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Have you played Sins or Distant Worlds? There's no "arcade skills" involved. They aren't real-time to add "skill" and frantic microing like you'd find in Starcraft 2, they are real-time so the combat can look pretty without relying on annoying load screens. The gameplay is slow enough that you are not only never rushing to do things, but you are often speeding time up after issuing a few orders. It still feels turn based because you issue a few orders at normal/slow/paused speeds, then you crank up the game speed to 4x or 8x as your commands are carried out. I felt the same as you before I played Sins, RTS just don't have that same feel as TBS, but then I actually played Sins and it blew me away.

I never played them, but I agree that some RTS games are playable for TBS fans like me, for example Europa Universalis and similar Paradox games, which can be set to autopause when something important happens. This doesn't apply to a "typical" RTS though, that's why I wrote "most RTS games".
 
I don't think you've spent as much time in the FE forums as you've claimed. They are full of unhappy testers who are aware of how "complete" the beta is supposed to be and yet how lacking it is.

I've spent enough time there too see that those really unhappy ones are a substantial minority. And I didn't see a single post saying that FE is no more than "patch" to WoM. In the first few days after release of beta 1 almost every one said that FE is a huge step forward. Some of them were really excited. If you go to the forums right now you won't see those optimistic opinions. Why? Because at the moment another subject is on top: there are hundreds of threads about bugs and suggestions (that's what beta is for). Reading "bug" threads might create an impression that ppl are not happy with the game. It's generally not true.

And mind that I didn't say that ppl are super excited about this game (maybe a few are). Most of them are carefully optimistic. Just like me.

Note that FE is not a game for everyone. I don't see why a 4X strategy game fan must love all good 4X strategy games. Maybe FE is simply not a game for you? (Did you play beta?)

Case in point, there are countless threads about how bad the AI is. So Brad made a comment to attempt to calm things down for a while, even though it's contradictory as he's already talked about, how great he thinks the AI is off of the versions we have and how he himself has been playing each version and making AI adjustments off of them. How could he be playing 0.76 and making AI changes in it if the AI "isn't in yet?" We'll see.

AI is not complete.

AI is being implemented.

Wait two weeks for new AI.

Wait a few months for complete AI.

Galactic Civilizations had a very good AI. WoM didn't. I have an impression that Brad Wardell knows what he did wrong. And he knows that if FE fails like WoM Stardock will never regain trust.


EDIT: Look at this poll:

What is your impression of Elemental: Fallen Enchantress BETA 1?

Excellent! - 31%
Good - 44%
Fair - 20%
Poor - 5%
Terrible - 0%

363 Total Votes
(http://www. elementalgame .com/journalshttp://www.elementalgame.com/journals)

*No hotlinking*
 
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Yeah. If the future of turn-based 4X games depends on success of W and FE, then the future of turn-based fantasy 4X games depends on it even more. If both games fail there will be no games within this precious sub-genre for years.
Fall from Heaven is popular, especially for a mod, so it's all in developer's hands. We can't do anything anyway. Even betatesters can't do much, usually when developers invite betatesters, all major features of the game are feature-locked, so betatester's playtest can't really change anything significant, even if developers are willing to listen (say, in case of Elemental Stardock didn't listen).

BTW, a real spiritual successor to MoM would make me very happy. EDIT: Frankly, I don't believe that any of those games will be one. It's too early. Maybe Fallen Enchantress 2 (War of Magic 2?) or Warlock 2 would meet the challenge.
Yeah, they don't look like they have a complete feature set. Warlock is probably closer to Fantasy General plus some limited economy like in Advanced Tactics.
Fallen Enchantress has most of the features on paper, but they just don't get it why it was popular. Implementation is so wrong that they fail to capture MoM feeling too.

That's great. But modders can't jump over engine's limitations. I don't want to stuck with iterations of the same stuff for ever.
Well, there aren't that many limitations in Civ4, after all you have a full access to game logic engine. Sure, you have some limitations but it's a most moddable 4x strategy right now.

From my point of view the situation looks like this: there are dozens of ppl (that played FE beta) saying that FE beta is waaay beyond WoM, and there is you.
...
(Elemental: War of Magic got 53%, Civilization V got 90%, Distant Worlds got 78%.)
It's nice that they improve it but improvement over 53% can't reach 90%. You need a remake, not just an improvement.
 
As played the FE beta (0.75-0.77) as well as a little bit with WoM (mostly beta).

FE is really good early game, at least if you start playing it without much games played before, that's why a lot of people give it Excellent/Good on poll early on (~50% Excellent at start!). The "Excellent" went "Good" over time because of a reason...

FE get worse when mid/late game comes up. Mostly not even because its unbalanced or has a bad AI (which its the case! But beta may improve it at least the unbalanced part in a good way).

No the real problem is: Besides the fine Quests (which are more or less random, you can't influence this much) there is just no real new stuff happening and the basics a 4x should have are somehow crippled at least for me:

- research is boring! All 3 trees are build up on same mechanism, all costs are the same for each nation and on each step in tree, no nation specific research at all,the output of research itself isn't something I'm REALLY waiting for. Its just I choose something and fine. when I compare it with something like FFH2 or is improving successor Master of Mana its way behind

- research bring us new buildings, buildings are the next problem: I just build it. The is no real decision, you just build everything on every city without to think about -> boring! No building costs just building time. The "upkeep" (some building costs 1 gold or so) is just something you don't care! The output is always bigger.

Perks are fine, there are common, uncommon, rare and you get them for levels on your heroes and on cities but again: usually you get some random to choose from and there is not much tactic behind which one you take (usually the rarest when it fits, otherwise the one better for your kind of hero (mage or warrior/assasin/defender). For cities I usually get only commons (had 1 rare) and what I get don't influence the city as much as the rest of building do -> city still more or less the same.

- Cities: When you start you decide to either create a more food related city or a more resource wise (or 50/50), thats it! Problem here: you still build up anything relevant for either food and resources!

For me the whole game is not working in a way I can enjoy it in moment. I mean my only decisions is: When do I build another pioneer to settle (usually early on), my leader always hiring 1/2 heroes and go with them to the random quests. My cities build every building starting from the one reducing building time, I research quest stuff first because the rest can wait, I don't build units because its not worth to build, you just defend with your heroes.

After this there is still nothing thrilling! I build up my cities without much need to care what you build, I build and send caravans and when my heroes starting being OP in any way (magic/melee combat) I ran over full AI stacks until I reach the cities which -even defended- are just the same battle I had in dozens before I reach city: 1 stack with some not relevant def bonus in the same tactical battle.

Compared to WoM they cut naval completely (because of the known AI problems this usually causes). The whole magic system focus on million of spells restricted by your global mana, it usually influence tactic combat in a way I don like (OP tactics) and don't bring something good into the world (funny nation depending global enchantments missed!).

Instead I see millions of different random quests which are funny(!) but it can't be the HEART of a game. Like someone noted here: the whole game is based on features build together to a game which misses several essential things: Making real decisions is my biggest! Many of the "features" are random based and most of the rest are irrelevant! I can decide to give my troops a spear or a sword but it NOT important, same as all this buildings (just build them!).

The focus were on incidental stuff! Its nice to have and for sure it makes the difference when it comes to decide which of the 2 topgames are the real king. But sadly I really miss the focus on the essential stuff and this hurts so much! Its not as bad as WoM was but its not far away enough.
 
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Instead I see millions of different random quests which are funny(!) but it can't be the HEART of a game. Like someone noted here: the whole game is based on features build together to a game which misses several essential things: Making real decisions is my biggest! Many of the "features" are random based and most of the rest are irrelevant! I can decide to give my troops a spear or a sword but it NOT important, same as all this buildings (just build them!).
Yes, i said it for exactly the same reason. I prefer a school of thought of Sid Meier, Zileas and Soren Johnson:

http://www. gamedev .net/reference/design/features/balance/ (remake of the original article)
google mirror

*NO hotlinking*
Tom Cadwell said:
What is Play Balance?
Sid Meier once said, "A game is a collection of interesting choices". It follows that game elements being out of balance and thereby eliminating choices detracts from the gameplay. Ideally, a game should be a series of choices, ending with victory of defeat or some other end condition. Sometimes, some choices will become unquestionably the only choice, or definitely not a valid choice. If there is only one valid choice at some point, but the game hasn't ended, there is a play balance problem.
Nearly all situations commonly referred to as imbalances can be boiled down to a choice reduction.
So, a game is about making interesting choices. Strategy game should be about strategic/tactical choices.

http://www. designer-notes .com/?p=119http://www.designer-notes.com/?p=119
Soren Johnson said:
The Player Should Have the Fun, not the Designer or the Computer
As Sid liked to say, with these games, either the designer or the computer was the one having the fun, not the player.
...
but also took away the player’s ability to pick which technologies were researched, what buildings were constructed, and which units were trained, relying instead on a hidden, internal model to simulate what the county’s people would choose on their own. The algorithms were, of course, very fun to construct and interesting to discuss outside of the game. The players, however, felt left behind – the computer was having all the fun – so we cut the feature.
That's what i talked about - a difference between self-playing simulators and strategy games.

Soren Johnson said:
Further, games require not just meaningful choices but also meaningful communication to feel right. Giving players decisions that have consequence but which they cannot understand is no fun.
...
Choice is only interesting when it is both impactful and informed.
No manual, no tooltips in the game, convoluted formulas... A common mistake in all Stardock's games. Well, now at least they hired Soren Johnson who wrote that article, so maybe they'll fix some of it.
IMHO uninformed choice is not a strategic choice at all - if you don't know why you should pick one choice or another and how it affects your situation in a game, then you can't make a strategic decision.

http://na. leagueoflegends .com/board/showthread.php?t=293417http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417
[QUOTE="Tom Cadwell" (Zileas)]
Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on.
...
However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration.
...
In summary, all mechanics have some burden of knowledge, and as game designers, we seek to design skills in a way that gives us a lot of gameplay, for not too much burden of knowledge. If we get a lot more gameplay from something, we are willing to take on more burden of knowledge -- but for a given mechanic, we want to have as little burden of knowledge as possible
[/QUOTE]
Funny thing, Stardock makes a "VERY common" noob mistake.
 
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I wouldn't be so quick to write off Elemental: Fallen Enchantress.

Derek Paxton (Kael) is in charge and he clearly knows what he is doing.

I have played the Beta, and I don't believe Kael is the boss of the development. If he was indeed calling the shots, I would expect him to write those progress reports, but Brad (Frogboy) writes them instead. Why? Because WOM/FE is his beloved baby, and he loves it so much he's gonna smother it. I played FFH2 and I consider it to be an amazing mod. It inherits some limitations of Civ4, but the amount of work put into the lore and those clever twists that make factions different are nothing short of amazing. Armageddon counter? Brilliant! Why FE does not have anything like that?

WOM was broken by design, as someone wrote before, it was an inconsistent bag of features that did not stick together. Like in that old tale where a cat and a dog baked a cake and threw in everything they liked, because everything good combined equals super-good cake. FE changes are, sadly, just cosmetic.

You have city building, but the layouts you create do not matter at all. You have tactical battles on featureless boring grids where units just trade blows till one side falls. No flanking, no resistances, no special traits, no unit cooperation and combos, nothing. When you defend a city, the city walls are not there, nor the buildings. City walls are actually not built AROUND the city, but as a separate building somewhere on the outskirts. LAME! Master of Magic had meh combat too, but at least the myriads of traits gave units unique taste. What else? You have heroes that can all become super-everything in the end. You have oceans and rivers, but no ships nor other uses of them. And you have a few spells, but they are either overpowered damage-dealers, or not-woth-casting strategic spells. Initiative system is flawed, so you can rack up bonuses and burn whole enemy army with an AoE spell BEFORE they actually have a chance to move. The UI is inconsistent, with poor color schemes (dark blue on black?)

This whole mess IMO comes from Brads belief that WoM was a fundamentally good game that just needed a bit of polish and love. IMO, this is wrong. The horrible disaster that was its launch should make it clear that WoM is broken by design, and I hoped the devs understood that and let Kael throw the crap out and build new, solid gameplay mechanics. I was clealy wrong, he just wrote a few quests and flavor texts, plus gave ideas like initiative system. Therefore, I don't see a way FE could be a huge success - sure, it can sell OK to people who will play anything fantasy/turn based at best, or it can be a similar disaster as WOM. Too bad, I liked Stardock and Galciv2 and Sins and all...
 
No manual, no tooltips in the game, convoluted formulas... A common mistake in all Stardock's games. Well, now at least they hired Soren Johnson who wrote that article, so maybe they'll fix some of it.
IMHO uninformed choice is not a strategic choice at all - if you don't know why you should pick one choice or another and how it affects your situation in a game, then you can't make a strategic decision.

Stardock hired Soren Johnson? I don't see any news about this. I know they got Jon Shafer but Soren? Really?
 
This whole mess IMO comes from Brads belief that WoM was a fundamentally good game that just needed a bit of polish and love. IMO, this is wrong. The horrible disaster that was its launch should make it clear that WoM is broken by design, and I hoped the devs understood that and let Kael throw the crap out and build new, solid gameplay mechanics. I was clealy wrong, he just wrote a few quests and flavor texts, plus gave ideas like initiative system. Therefore, I don't see a way FE could be a huge success - sure, it can sell OK to people who will play anything fantasy/turn based at best, or it can be a similar disaster as WOM. Too bad, I liked Stardock and Galciv2 and Sins and all...
It's called a Dunning-Kruger effect.
Incompetent Brad is not competent enough to understand that he's indeed incompetent.

I don't understand why Brad hires TWO game designers for one game, and then grounds them both while keeping everything for himself. Including the AI by the way.

Stardock hired Soren Johnson? I don't see any news about this. I know they got Jon Shafer but Soren? Really?
Ops, my mistake. They both worked at Firaxis IIRC.
 
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By the way, i checked my *Link deleted* and now i remember the reason why Elemental looks like a clump of a random features.

Despite numerous complaints about the lack of content in the beta, brad kept saying during the beta that the only difficulty is the engine and he'll add the content in a month or less. What does it mean?

1) Quantity instead of quality - a lot of fluff ("content" you can do with XML) instead of interesting gameplay mechanics (code).
2) No playtest - if you add content in a last second, you can't test it if it's played as intended, is it fun etc.
3) No game balance - if you add content in a last second, you have zero time to balance it.
4) Incoherent design - no time to make content to add up to a thrilling gameplay. Basically, you get almost all bad stuff from a Zileas' article i mentioned abovehttp://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417.
5) Bad understanding of the basics of game design. People were talking that there is no content that can be played with (game mechanics) while Brad kept saying that he can add two sword textures in an addition to a club texture that already was in beta.
 
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In general I think FE exists because Brad promised Free-Expansions after the WoM disaster. He even promised 2 free expansions for all the WoM Preorderers even he stopped talking about a possible second expansion lately.

He is someone who keep his words (good thing in general for sure!) but he is also a person communicates things too fast (=very bad combination!). I think this is a mayor problem for stardock development! Brad promise something and later they find out it works better without/another solution but can't switch to it because of the promise/keep word problem...

I like the open discussions but it makes it hard to make the whole game somehow consistent. I'm a software developer/architect by myself and I can compare it with the situation that we (as a developer team) have a plan to do a solution on a very good way but several different business people means to participate and for sure everyone has its own (non-technical) approach with a lot of paradoxes inside. On the end we usually keep them busy with marginal things and get the stuff done in a good way ;)
 
It's called a Dunning-Kruger effect.
Incompetent Brad is not competent enough to understand that he's indeed incompetent.

Well, even though I am disappointed by both WoM and FE as it is, I don't think it's fair to call Brad incompetent. He pulled Galciv and Galciv 2, after all. The AI was good in GalCiv2, so he is probably a decent AI programmer. But he may not be the best game designer... or project leader, but he is honest (or seems to be), and that's a rare trait in today's world of corporate greed. So let's be graceful for that, after all - if FE fails, he of all people will be affected the most.
 
FE promises to have very good AI which is important in this kind of games. I doubt Warlock team has the same experience as Brad. However, WoM was boring game. Right now if you ask me about MoM feeling I'd recommend you to buy Civ4 (which is still more fun than Civ5) and Fall from Heaven mod. Poor AI, bland races, but it's fun as hell and you can open gate to hell and transform the world into Mordor.

Warlock seems to have less ambitions than FE and so it may become a platform for addons and mods - much like Europa Universalis 3. If you remember, EU3 was very simple and straightforward game right after release, but now we have a great game which I don't play only cause there's Magna Mundi on the way.
 
Right now if you ask me about MoM feeling I'd recommend you to buy Civ4 (which is still more fun than Civ5) and Fall from Heaven mod. Poor AI, bland races, but it's fun as hell and you can open gate to hell and transform the world into Mordor.

I haven't played Master of Manahttp://www.masterofmana.com/, but I heard it has much better AI than FFH (and even the name is similar to Master of Magic :))

(And I don't think base Civ4 is more fun than base Civ5, but Civ4 has far more interesting mods for sure, as the Civ5 ones aren't well developed yet, and the DLL source code is not yet available.)
 
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I haven't played Master of Mana, but I heard it has much better AI than FFH (and even the name is similar to Master of Magic :))

(And I don't think base Civ4 is more fun than base Civ5, but Civ4 has far more interesting mods for sure, as the Civ5 ones aren't well developed yet, and the DLL source code is not yet available.)

Interesting, mod with good AI?.. Thanks, I'll check it.

(Civ4 has more sides to gameplay like meaningful diplomacy, religion, spies, corporations and Leonard Nemoy. Civ5 has excellent city-state system and decent tactical combat that gets ugly when you get big armies, but lack of diplomacy and many other features is just sad)
 
Well, even though I am disappointed by both WoM and FE as it is, I don't think it's fair to call Brad incompetent. He pulled Galciv and Galciv 2, after all. The AI was good in GalCiv2, so he is probably a decent AI programmer. But he may not be the best game designer... or project leader, but he is honest (or seems to be), and that's a rare trait in today's world of corporate greed. So let's be graceful for that, after all - if FE fails, he of all people will be affected the most.
He was good when he needed a very simple space game (GalCiv is about as complex as Master of Orion, if you remove all the fluff, it actually has less major features). And it's much much easier for AI than a Civilization-type game (yet when i tried some GalCiv 2 expansion, AI was suiciding multiple constructors by trying to make a star base in my culture).

However, his skills obviously failed in a more complex game. He should have stepped aside and let Kael do the job, for that one game. Instead, Brad claims that he doesn't want to make game more interesting because it screws the AI... http://forums.elementalgame.com/417216/page/1/#3074623 And he hoards AI for himself. Isn't it kinda better to make the game better but change AI programmer then? Or at least to hire second AI programmer? I mean, if previous approach certainly failed, with all these 50% reviews for Elemental? Master of Magic and Fall From Heaven are popular because of these AI-unfriendly mechanics, so maybe it's the way to go, even if AI isn't that good in using all of them.
 
He says he can't make spells/abilities/combos etc. as meaningful as in MoM because he can't make AI for them.

Yes, I've seen this somewhere too. Understandable approach: you shouldn't have features that AI couldn't normally use. For GalCiv it gave us too "mechanical" gamplay. Player just couldn't do anything interesting that hasn't been illustrated in numbers. In Civilization there are features AI couldn't use without scripts and cheating, like understanding consequences of choosing government in Civ4 or spies. But those things are fun. Developing planets, starbases etc in GalCiv2 is not fun: you basically say "this is cultural starbase/planet" and then the only choice you make is adding defence there. Elemental had some features to stop it but you know jow it ended.
 
Frogboy said:
On GalCiv for OS/2, I got months and months to write AI. It was great. Each AI player got multiple background threads. One dedicated to near term issues and one for long-term strategy along with writing data to the drive that would let it learn from human players.

But as Stardock grew, the number of hours I could put on a single product declined. By the time of Elemental, I got about 30 days of AI coding in (for GalCiv II I got almost 4 months until Twilight when I handed it off to others).

For FE, I’ll get almost 4 months of AI time. That means I get to write both the strategic and the tactical AI. This has had the secondary effect of making the game much for multithreaded. There is no “Turn” screen in Fallen Enchantress. There is no stop in the action between turns because all the work is happening in the background.
(Link removed)
 
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