convert more peacefully, they still only have one purpose for the game.

    Spies are used for many things linked to intelligence services that are easy to see as a whole destined to raise our chance of success against a country in a war.

    But magistrates, originally used for decisions and imperial reforms, are now also needed to create buildings. That way, they intervened in one of the only area money wasn't out and the most logical. If you have the money to build things, just do it. To me, masons, builders and architects were perfectly simulated by the money the building costed you, since they were probably mostly locals. Maybe a building should be harder to construct if the province is poor, but I don't see why the entire country should be mobilized in the creation of one net of infrasructures in one province, thus making it impossible for another region to upgrade itself with the bless (and money) of the "central" government. We are talking about "countries" which are barely out of feudal age, why should the ruler be in control of everything?
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  18. #18
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    I would think a change in the magistrate system could make it more intersting. Lower the overal number of magistrates a little but in return lower the cost of building low lvls buidlings if you got high tech.

    F.eks. Lets take forts as an example. If the highest available fort is lvl 1 it would take 1 magistrate to build, just as it does today. If you are able to build lvl 2 forts, a lvl one fort would only cost 0.9 magistrate, while the lvl 2 would cost one. If you're highest lvl available fort was lvl 3. A lvl 1 fort might cost 0.75 or 0.7, lvl 2 would cost 0.9 and lvl 3 1. That what it would be easier to develop provinces a little bit late in the game, while not disturbing the game balance much, becouse you get less magistrates overall + it can now be a strategic decision on WHEN to build and also WHAT to build.

    Lets say you want to build trade buildings up high, and you will get acess to a new building in about 5 years wich will reduce the number of magistrates you will need for lower lvls buildings.Will you then spend the magistrates on other buildings to cash in on the number of magistrates needed for trade buildings 5 years from now, or do you still build them at once at a higher magistrates cost, but also getting the bonus for them straight away instead of postponing it by 5 years?


    I also think that is realistic. What takes a lot of great minds to develop and improve and build with a brand new technology will be considersed easy and could requireed almost unskilled workers many years later. LVl 1 forts might simply be a wall, while a lvl 6 would be maybee inner and outter walls, with big towers, boiling oil, rolling logs, killing pits, mote etc. By the time you can build a castle like that, a simple one layer wall should be something a lot of people could do. Meaning people able to build a lvl 6 fort and a new technology would be scarace and only a few would be around, but there woudl be plenty of haldway educated people able to build a lvl 1 fort, and so only costing 0.3-0.5 magistrates instead of 1.


    Edit: And if you don't mind to cheat you can just mod the game by going into the buildings and set magistrates to 0 below every building and they won't cost a magistrate. Though 0.5 etc doesn't work though, the game reads it's as 0. you can also mod the buildings to not be destroyed on conquest even if you don't have a core on the. Changing those 2 things here is an example of what it would look like. Temples does not required a magistrate to build and is not destroyed on conquest.

    # Government
    temple = {
    cost = 50¨
    officials = 0
    time = 12
    modifier = {
    stability_cost = -4 #reduces stability cost by 4$
    }
    destroy_on_conquest = no
    category = 1
    Last edited by Flammehav; 27-01-2012 at 00:22.

  19. #19
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    For those suggesting that population should be considered, I think two major points are being overlooked. One, remember that urban populations were relatively small in this period. 10K people in a city made it fairly notable. Considering that all cities start out at 1K minimum, you should theoretically be able to build most of the buildings in those 1K population cities. This pretty much defeats the purpose of considering population in the first place. Second, remember that EU3 barely handles populations at all. It's not hard to turn a 3K population province into a bustling metropolis in about 100 years. That should be more or less impossible.

    In any case, Magistrates are in the game mainly as an abstract limit on your administrative capabilities. Instead of just dumping money into everything, you now have to take things a little more slowly and you have to plan a little more in advance. To be honest it makes more sense than the old method where you could just save up for a particular tech level, research it, then spam buildings from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

  20. #20
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    Maybe magistrates should decrease the cost and time to build provincial improvements?

    Like, if you have a magistrate available, building cost and building time will be the same as they are now. If you want to build an improvement without a magistrate, it could be 5 times more expensive and take take twice as long to construct. These are just examples--the penalties could be higher or lower.

    That will encourage people to build when they have magistrates available, but also make it possible to build when you are swimming in gold and willing to wait longer for stuff to be built.

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