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Thread: Let's Create a Community Alternate Scenario

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    I can't see England starting with CBs on the duchies, since they are kinda busy on the home front with Scotland and Ireland seceding and also fighting dissatisfied English landlords. They're in a pretty horrible shape.
    They're in terrible shape because they're so overextended. It shouldn't be easy for them to even take one duchy, but they have the claims to try to press it in the early game (maybe with a series of decisions and events determining which duchies they acknowledge as independent and which they don't, so they're not at war with everyone at once). Some people might drop Scotland and Ireland and divert troops from the English lords to focus on grabbing a couple colonies, for instance - it makes the setup a bit more dynamic at the beginning.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    They're in terrible shape because they're so overextended. It shouldn't be easy for them to even take one duchy, but they have the claims to try to press it in the early game (maybe with a series of decisions and events determining which duchies they acknowledge as independent and which they don't, so they're not at war with everyone at once). Some people might drop Scotland and Ireland and divert troops from the English lords to focus on grabbing a couple colonies, for instance - it makes the setup a bit more dynamic at the beginning.
    I like that idea, but I don't think England can afford to ignore the British lords since they're practically up in their face.
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  3. #123
    England would be starting at war with the duchies though; they'd have to have some sort of war goal, maybe sphere or satellite goals, and either a release or conquest of Normandy goal for one of the French states ? Also, would the duchies be in alliance with each other in a coalition, or would they be infighting? We should also consider separating Occitania into two different countries, otherwise Occitania would probably dominate France. As to Brittany, I can agree with Danish Ceylon, but the Bretons here are fulfilling the role of the Dutch/Portuguese, and they would have had the funds to conquer that area, seeing as they hold some of Brazil's prime plantation lands.

    EDIT: Another thought occurred to me in regards to POPs: For the Astrakhan Khanate to be a threat to Russia, it would have to keep Astrakhan one of the centers of the Silk Road. That would mean a much more populous Astrakhan and probably a more populous steppe, stretching from Hungary to Mongolia. Likewise, this TL's Russia's southern provinces would be relatively depopulated due to the raids the Khanates would have inflicted upon it. The Balkans would most likely also have a much larger population as well due to the lessened conflict that would have occurred without Turkish domination of the region. If Timur never takes the Levant, I'd imagine a much bigger, more prosperous Baghdad and a more densely populated Levant. For Egypt to have remained competitive with the Caliphate(which I assume is based in Baghdad), it would have needed both be able to avoid the great number of plagues and famines that struck the region from the time of the POD, and some very competent leaders, meaning a much more densely populated Egypt as well. The greater relative stability and more focused administration(as compared to the Ottomans) of the Middle East would have probably resulted in stronger irrigation there as well, not to mention that they needed to feed a larger population. I imagine Arabia would also have a larger population if only because of a greater availability of grains. North Africa and Southern Spain would probably have bigger populations as well, as they would not have gone through as great famines as they went through and would not have stagnated demographically due to the Catholic Church, respectively.
    Last edited by EMT0; 04-02-2012 at 18:03.

  4. #124
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    1 -Eh, I'm really incapable of understanding the use of any paint program :\.
    Durrani never controlled Turkestan and their priority was to control, in fact, India as the Mughals did before them. Also I've given them much richer lands, so I suppose they wouldn't complain about that much. I would also give them a Sikh rebel problem just to spice things up, as they weren't famous for being tolerant fellas.

    2 - Europeans did seize coastal provinces to a much bigger and powerful Maratha, so the size I proposed isn't really an issue. Also Durrani and Mughal attacks could have weakened them in this timeframe (as they did IRL).

    3 - Well, Maybe it is, but I wanted to wank Tibet a little more since Assam too has cultural ties with Tibet. But you can give them to Burma if you prefer, on that I don't really have any credible objections.
    Here be dragons

  5. #125
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    What about this? Map
    I am reluctant to give Hyderabad to the Maratha though as that would probably make gameplay for southern India a bit less fun with huge menacing Maratha as your neighbour. But that's just me.
    Last edited by Dyranum; 04-02-2012 at 18:09.
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  6. #126
    I edited my previous post with what I thought of in regards to demographics, but I'll respost it here as well.

    Another thought occurred to me in regards to POPs: For the Astrakhan Khanate to be a threat to Russia, it would have to keep Astrakhan one of the centers of the Silk Road. That would mean a much more populous Astrakhan and probably a more populous steppe, stretching from Hungary to Mongolia. Likewise, this TL's Russia's southern provinces would be relatively depopulated due to the raids the Khanates would have inflicted upon it. The Balkans would most likely also have a much larger population as well due to the lessened conflict that would have occurred without Turkish domination of the region. If Timur never takes the Levant, I'd imagine a much bigger, more prosperous Baghdad and a more densely populated Levant. For Egypt to have remained competitive with the Caliphate(which I assume is based in Baghdad), it would have needed both be able to avoid the great number of plagues and famines that struck the region from the time of the POD, and some very competent leaders, meaning a much more densely populated Egypt as well.

    The greater relative stability and more focused administration(as compared to the Ottomans) of the Middle East would have probably resulted in stronger irrigation there as well, not to mention that they needed to feed a larger population. I imagine Arabia would also have a larger population if only because of a greater availability of grains. North Africa and Southern Spain would probably have bigger populations as well, as they would not have gone through as great famines as they went through and would not have stagnated demographically due to the Catholic Church, respectively. Likewise, Sicily would be more depopulated due to its serving as a battlefield, and I imagine that based on the size of the Marinid/Al-Andalus/Moroccan thingajaboob in Spain, the borders have been stable there for some time and that the population would not have been too terribly affected by this point in time. But I also think that populations in all of Iberia would be greater due to a lack of demographic stagnation. Not sure about France on that matter though.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    What about this? Map
    I am reluctant to give Hyderabad to the Maratha though as that would probably make gameplay for southern India a bit less fun with huge menacing Maratha as your neighbour. But that's just me.
    Well, It's actually better than my proposal, while I would give some Persian cultured provinces back to the rump Persian states, just the southernwest two. Durrani looks menacing, but also fairly fragile which is pretty cool.

    On a second thought, I like you Maratha better as it would allow southern Indian states to war among them to form Dravidistan and try to unite India if they wish so.

    About mission/cores/decisions, I would give the Maratha a decision that lets them acquire accepted cultures if they have a given % of a total unaccepted pop, since my idea would be for them to be unable to form either Hindustan or Dravidistan. Mughals and Durrani can form Hindustan (while I like having the Mughal Empire tag on my game, it's probably better this way), while the southern states can form Dravidistan (Hydebarad too).
    Here be dragons

  8. #128
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    In regards to the populations and cultures. There would probably be more "Greeks" since there are three Byzantine successors. Also, we probably wouldn't have the Ottoman massacres, which makes even more Greeks too. Not that they would call themselves Greeks though. They would be calling themselves "Rhomaios" or something similar (not that good with Greek word-formation).

    Quote Originally Posted by HabemusZlatan View Post
    Well, It's actually better than my proposal, while I would give some Persian cultured provinces back to the rump Persian states, just the southernwest two. Durrani looks menacing, but also fairly fragile which is pretty cool.
    But that would make them so vanilla and we don't want that, eh?
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    In regards to the populations and cultures. There would probably be more "Greeks" since there are three Byzantine successors. Also, we probably wouldn't have the Ottoman massacres, which makes even more Greeks too. Not that they would call themselves Greeks though. They would be calling themselves "Rhomaios" or something similar (not that good with Greek word-formation).



    But that would make them so vanilla and we don't want that, eh?
    It's just that Persia looks so weak. But you win nonetheless, it's probably better like this.

    P.S. Loadsa Greeks and Armenians actually. Coastal regions would be mostly Greek if I may suggest so. (P.S. The word is Rhomaioi or Romioi)
    Here be dragons

  10. #130
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    So, here's a map: Map
    I've moved around the Durrani mostly and created a third Persian state.
    Now, what Europeans should get the white holdings?

    EDIT: Here's a crazy idea: what about a Georgo-Armenian Empire?

    EDIT2:
    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    England would be starting at war with the duchies though; they'd have to have some sort of war goal, maybe sphere or satellite goals, and either a release or conquest of Normandy goal for one of the French states ? Also, would the duchies be in alliance with each other in a coalition, or would they be infighting? We should also consider separating Occitania into two different countries, otherwise Occitania would probably dominate France.
    I disagree, we need some sort of counterweight to Burgundy. Besides, there is no France for Occitania to dominate. Even if France has some sort of resurgence, I doubt the Occitanians would be considered French.
    Last edited by Dyranum; 04-02-2012 at 18:40.
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  11. #131
    True, so would Occitan be like Hungarian or Polish, a standalone cultural union? Would there be a Northern French cultural union? The point about Burgundy is also true; we could also make the decision to form a quasi-united German state require require only sphere control of all of the independent North German/German states save for Austria so as to make it easier for Saxony to serve as a counterweight to Burgundy. Part of me also wants to send the Pope to Avignon so as to buff the Neapolitan state against Austria by giving it control of Rome.

    This brings into question how and which cultural unions will be in this mod.

    I like the idea of a Georgo-Armenian Empire, part of me wants to throw Trebizond into it also, but nah. Let's make it Georgo-Armenia, it would make more sense as to why a Christian state survived so long when surrounded by Muslim states. Should probably also make them allies of the Knights of St. John and the Uber-Commonwealth also.

  12. #132
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    You know, I think we should keep the rump-France as the French cultural union, which would make them capable of absorbing that small greenish one-province state which they border. Then also give them cores on Aquitania, Normandy and Picardy. However, Aquitania would be Occitan cultured so I guess Occitania should have cores on them too. So...yeah. France is a bit confusing, mostly because it is an utter mess due to the collapse of England.

    Also, I love how we've got a multitude of strong Muslim states, in stark contrast to some others.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    You know, I think we should keep the rump-France as the French cultural union, which would make them capable of absorbing that small greenish one-province state which they border. Then also give them cores on Aquitania, Normandy and Picardy. However, Aquitania would be Occitan cultured so I guess Occitania should have cores on them too. So...yeah. France is a bit confusing, mostly because it is an utter mess due to the collapse of England.

    Also, I love how we've got a multitude of strong Muslim states, in stark contrast to some others.
    Speaking of strong Muslim states, I think it goes without saying that we'd have a Westernized Morocco, but would any other Muslim state start Westernized, and if not, how close would the Muslim states be to Westernizing?

  14. #134
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Now that is a really tricky matter, which will require a lot of thought I think. I suppose the two Turkish states in Anatolia would be unciv, along with the mass of states on the Arabian peninsula. The rest however, not so sure.

    EDIT: Wouldn't putting the Papal State in Avignon muck up Occitania's borders though? It is smack dab in Occitania and a rather large province at that.

    EDIT2: Anyways, who would have the various blank holdings in India?
    Last edited by Dyranum; 04-02-2012 at 20:16.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    Now that is a really tricky matter, which will require a lot of thought I think. I suppose the two Turkish states in Anatolia would be unciv, along with the mass of states on the Arabian peninsula. The rest however, not so sure.

    EDIT: Wouldn't putting the Papal State in Avignon muck up Occitania's borders though? It is smack dab in Occitania and a rather large province at that.

    EDIT2: Anyways, who would have the various blank holdings in India?
    India: No idea, but I'm thinking we could edit Avignon's borders so as to make it smaller than it presently is.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    I like that idea, but I don't think England can afford to ignore the British lords since they're practically up in their face.
    You could try to fight a mainly defensive war in England, though (giving up on Scotland and Ireland and concentrating the rest of the troops on stopping English lord advances), while restraining the French duchies - which are also pretty close if they have a navy.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    England would be starting at war with the duchies though; they'd have to have some sort of war goal, maybe sphere or satellite goals, and either a release or conquest of Normandy goal for one of the French states ? Also, would the duchies be in alliance with each other in a coalition, or would they be infighting? We should also consider separating Occitania into two different countries, otherwise Occitania would probably dominate France. As to Brittany, I can agree with Danish Ceylon, but the Bretons here are fulfilling the role of the Dutch/Portuguese, and they would have had the funds to conquer that area, seeing as they hold some of Brazil's prime plantation lands.
    With AHD, I think wargoals can be a lot more nuanced with event triggers. I think their main goals would be to sphere (or satellite, depending on the case and how reasonable it is gameplay wise) the duchies, take colonies, and maybe get Normandy, Picardy, and Gascony. They would also want to crush any liberal movements.

    As for the alliances - well, my idea of the types of states (not sure which ones would correspond to which geographic states) would be:
    - Duchies where authority is in the hands of revolutionary councils (republics, mob rule, a small consulate, whatever) that rose up against the English and absolutist rule.
    - Duchies lead by liberal dukes and ministers who sided with the revolution.
    - Duchies lead by smart dukes and ministers who pretend to side with the revolution to placate the people and to gain power.
    - Duchies lead by dukes who are looking to expand their power (or maybe just don't like English rule) and see that the time is right to declare independence now, keeping distant from the revolutionaries.

    Some of the more moderate revolutionaries (or more realpolitik ones) would perhaps be in the same war and allied with the more liberal duchies. Maybe there'd be paths for fighting between some of the strong absolutist dukes and the more ideologically zealous revolutionaries - especially when war is over with the English.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    True, so would Occitan be like Hungarian or Polish, a standalone cultural union? Would there be a Northern French cultural union? The point about Burgundy is also true; we could also make the decision to form a quasi-united German state require require only sphere control of all of the independent North German/German states save for Austria so as to make it easier for Saxony to serve as a counterweight to Burgundy. Part of me also wants to send the Pope to Avignon so as to buff the Neapolitan state against Austria by giving it control of Rome.

    This brings into question how and which cultural unions will be in this mod.
    Hmm, perhaps:
    - France (it's still a viable union, although perhaps with conditions making it unlikely to happen and hard to get by accident with events and decisions).
    - Moorish-America, Anglo-America, various Franco-America, etc. union states for the revolters there.
    - China (including some of the independent states, but probably not Yunnan or Sichuan)
    - the Celtic states
    - Scandinavia (but with Denmark-Norway and Sweden likely to stay pretty powerful, probably not too likely to occur for the exact opposite reason it's unlikely to occur in vanilla)
    - The Eastern Roman Empire.
    - The Mongol Empire.
    - Japan.
    - Arabia.
    -Some nation out of the Holy Roman Empire (probably a very-different-Germany)
    - Turkey.
    - Spain/Iberia.
    - Italy
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    Speaking of strong Muslim states, I think it goes without saying that we'd have a Westernized Morocco, but would any other Muslim state start Westernized, and if not, how close would the Muslim states be to Westernizing?
    I think maybe have the state with control of Constantinople be close to westernizing, along with the main Caliphate or Egypt (while the other one of the two has a manpower or tech advantage to counter this).
    I'd actually suggest having the Tsardom/Grand Duchy of Russia be an unciv very close to westernizing (cut off from Europe with strong reasons to deal with the Orient a lot, with no Peter the Great or an equivalent, Russia would be a more eastward focused, less modernized country to begin with [at least not in the Western model of things]. To Europe, it is just an Orthodox Khanate, but it's expansion and progress is bringing it up to western standards and its ascension will imbalance European politics in the early game.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    EDIT: Wouldn't putting the Papal State in Avignon muck up Occitania's borders though? It is smack dab in Occitania and a rather large province at that.
    Crazy-me says we could just have an Avignonan Papacy as the rulers of Occitania after populist rebels overthrew the duchy and set up a constitutional monarchy (well, papacy) with the leader they actually trust and support (I'm not sure how to justify this against Catholic England, though - although we could always have a Protestant England or some other schisms - or maybe just a Protestant duke who takes over the largely Catholic duchy and tries to lead it to rebellion against the English only to have it backfire on him horribly), but that's just because Crazy-me is crazy.
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  17. #137
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    A little question: I see two byzantine rump states in the map, is one of them Bulgarian in culture? Also, is Serbia considered a Byzantine rump state or is it out of the game?
    Here be dragons

  18. #138
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    I have been watching this mod pretty closely and I am really loving what I am seeing. If I may I would like to toss some ideas into the ring so to speak which I believe do not infringe too badly on things already established.

    First one.

    It may not be as plausible as other ideas but I feel like it would certainly add good flavor.

    Because the Russians are hemmed in defensively in Eastern Europe and therefore much more eastward focused they have colonized NA considerably more than IOTL, that is already established. What if it were taken a step further? Basically, the tradition of conflict and rivalry in Europe spurs much greater eastward migration, substantially more than OTL but not ridiculously so. Some barons even decide it is a far more profitable venture to abandon Eurasia entirely and move to the New World, bringing entire communities with them. This in turn leads to a much greater Russian presence on the Pacific Coast, especially in Columbia down to Northern California. Over time the "Farthest East" of the empire grows more autonomous and powerful due to distance and economic prosperity brought about by the better climate. At some point close to game start some noble rises to gather enough strength and is able to declare himself Emperor over a Pacific, culturally Russian empire, somewhat similar to OTL Brazil. It would be state compromising all former Russian holdings in North America. There would be lingering resentment among the Eurasian Russia which could enact certain decisions later on the try to reclaim it while the Pacific Russia (no idea for a name) could have a manifest destiny based on an eastern perspective, maybe decisions to end the monarchy at some point, perhaps even irredentist movements to "reclaim" parts of Pacific Siberia.

    Second one.

    This idea is based on the context of Celtic nations being independent and being quasi-colonizers/explorers for a period of time. I'm less sure about this idea because I am uncertain as to their current status in the mod, but I'll say it anyway.

    This is another European exile state idea. It can be Scottish or Irish, I really don't care I just like the idea of the culture being Celtic. The idea is that parts of Australia and New Zealand are settled by said Celts during the early 1600s or so during a less aggressive and more exploratory period in their history. Later on when either Ireland comes to be dominated by England/Britain or Scotland is forced/joins into the UK, another colony hungry power (I was thinking Sweden) moves in and swipes the Scot/Ire colony in the tumult of power change. The many of the local Euro population in Oceania flee to New Zealand forming two states one on each island (historical similarities pretty obvious here). I think the possibility of a union would be very cool here, said unionfier would have to fight back the Swedes a bit to form and then get a decision to have cores across all of Oceania.

    Last one.

    This came to me as I was writing and I think I have heard similar strains of this idea on this thread before. But I really like this concept of a powerful Songhai or Mali (whichever one makes the most sense, I personally like Songhai though because it has a cooler name IMO) state being in position to civilize ala an OTL Japan style westernization process. This process and back-story could be positively influenced by Morocco being a long time northern trade partner, further sparked by realization of European advancement.

    Sorry for the long post, just a couple things that came to mind as I was reading the threads today. Some of this is a recycling of things I've always thought about as cool alt history while other bits are things I've always wished to do in Vicky 2. Anyway great looking mod, I look forward to it.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by rednax7 View Post
    I have been watching this mod pretty closely and I am really loving what I am seeing. If I may I would like to toss some ideas into the ring so to speak which I believe do not infringe too badly on things already established.

    First one.

    It may not be as plausible as other ideas but I feel like it would certainly add good flavor.

    Because the Russians are hemmed in defensively in Eastern Europe and therefore much more eastward focused they have colonized NA considerably more than IOTL, that is already established. What if it were taken a step further? Basically, the tradition of conflict and rivalry in Europe spurs much greater eastward migration, substantially more than OTL but not ridiculously so. Some barons even decide it is a far more profitable venture to abandon Eurasia entirely and move to the New World, bringing entire communities with them. This in turn leads to a much greater Russian presence on the Pacific Coast, especially in Columbia down to Northern California. Over time the "Farthest East" of the empire grows more autonomous and powerful due to distance and economic prosperity brought about by the better climate. At some point close to game start some noble rises to gather enough strength and is able to declare himself Emperor over a Pacific, culturally Russian empire, somewhat similar to OTL Brazil. It would be state compromising all former Russian holdings in North America. There would be lingering resentment among the Eurasian Russia which could enact certain decisions later on the try to reclaim it while the Pacific Russia (no idea for a name) could have a manifest destiny based on an eastern perspective, maybe decisions to end the monarchy at some point, perhaps even irredentist movements to "reclaim" parts of Pacific Siberia.
    I was thinking something along those lines, although for a technical "Republic" (but perhaps a more Napoleonic Empire styled Republic) declaring independence if Russia ignores them too much, based in North America with tenuous control over Kamchatka (with their "win" likely to include giving up all Eurasian territories in exchange for freedom in America)

    Second one.

    This idea is based on the context of Celtic nations being independent and being quasi-colonizers/explorers for a period of time. I'm less sure about this idea because I am uncertain as to their current status in the mod, but I'll say it anyway.

    This is another European exile state idea. It can be Scottish or Irish, I really don't care I just like the idea of the culture being Celtic. The idea is that parts of Australia and New Zealand are settled by said Celts during the early 1600s or so during a less aggressive and more exploratory period in their history. Later on when either Ireland comes to be dominated by England/Britain or Scotland is forced/joins into the UK, another colony hungry power (I was thinking Sweden) moves in and swipes the Scot/Ire colony in the tumult of power change. The many of the local Euro population in Oceania flee to New Zealand forming two states one on each island (historical similarities pretty obvious here). I think the possibility of a union would be very cool here, said unionfier would have to fight back the Swedes a bit to form and then get a decision to have cores across all of Oceania.
    Scotland was a possible colonizer in OTL, so I think it would be them (Ireland was long having troubles with England) - not sure about Oceania, though. Due to the Moroccan presence, I think we've been trying to cut back on colonial presences past the Americas and Africa though - it would be hard for a small colonizing power to get established there.

    Last one.

    This came to me as I was writing and I think I have heard similar strains of this idea on this thread before. But I really like this concept of a powerful Songhai or Mali (whichever one makes the most sense, I personally like Songhai though because it has a cooler name IMO) state being in position to civilize ala an OTL Japan style westernization process. This process and back-story could be positively influenced by Morocco being a long time northern trade partner, further sparked by realization of European advancement.
    Yeah, with Morocco civilized I think there's some room for more powerful/semi-westernized African nations.

    Edit:
    A little question: I see two byzantine rump states in the map, is one of them Bulgarian in culture? Also, is Serbia considered a Byzantine rump state or is it out of the game?
    I think the two Byzantine states are Greece and Bulgaria, but I don't know what they'd consider their cultures to be after all these years.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by HabemusZlatan View Post
    A little question: I see two byzantine rump states in the map, is one of them Bulgarian in culture? Also, is Serbia considered a Byzantine rump state or is it out of the game?
    I would say that the Byzantine state in Bulgaria would have Bulgarian as Accepted Culture. Not that there would be that many actual Bulgarians left after over 1000 years of hellenification. They were quite hellenified IOTL in 1200, and that was while being an independent state.
    "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling." —Shynka

    Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (primary), and Juriste Aléatoire (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (retired), Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
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