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Thread: Let's Create a Community Alternate Scenario

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    I think the Turks will not be a majority in Anatolia what with how this history has gone. Or at least "real" Turks. The Constantinople Turks will probably be heavily hellenised. Heck, we might even be able to include them into the states capable of forming the ERE. They could very well be Christian too. Not too implausible, though depending on how the state arose of course. I guess it would be due to a Byzantine Civil War, coupled with Caliphate invasion. The Caliphate establish a state in Anatolia with Islam as its primary and only religion. The Christian Turks really don't like this, and revolt from the Islamic Turkish state. They beat back Caliphate and Muslim Turkish attacks, securing those borders and then going off to conquer Anatolia from a Byzantine splinter state. And that's where we are in 1836. Something like that maybe? Forming the ERE would go like normal culture unions (if we're including the Christian Turks that is). So, you'd have to get all three states in SoI and core lands owned by the Muslim Turks.

    This of course sets us up with fun situations like a Turkish-led Christian ERE.

    As for the Georgo-Armenian Empire, we could make it a Union, but we could also make it like Austria-Hungry.

    EDIT: About Northern Brazil: we didn't discuss that at all, actually.
    So I take it the Constantinople-based Turkish state will be grouped under the Turkish culture group, but be Christian and have Greeks as an accepted culture? Based on what we've discussed, I'd imagine something like this:

    Bulgarian state:
    Primary: Greek
    Accepted: Bulgarian

    Part of me wants to just say to hell with it and call all Bulgarians Greeks though; it's been a LONG time that they've essentially been a Greek kingdom, I have a hard time seeing Bulgarians surviving as a standalone people. Sort of like the idea of seeing an independent Leonese state ripped off 1800s Spain, there's no one to really call Leonese anymore.

    Epirus-derived state:
    Primary: Greek
    (No love for Albanians?)

    Constantinople Turks:
    Primary: Hellenified Turkish culture
    Accepted: Greek

    Konya Turks:
    Primary: Turkish
    Accepted: Kurdish(?)
    (With the possibility of adding Hellenefied Turk, and maybe even Azeri?)

    Trebizond:
    Primary: Greek

    Knights:
    Primary: Crusader culture(name pending)
    Accepted: (maybe Mayan, if we add a possibility of reintegrating the Mayan Order at some later point?)

    Georgo-Armenian Empire:
    Primary: Georgian
    Accepted: Armenian, and with a very long, painful event chain, Azeri

    The culture groups could be:

    Greek:
    Greek

    (West) Turkic:
    Turkish
    Azeri
    Kurdish(I know, I know, not linguistically, but culturally?)

    Caucasian:
    Georgian
    Armenian
    North Caucasian?

    Then, to form Byzantium, the primary culture must be Hellenefied Turkish or Greek, so that if formed by the Helleno-Turks, their Primary and Accepted cultures wouldn't change, while if formed by Greek states, we throw in a very big assimilation modifier on the Hellenefied Turk POPs to simulate what would most likely happen if Byzantium formed? Also, what would the cores for Byzantium be? Would the Greek states have to simply be overly dominant(ie, GP and own all the other Hellenic states in their SoI) to declare Byzantium, or would they also have to drive the Konya Turks back and take what appears to be Smyrna from the Knights?

    Meanwhile, we could give the Konya Turks the possibility of forming the Turkish Empire if they turn the Hellenized Turkish state into a puppet(not SoI, this would be a union done by the sword and not be the pen), and also take, maybe a state off of the Georgo-Armenia and being civilized? We could give the Turkish state the ability to enact a pan-Turk decision that gives it liberation CBs on all of Greater Azerbaijan and Smyrna even, with a decision that if all of the Central Asian states from Astrakhan to the Mongol border are in your SOI and in control of certain provinces, you can turn them into a unified puppet Tatar state. Although this one is a bit of a stretch IMO.

  2. #182
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Well, we could just do without the Bulgarians, yes. There probably wouldn't be that big of a Bulgarian identity ITTL.

    I would say that the Konya Turks get cores on large swathes of Helleno-Turkish Anatolia. The Helleno-Turks would probably get cores on the Konya Turks too.

    As for the culture groups: I say we do the Greek culture group like this: Greeks and Helleno-Turks
    That would make the ERE like a normal culture union, though I guess if it was formed by the Greeks that the Helleno-Turks would be assimilated, yes.

    The ERE cores would roughly include Greater Epirus, Bulgaria, the Helleno-Turks and the Konya Turks. Upon formation, it would gain additional cores, such as on Trebizond and that one Anatolian province of the Knights.

    As for the culture of the Konya Turks: I doubt they would have Helleno-Turks as accepted culture. They would more likely be focusing on assimilating them.

    Now, for Epirus and the Albanians: No idea, I guess Albanians could be an accepted culture of Epirus though.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    Well, we could just do without the Bulgarians, yes. There probably wouldn't be that big of a Bulgarian identity ITTL.

    I would say that the Konya Turks get cores on large swathes of Helleno-Turkish Anatolia. The Helleno-Turks would probably get cores on the Konya Turks too.

    As for the culture groups: I say we do the Greek culture group like this: Greeks and Helleno-Turks
    That would make the ERE like a normal culture union, though I guess if it was formed by the Greeks that the Helleno-Turks would be assimilated, yes.

    The ERE cores would roughly include Greater Epirus, Bulgaria, the Helleno-Turks and the Konya Turks. Upon formation, it would gain additional cores, such as on Trebizond and that one Anatolian province of the Knights.

    As for the culture of the Konya Turks: I doubt they would have Helleno-Turks as accepted culture. They would more likely be focusing on assimilating them.

    Now, for Epirus and the Albanians: No idea, I guess Albanians could be an accepted culture of Epirus though.
    Alright then. As to why that chunk of Brazil isn't Portuguese, the reason is that if we're going with the idea of Moroccan domination of the South, they'd most likely have turned in a slightly different direction, hence why the Portuguese South. I don't think Portugal can maintain two settler/plantation colonies ITTL, IMO. So I gave it to the Two Sicilies, who are relatively wealthy and powerful and actually have a legitimate chance of getting through the Moroccans consistently enough that they could establish a settler colony. I can't imagine that they'd always be at war, so I don't think it's too unreasonable if we also have Tuscan Southern Brazil.

    Anyway, I did a few modifications to what at this point is probably going to be the map that we are going to start off with initially, and with most modifications probably being minor(or in the case of Africa, once we get somebody to contribute who knows something about West Africa). I put in a tentative Songhai and got rid of Sokoto, let Oman keep Mogadishu but made everything else they owned in Africa part of an independent Zanzibar Sultanate, gave the tiny terra nullis islands in the Dutch East Indies to the Dutch and tentatively, the Galapagos to the Inca. I also gave the Knights Goa. Other than that, no changes, although I'd like to establish who used to own Central America. At the moment, it looks a bit out of place without some more backstory.

    I also realized that making someone go through what is now 10 pages of posts would be cruel and would also scare off potential contributors, so I'm going to be updating the first page to give a bit of history and current progress, although I'd like some input as to what to edit into the front page. I'm thinking:

    -Intro and brief Mission Statement
    -The current map as of *date*
    -A brief explanation of the map's history(of the actual scenario's history, not of how we debated, haggled, negotiated, and discussed our way to where we are as of today )
    -Explanation of how one can contribute
    -Original Post underneath

    communitymodcurrentmap.png
    Last edited by EMT0; 08-02-2012 at 23:12.

  4. #184
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Well, I've done some changes in Indonesia. I'll put up a map tomorrow.
    Also, you should give the remains of Omani Africa to Yemen.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
    Creator and GM of: Dark Horizons, Dark Horizons 2.0, Pure Madness, The Countries of an Alternate World, Twenty Thousand Leagues Over the Sea, Pure Madness 2: We couldn't decide on a subtitle
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  5. #185
    Alright, although I actually just updated my post with the current tentative details, including a map as of right now. May want to look that over, although a list of changes is found in the second paragraph of my post.

  6. #186
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Right, here's the map: Link
    Ignore the two states in west africa. I just randomly put them there (well, actually just one of them) during the discussions about Songhai, going by a few maps of the Songhai Empire.
    Please do also note that there are a few small islands which I've changed owner of.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
    Creator and GM of: Dark Horizons, Dark Horizons 2.0, Pure Madness, The Countries of an Alternate World, Twenty Thousand Leagues Over the Sea, Pure Madness 2: We couldn't decide on a subtitle
    Co-Creator and GM of: Kingdoms and Khanates
    Nations played in Nation Games: Guatemala/FNCA (WiR1861), Serbia (WiR1900), France (WiR1900), Terran Ascendancy(DH2), Commune of France(Kaiserreich), Basileia Rhomaion (KaK), DPRK (WiR2020), RSFSR and associates (BoP1920:TTY), Harad (LotR), Armenia (DDD), DPRK (PM2), Romania/Rhomânia! (WiR1901), DPRK (WiR2020 Mk.II)

  7. #187
    Alright, I've updated the first post and have provisionally declared your map the current map for the scenario as of today's date. We have something we can work with now; the question is, where do we start? I'm not asking for anybody to physically contribute to modding at the moment, just wanting some advice as to where to start tackling the project from.

    At the moment, I'm thinking of editing current ingame tags that won't be used(such as, say, Palestine or the Manhattan Commune) to function as countries not in the base game or editing countries that are something else(for example, Morocco), to something it is ITTL(we never really did decide on a name for TTL's Morocco, did we?)

    EDIT: On second thought, we're still waiting on PDM's AHD release at the moment. What could we work with so as to make some headway?
    Last edited by EMT0; 09-02-2012 at 23:10.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    Alright, I've updated the first post and have provisionally declared your map the current map for the scenario as of today's date. We have something we can work with now; the question is, where do we start? I'm not asking for anybody to physically contribute to modding at the moment, just wanting some advice as to where to start tackling the project from.

    At the moment, I'm thinking of editing current ingame tags that won't be used(such as, say, Palestine or the Manhattan Commune) to function as countries not in the base game or editing countries that are something else(for example, Morocco), to something it is ITTL(we never really did decide on a name for TTL's Morocco, did we?)

    EDIT: On second thought, we're still waiting on PDM's AHD release at the moment. What could we work with so as to make some headway?
    I'm not sure what people would be best at making headway in, but here's some things that could probably be worked on right now:
    - Flags and names for countries (and tags as well, I guess) under various government types. Other localization as needed (what's Prussian Constitutionalism in this timeline?). Political party localization.
    - Provinces (cores/ownership/control) mapping (PDM might change some of the RGO's and the like, but just making sure we have all the provinces ready and cores known would be handy - also, national capitals)
    - Events and decisions should still be fairly compatible with PDM no matter what (for basic events and decisions that don't need to be integrated into everything else, or which might conflict with stuff used in PDM's set of events and decisions).
    - Some OOB work, perhaps.

    A Manhattan Commune might still work... but if there's another country that could use the tag it is a pretty insignificant one. What are the countries we need, anyway?

    - Epirus:
    - Bulgaria:
    - At least one of the Mongol states:
    - Unnamed American Country 1:
    - Unnamed American Country 2:
    ...
    - The Knights Hospitaller:
    - The Knights of New Jerusalem (I'm really not sure how all the other knightly territory is divided around - maybe give it to several knightly orders which can later merge with themselves and the Vatican)
    - The Jagiellon Realm:
    - Burgundy:
    - Brittany, Occitania (in PDM - is Burgundy as well?):
    - England #2:
    -... okay, there's a lot.

    Changes:
    - Denmark -> Denmark-Norway?
    - The United Kingdom -> The United Kingdom (of England and France*)
    - The Netherlands -> ???
    - Morocco -> ???
    - Russian Empire -> possibly another name (Grand Duchy of Russia?)???
    - Would Tibet or Burma need renames?
    -...

    For China, how does this setup seem (to flesh it out a bit more, although not that much)? [from Dyranum's last map]

    The Main Independent Kingdoms:
    - Pale Yellow: China. All areas actually considered to be under the de-facto rule of the Chinese Emperor.
    - Light Blue: The Kingdom of Dali. Independent since the fall of the Yuan Dynasty (since I don't think butterflies can get to it fast enough to have it not fall to Kublai Khan as a sidenote to the invasion of China).
    - Light Grey: The Kingdom of Shu(?). Independent since the Manchurian invasions. A border province of the Ming-analogue Dynasty into which loyalist generals fled, eventually to form its own independent state as another dynasty rose to power in China proper (which saw them as being a good buffer against the Mongols and Tibetans, so there wasn't a big push to invade).

    The North (everything above the brown, grey, and yellow countries)
    - Dark Blue, Neon Green, and the inland Green-Brown: Warlords. Powerful border generals have taken over these states. Substates of China, but with decisions allowing them to fairly peacefully (or without a very major threat of retaliation - China can try to stop it, but won't most of the time) break free as totally independent states given foreign influence or some combination of unciv-reforms. Perhaps with an intermediate step of becoming simply a satellite state.
    - Purple: A powerful governor or set of local authorities (maybe a family that has become powerful in government, or even a branch of the ruling dynasty which used its connections to get a power base that is fairly autonomous from the empire as a whole). Substate of China.
    - Teal-ish: Rebels. Although command is nominally in the hands of the local governor, a growing rebel movement uses the territory as their base for the eventual overthrow of China. China and the northern (dark blue) warlord can take decisions to intervene (which will start a war between the dark blue warlord, as China's military force in the region, and the rebels*. It allows the threat to be neutralized, but empowers dark-blue-warlord more than China might want** and has a chance of failing embarrassingly).

    * I'm not sure if it still works in AHD, but in vanilla you can start and end wars just fine between satellites (but it has to be by events and decisions - in this case, it should be fairly simple to make reasonable victory conditions for both sides).
    ** China would be able to intervene directly after taking care of the Purple state, which would require some administrative reform and warfare (because when China declares its centralization of the region, it would resist).

    The South
    - Brown: The people's state, a dysfunctional corrupt democracy (but hey, better than nothing). Completely independent from China.
    - Black: Basically ruled by pirates. Nominal ownership might be to a governor of Guangdong, but the pirates run the show. Enough naval tech to compete with the Maritime focused Chinese Empire. Ally to China, with events and decisions allowing the emperor to try to put an end to the trade disrupting piracy or for European powers to invade (first just to get rid of the troublesome pirates, who are usually on good terms and like to trade with the West but tend to have high fees and tributes for safe passage, but then because it's a nice set of ports to gain).
    - Blue/Purple (next to Black): Again, a state nominally under the control of local governors but really ruled by rebels. Allied with China, but probably with events to set up for a war (making them simply a puppet) when China decides to stamp out the rebels.
    - Pink: Part of the peasant's rebellion that was mainly just bandit warlords kicking out the Imperial authorities. While both the peasant republic and the Chinese Empire claim to have authority over the region, it's a puppet to the Kingdom of Dali.
    - Dark Yellow: A powerful warlord in the peasant republic (presidential dictatorship or even absolute monarchy - substate of the peasant's republic).
    Interactive AARs:
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    I'm not sure what people would be best at making headway in, but here's some things that could probably be worked on right now:
    - Flags and names for countries (and tags as well, I guess) under various government types. Other localization as needed (what's Prussian Constitutionalism in this timeline?). Political party localization.
    - Provinces (cores/ownership/control) mapping (PDM might change some of the RGO's and the like, but just making sure we have all the provinces ready and cores known would be handy - also, national capitals)
    - Events and decisions should still be fairly compatible with PDM no matter what (for basic events and decisions that don't need to be integrated into everything else, or which might conflict with stuff used in PDM's set of events and decisions).
    - Some OOB work, perhaps.
    Flags and names are a good idea. I'm wondering if we can start off with generic political parties at the very start ala DVG, and evolve from there? Political parties would have to be derived based on the history of this world and what we expect to happen in the future. Actually, it might be a good idea to create a rough TL for what 'history' is ITTL. Good idea on working with the provinces; AHD didn't add/subtract provinces while PDM only edits some slightly. I was actually wondering as to how to change a few of the Inca's RGOs to Precious Metals and increase the total population of their provinces by a decent amount also. I'll probably start sketching some rough histories, flags, and names while fine-tuning the map while we're waiting on PDM.

    A Manhattan Commune might still work... but if there's another country that could use the tag it is a pretty insignificant one. What are the countries we need, anyway?

    - Epirus:
    - Bulgaria:
    - At least one of the Mongol states:
    - Unnamed American Country 1:
    - Unnamed American Country 2:
    ...
    - The Knights Hospitaller:
    - The Knights of New Jerusalem (I'm really not sure how all the other knightly territory is divided around - maybe give it to several knightly orders which can later merge with themselves and the Vatican)
    - The Jagiellon Realm:
    - Burgundy:
    - Brittany, Occitania (in PDM - is Burgundy as well?):
    - England #2:
    -... okay, there's a lot.

    Changes:
    - Denmark -> Denmark-Norway?
    - The United Kingdom -> The United Kingdom (of England and France*)
    - The Netherlands -> ???
    - Morocco -> ???
    - Russian Empire -> possibly another name (Grand Duchy of Russia?)???
    - Would Tibet or Burma need renames?
    -...
    Epirus would simply be the Greece tag with its localization changed, seeing as it occupies the same area as Greece. There's already a Bulgaria tag ingame, while we can use the Ottoman tag for the Constantinople Turks and we can hijack the Crete tag for the Knights Hospitaller. I'd personally get rid of the Cyprus tag and use it for the Konya Turks; the Cypriots are probably well-assimilated into the Knight's culture by this point. We can use the Georgia tag for Georgo-Armenia, and keep the Armenia and Azerbaijan tags for breakaways. We can use the Syria tag for the Caliphate, and keep Egypt as is. Arab nationalism wouldn't have/won't develop IMO, if anything it'd be Islamic nationalism, so we can use any other Arab tags for the Arabian states. We can discuss tags in more detail; there really are a lot, and this'll largely depend on how we handle what happened and what could happen. Although....

    -I'm thinking that we could give Morocco the ability to declare themselves as Al-Andalus if they conquer some more chunks of Iberia, so we can't give them that name straight up IMO. I'm thinking calling them the Marinid or maybe even the Almoravid Sultanate, since we're considering using Manzikert as a POD. I'm also thinking of giving the Muslim states the ability to fight like hounds over the title of Caliph, with an insanely hard decision to accomplish that would allow for the establishment of a united Caliphate. But like I said, would be hard, HARD as hell. We should really establish this in the theoretical TL.

    -Denmark can be called Denmark-Norway, it'd even things up between them and Sweden if Norwegian is an accepted culture.

    -United Kingdom, we could go the PDM route and call it the Dual Monarchy(or not, we have an original bone somewhere in us, right?), we could keep it as the United Kingdom....or maybe just keep it called England? Doubt that'd happen though, on second thought, since France would dominate such a union and I don't think it'd be called England for long.

    -The Netherlands can stay the Netherlands, although maybe we can call it Holland-wank?

    -I think we should just keep Russia as Russia

    -We can call Tibet the Tibetan Empire, and Burma...yes, but I have no idea what to call it.

    For China, how does this setup seem (to flesh it out a bit more, although not that much)? [from Dyranum's last map]

    The Main Independent Kingdoms:
    - Pale Yellow: China. All areas actually considered to be under the de-facto rule of the Chinese Emperor.
    - Light Blue: The Kingdom of Dali. Independent since the fall of the Yuan Dynasty (since I don't think butterflies can get to it fast enough to have it not fall to Kublai Khan as a sidenote to the invasion of China).
    - Light Grey: The Kingdom of Shu(?). Independent since the Manchurian invasions. A border province of the Ming-analogue Dynasty into which loyalist generals fled, eventually to form its own independent state as another dynasty rose to power in China proper (which saw them as being a good buffer against the Mongols and Tibetans, so there wasn't a big push to invade).

    The North (everything above the brown, grey, and yellow countries)
    - Dark Blue, Neon Green, and the inland Green-Brown: Warlords. Powerful border generals have taken over these states. Substates of China, but with decisions allowing them to fairly peacefully (or without a very major threat of retaliation - China can try to stop it, but won't most of the time) break free as totally independent states given foreign influence or some combination of unciv-reforms. Perhaps with an intermediate step of becoming simply a satellite state.
    - Purple: A powerful governor or set of local authorities (maybe a family that has become powerful in government, or even a branch of the ruling dynasty which used its connections to get a power base that is fairly autonomous from the empire as a whole). Substate of China.
    - Teal-ish: Rebels. Although command is nominally in the hands of the local governor, a growing rebel movement uses the territory as their base for the eventual overthrow of China. China and the northern (dark blue) warlord can take decisions to intervene (which will start a war between the dark blue warlord, as China's military force in the region, and the rebels*. It allows the threat to be neutralized, but empowers dark-blue-warlord more than China might want** and has a chance of failing embarrassingly).

    * I'm not sure if it still works in AHD, but in vanilla you can start and end wars just fine between satellites (but it has to be by events and decisions - in this case, it should be fairly simple to make reasonable victory conditions for both sides).
    ** China would be able to intervene directly after taking care of the Purple state, which would require some administrative reform and warfare (because when China declares its centralization of the region, it would resist).

    The South
    - Brown: The people's state, a dysfunctional corrupt democracy (but hey, better than nothing). Completely independent from China.
    - Black: Basically ruled by pirates. Nominal ownership might be to a governor of Guangdong, but the pirates run the show. Enough naval tech to compete with the Maritime focused Chinese Empire. Ally to China, with events and decisions allowing the emperor to try to put an end to the trade disrupting piracy or for European powers to invade (first just to get rid of the troublesome pirates, who are usually on good terms and like to trade with the West but tend to have high fees and tributes for safe passage, but then because it's a nice set of ports to gain).
    - Blue/Purple (next to Black): Again, a state nominally under the control of local governors but really ruled by rebels. Allied with China, but probably with events to set up for a war (making them simply a puppet) when China decides to stamp out the rebels.
    - Pink: Part of the peasant's rebellion that was mainly just bandit warlords kicking out the Imperial authorities. While both the peasant republic and the Chinese Empire claim to have authority over the region, it's a puppet to the Kingdom of Dali.
    - Dark Yellow: A powerful warlord in the peasant republic (presidential dictatorship or even absolute monarchy - substate of the peasant's republic).
    I like it, it sounds detailed and well thought out. But I still don't really know near enough about China to comment constructively

  10. #190
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    The Loyalist Brits should be the UK and the English landlords should be England IMO. Also, the Tunis-coloured state would be the Hafsids. I don't know if they'd be called Hafsids or not though. We need to keep in mind that there are common names used everywhere and all. For example: IOTL, Great Qing is called China and the UK is called England.

    Also, Denmark should stay as just Denmark. Easier that way, and that's pretty much how it was (well, except for the fact that they were two separate Kingdoms and all in a personal union but...yeah.).

    As for the Knights: I say we keep them all as one state (well, excepting the Maya one). Makes it more capable of doing stuff.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
    Creator and GM of: Dark Horizons, Dark Horizons 2.0, Pure Madness, The Countries of an Alternate World, Twenty Thousand Leagues Over the Sea, Pure Madness 2: We couldn't decide on a subtitle
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  11. #191
    Alright, so, in the spirit of creating some background history for this mod, I decided to take the lead with the place I know the most about, the Inca Empire.


    Here goes:


    Andean history up until July 1532 is more or less as history went IOTL up until that point. From there on go the divergences.

    Pre-Islamic History
    -1532: After the Battle of Cajamarca which resulted in the defeat of Huascar, an outbreak of smallpox occurred amongst the Inca army, resulting in Atahualpa contracting the disease. Amazingly, he survived the disease despite severe scarring and would never be afflicted with smallpox for the rest of his life.

    -The ravaging of the Andean population by Old World disease led to an enormous amount of death and severely shook the Inca Empire. However, by the 1540s, the spreading of the disease had died down, although the disease would flare consistently and haunt the Inca up until the spreading of inoculation via contact with the Muslim world, and ultimately, by the invention of the smallpox vaccine. Ironically, the Inca Empire was the first country in the world to wipe out smallpox within its borders through rigorous vaccination campaigns in the XXth century.

    -1530s and 40s: Inca Empire carries on shakily, but solidly.

    -1534: Huscar names his son Awkipuma his successor and has a daughter named Sisa Killasumaq(meaning: flower beautiful like the moon)

    -1546: Muslim explorers in service of Al-Andalus return from what is IOTL Colombia in the 1540s with news of a great pagan empire on the mountains to the governor of the Andalusian colony of XXXX.

    -1547: Expedition is sent out to convert the Inca to Islam. The expedition was headed by Malik al-Harari, the young grandson of a Jewish refugee from France who converted to Islam. The expedition contained 75 soldiers, all armed with guns and on mount. al-Harari spoke Andalusian Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin fluently.

    -1548: The mission arrives in Quito in peace, and Atahualpa arrives with 5,000 men(the amount of men he can draft for his armies has been severely reduced) within two weeks to meet with the Muslim emissaries. By the time of arrival, the mission had acquired several dozen converts out of a city of 50,000.

    The expedition was friendly and open at first, with the Sapa Inca offering a gift of Incan textiles and food, that the Muslims took as a tribute. However, when the Sapa Inca scoffed at the idea of converting to what he understood to be a religion that worshiped a rock, the atmosphere quickly turned furious. The missionaries left, while the Sapa Inca remained indignant, but al-Harari vowed to return and to convert these people to Islam.

    -1550: A second expedition once again headed by al-Harari arrived to Quito. By the time of return, there were several hundred converts in what we now know as Ecuador, and was beginning to spread southwards towards the former lands of the Chimu.

    This expedition was aided this time by a few converted Quechuas that would serve as translators between the two groups. Negotiations and explanations proceeded apace rapidly. The Inca agreed to convert to Islam, but refused to bow towards Mecca, angering the Muslims and earning their mistrust. At the same time, miscommunication between Cuzco and Quito resulted in a rise of anger and suspicion towards the Sapa Inca in his court for converting. How dare he abandon the very functional apparatus of the state! This can be explained by historical accounts stating the Atahualpa believed that he would be the equal of Muhammad, which is why he agreed to convert. Regardless, this quickly culminated in a rebellion in Cuzco within a month of his conversion lead by his own heir, Awkipuma, against the already aging Sapa Inca who was located in Quito finishing negotiations.

    Seeing an opportunity to gain the Sapa Inca's good will, al-Harari offered to aid the Sapa Inca in putting down the rebellion. Quickly agreeing, the Inca's 5000 men and 125 Muslim warriors on horseback quickly traveled south, where they confronted the rebellious nobles and the heir apparent. No attempts at negotiation were made, and the battle commenced immediately, fifty-five miles from Cuzco at Ollantaytambo. The Battle of Ollantaytambo would be the most decisive event in Incan history due to its outcome.

    Facing the army of 5,100 men was an army nearly triple its size and composed of all of the rebellious nobles who decried Atahualpa's conversion. The battle took place in a valley and would ultimately result in a routing and complete elimination of the army down to a man. The battle commenced with the charging of the rebel army's levy of men head on towards the Muslim position at the mouth of the valley with elevated hills all around them. The charge was quickly destroyed when a loud bang noise was heard, and the first men running fell to the ground, dead. A larger explosion was head immediately afterwards, and large explosions occurred in the middle of the rebel army's main body.

    Never having seen firearms before, the rebels acted predictably and fell into chaos and even infighting. Al-Harari's battle plan had succeeded; the Inca had more or less won. The Sapa Inca's army advanced and systematically cut a swath through the disintegrating army to Awkipuma's camp, where he was captured and shipped back towards the Inca's camp. Atahualpa took pity on his son and allowed him to be led with his dignity intact. This would be the most fatal mistake Atahualpa would ever make and be the beginning of the end of purely Quechuan rule. Upon turning his back, Awkipuma lunged with an obsidian knife. Before anyone could react, it was too late, and Atahualpa was bleeding out.

    According to historical accounts, Atahualpa reached out to al-Harari before falling, dead to the world. What happens next is unclear, but what is known as fact is that al-Harari took charge and finished off the remnants of the rebel army and took Awkipuma's head with him. Cuzco, defenseless after having its garrison force used as the backbone of the rebel army, laid the gates before al-Harari and his victorious army. What occurred next again continues to remain unclear, but what is fact is that by the end of the day, Al-Harari had installed himself as Sapa Inca of Tawantinsuya, that he had taken Sisa Killasumaq, Atahualpa's 16 year old daughter as his first wife, and that any son of the Inca that still remained alive and in opposition to his rule was dead, and that the construction of Cuzco's first, biggest, and grandest mosque was already underway.

    From 1550 onwards, Tawantinsuya would go in a new direction more radically different than the past, in a scale even incomparable to Pachacuti's conquests or the Incan Civil War.

    TO BE CONTINUED.
    I can't do it all in one sitting, now can I? Any commentary is appreciated though; I'll probably break it down into pre-Islam, the remained of the 16th century, the 17th century, and the 18th century. After I cover the rest of the 16th century, expect the amount of detail to decrease a lot.

  12. #192
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Maybe write it in a more consistent manner? You seem to jump from in-universe to outside the universe. It is quite jarring.

    Also, the current American situation is kinda placeholder...We really should revise it. Sure, Inca, Guarrani tribes, Templar colony and Brittany colony are all set in stone, but what about Moorish Mexico and Burgundian East Coast for example? Or Moorish South America? We really should attempt to add more indepedent American states I think, though obviously not really that similar to vanilla so there could probably be a lot of colonies anyways. Actually, we could keep the situation as is if we somehow managed to mae colonial rebels more powerful.
    Last edited by Dyranum; 10-02-2012 at 23:33.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    The Loyalist Brits should be the UK and the English landlords should be England IMO. Also, the Tunis-coloured state would be the Hafsids. I don't know if they'd be called Hafsids or not though. We need to keep in mind that there are common names used everywhere and all. For example: IOTL, Great Qing is called China and the UK is called England.
    Makes sense. Maybe Britain, though - the landlords definitely claim at least the British Isles as true English territory (simply wanting a constitutional monarchy as opposed to the absolutist dynasty at the moment [by the way, are they Plantagenets who still kept their line alive, or some other branch by now?] - and of course this constitution might be a bit biased toward England, English, noble rights, etc.).

    Also, Denmark should stay as just Denmark. Easier that way, and that's pretty much how it was (well, except for the fact that they were two separate Kingdoms and all in a personal union but...yeah.).
    True, and it will fit better if Norway is freed for some reason. Denmark-Norway simply sounds so cool, though. (splitting them into two, with Norway as a puppet, would be the most accurate, perhaps, but I think it would mess up gameplay).

    As for the Knights: I say we keep them all as one state (well, excepting the Maya one). Makes it more capable of doing stuff.
    How would the Knights Hospitaller hold all those lands, though? It's a bunch of really scattered territories too, so I'm not sure how much more help they'd be to each other as one political entity (they should have some good tech and alliances with the Pope and the local lords of Christendom, such that they aren't total pushovers militarily - which would probably help them more than holding a bunch of disconnected realms).

    America:
    Perhaps fill some of the bigger colonial areas with different nationalist rebels, or make some of them fairly independent dominions (especially the Anglo-French ones - with all the trouble at home, the colonial governments have taken a big role that will later inspire revolutions if they are suppressed). Later events would allow the mother countries to try to reabsorb them (with good relations and the like, perhaps) or have them break away.

    I think a big problem is colonization. We'd want some pretty stable great or secondary powers in America (unless we let everyone colonize - or all civilized nations colonize) to counter any of the big powers in the continent. The easiest way is to leave it to the European powers only, but then we miss out on a lot of cool North American states.

    Maybe we should just stick with all civilized nations being able to colonize (maybe with a requirement to enact a decision to get a tech or something, requiring them to border uncolonized land, be American, or have a certain naval power). Then all we need is to make sure the colonization stays fairly balanced between the smaller American states and the various old world states which are still colonizing (no Monroe Doctrine taken to an extreme).
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  14. #194
    I'm not sure there would be that many independent states, my logic being; when the French where on the American boarder, they gave Britain their whole-hearted support. Now, not only are they foreign and speak a funny language, chances are that they also are of a different religion than you as well. The driving force behind independence movements(self-determination) is being dampened by the boogeyman that are would-be threats. Considering land is a lot more divided, I imagine the need to have a patron in a European power is much stronger. Of course, all European colonies will have a releasable colonial state for a chunk of land, but I can't see why there would be more independent states. Especially since we haven't established a backstory to Europe; without the French Revolution, it's unlikely the Spanish colonies would have ever revolted, and even puts into question if the American Revolution would happen at all as we know it.

    But I would say that Moorish South America is more or less a given going by probability. Portugal discovered Brazil due to their explorations in along the West African coast going array, which resulted in them landing in Porto Seguro, where Breton South America is. The Moors have less reason to head eastwards towards the Far East, as they can trade for goods from the Silk Road without paying the prices the Europeans would. That's why I left that area up for grabs for European powers; a European power that ends up sailing in the wrong direction en route to India is who is most likely to claim Southern Brazil. Here's the map showing Portugal's first (official) step in Brazil while en route to India.



    Meanwhile, the Moors own the Canaries and are in a position to head westwards like Spain did, owning Andalucia and all. As to why they would head westwards; the discovery of the Americas from even the 1300s onwards was more or less inevitable. Even if they had access to Silk Road goods, profits would have driven the Andalusians to explore eventually, or even explore for the sake of exploring. Going off the maps from Colombus's voyages, it's really likely that they'd land either in Northern South America or the Caribbean. Now, for us to have an Islamic Inca Empire, we'd need for the Moors to own Colombia, and to own Colombia, they'd have to own Venezuela. Then going off of the fact that they own the Algarves, they'd be in a prime position to own the Guyanas. I imagine that if they didn't land in the Caribbean, the first place they would have landed would have been the Guyanas. Finally, in search of wealth, I imagine that they'd have stumbled on the Amazon river, which would more or less make the Amazon basin theirs as well de facto, especially with no one other than the United Kingdom in a position to contest their position. But to have the Moors survive so long on Iberia, they'd have had to be strong or risk complete expulsion from Iberia, so the chances of the region being contested would decrease even more, IMO. It just seems logical to give the Moors Southern North America.

    Here are Colombus's voyages for reference.


    As to the history thing, yeah, I do need to be more consistent. It's just that some things need a bit of detail while others are a lot more general, so I'm not sure how to go about it.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    How would the Knights Hospitaller hold all those lands, though? It's a bunch of really scattered territories too, so I'm not sure how much more help they'd be to each other as one political entity (they should have some good tech and alliances with the Pope and the local lords of Christendom, such that they aren't total pushovers militarily - which would probably help them more than holding a bunch of disconnected realms).
    The Knights are half joke state and half a really lucky series of events. I'm still in favor of getting rid of the Knight's South American territory, as it just seems to scattered away from where their main focus is. The idea behind them was that the Christian states wouldn't be sitting on their hands while Al-Andalus continued to make havoc in Sardinia and Sicily, so the Kings of the United Kingdom, Uber Poland, Austria, and Sicily bankrolled the Knights and that they surprisingly succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams. Although we did try to be reasonable; the Maya state is actually an Order that's semi-independent of the Knights to combat Islam in Mesoamerica. We could give the Mayan Crusaders/Knights of New Jerusalem Hispaniola though; if the Knights are assigning territory off to a crusader state in the New World, I imagine that they'd have transferred all New World possessions. As to why we've given the Knights an outpost in India, I can't imagine that if they were successful, alive, and heavily overfunded, that they wouldn't try some crazy shit, and the best part is, have it succeed. The idea of them holding on to a small island or African outpost isn't too hard to have it happen, IMO. The Netherlands was rather small, but very rich, and look what they held on to. Granted, the Knights are definitely smaller than the Netherlands though.

  16. #196
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    I say we keep the Caribbean owned by non-maya templar though, as it is an excellent outpost to raid Moorish colonies, though that does admittedly make it make quite som sense to give it to the Maya order too. South America was kinda random, yeah, but I tnk the Knights should still have the Falklands. However, who would own that colony in South America?

    Also, as for the European colonies: Uh, all of the British North American colonies have seceded (forming three states), along with one of Burgundy's two North American colonies.

    Also, Muslim-Christian coexistence in Iberia isn't implausible. The Reconquista took some 700 years, and then there is the last phase with Granada which lasted for 200 years. Just puting that out there.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    I say we keep the Caribbean owned by non-maya templar though, as it is an excellent outpost to raid Moorish colonies, though that does admittedly make it make quite som sense to give it to the Maya order too. South America was kinda random, yeah, but I tnk the Knights should still have the Falklands. However, who would own that colony in South America?

    Also, as for the European colonies: Uh, all of the British North American colonies have seceded (forming three states), along with one of Burgundy's two North American colonies.

    Also, Muslim-Christian coexistence in Iberia isn't implausible. The Reconquista took some 700 years, and then there is the last phase with Granada which lasted for 200 years. Just puting that out there.
    I know it's not impossible. Relatively, al-Andalus was heaven compared to what would happen in the reverse scenario. But the thing is, the idea of kicking the Muslims out of Europe has been INGRAINED into the Iberian conscience, which is why I can't see the Christian Iberian states tolerating Muslims within what they perceive as their land. No one has to necessarily own that land tbh, but if we're giving it to somebody, it would be the Inca IMO. Or atleast give them Buenos Aires anyway, as that province is too strategic for anyone trying to control the Rio de La Plata.

    Why would the Knights own the Falklands necessarily btw? IMO, we'd be better off leaving it uncolonized and with a life rating similar to the South Georgia islands. It goes with the idea of it being too out of the way for the Knights to really bother with, but I can also see that as the exact reason as to why they're there. In search of people to bring to Christ. On second thought, let's them keep the Falklands. We can cast the Inca as Argentina!

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by EMT0 View Post
    I know it's not impossible. Relatively, al-Andalus was heaven compared to what would happen in the reverse scenario. But the thing is, the idea of kicking the Muslims out of Europe has been INGRAINED into the Iberian conscience, which is why I can't see the Christian Iberian states tolerating Muslims within what they perceive as their land. No one has to necessarily own that land tbh, but if we're giving it to somebody, it would be the Inca IMO. Or atleast give them Buenos Aires anyway, as that province is too strategic for anyone trying to control the Rio de La Plata.

    Why would the Knights own the Falklands necessarily btw? IMO, we'd be better off leaving it uncolonized and with a life rating similar to the South Georgia islands. It goes with the idea of it being too out of the way for the Knights to really bother with, but I can also see that as the exact reason as to why they're there. In search of people to bring to Christ. On second thought, let's them keep the Falklands. We can cast the Inca as Argentina!
    I think the idea is that the various knightly orders (I think there should be one for India, one for the Americas, and the Knights Hospitaller for the Med. Sea - but all strongly aligned [high relations, alliances, military access, SoI perhaps] with powerful Catholic nations so they aren't pushovers) are set up in strategic positions to counter the dominance of the Muslim nations and allow for Western trade to travel through safely. Whichever nation originally settled and fortified the Falklands had to abandon their fortresses there because it's not practical and they had other concerns at the moment (as happened so many times OTL with those islands) - instead of just leaving them vacant as in OTL, though, they gave them over to a Christian Knightly Order to gain prestige and keep the islands from being taken over by the Moors. The Orders give Europe a way to collectively fund (indirectly) safe harbors and fortresses against piracy and other problems in faraway lands, while collectively benefiting as well.

    The Knights Hospitaller in the Med. Sea keep the trade routes safe and help hold against a Muslim invasion of the underbelly of Europe.
    The Knights of New Jerusalem in the Falklands and maybe some Caribbean islands keep the Muslim dominance of South America from endangering the European colonial presence.
    The Knights Templar in Yucatan were originally there for basically the same reason, but the order split with different strategies for stopping the Muslim advance?
    The Knights ?? in India protect European trade and colonies in the Orient and check the advance of Muslim nations from the Persian gulf and India.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    I think the idea is that the various knightly orders (I think there should be one for India, one for the Americas, and the Knights Hospitaller for the Med. Sea - but all strongly aligned [high relations, alliances, military access, SoI perhaps] with powerful Catholic nations so they aren't pushovers) are set up in strategic positions to counter the dominance of the Muslim nations and allow for Western trade to travel through safely. Whichever nation originally settled and fortified the Falklands had to abandon their fortresses there because it's not practical and they had other concerns at the moment (as happened so many times OTL with those islands) - instead of just leaving them vacant as in OTL, though, they gave them over to a Christian Knightly Order to gain prestige and keep the islands from being taken over by the Moors. The Orders give Europe a way to collectively fund (indirectly) safe harbors and fortresses against piracy and other problems in faraway lands, while collectively benefiting as well.

    The Knights Hospitaller in the Med. Sea keep the trade routes safe and help hold against a Muslim invasion of the underbelly of Europe.
    The Knights of New Jerusalem in the Falklands and maybe some Caribbean islands keep the Muslim dominance of South America from endangering the European colonial presence.
    The Knights Templar in Yucatan were originally there for basically the same reason, but the order split with different strategies for stopping the Muslim advance?
    The Knights ?? in India protect European trade and colonies in the Orient and check the advance of Muslim nations from the Persian gulf and India.
    ....That idea actually works out very well. Maybe with a decision that allows either a GP Papacy or Great Power Order to unite all of the Orders? We could have the Knights Hospitaller in the Sicilian or Uber Polish sphere, the Knights of New Jerusalem in the Scandinavian/Austrian sphere, the Knights Templar in the English sphere, and the Knights of Saint Xavier(?) in the Burgundian sphere?

    I'm just rolling with it, but part of me just wants to annex Hispaniola to the Mayan Order and hand the Falklands off to anybody, or just leave it as unclaimed land(I like this one better).

  20. #200
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    I disagree, the Falkand islands is a strategically important location. It makes sense to give it to the knights. Also, why are we splitting up the Knights? Think of it from a gameplay perspective: If split up, they will be weak dudes who won't be able to do anything (Except for the Mayan Order).

    EDIT: Here's a new map.
    Gave Templar SA to Tuscanny. Maybe that state in Uruguay is a former Tuscan colony?

    Also changed the borders of the former British colonies. Part of me really wants to give the mississippi state to Asturian Texas.
    Gave Vilnius to Lithuania too to provide them with a capital and shorten the Swedish-Jagiellonian border which works in favour to Sweden.

    Another thing: We really should not use Georgia's tag for Georgia-Armenia. G-A should get an entirely new tag as it is distinct from both Georgia and Armenia.

    Also, don't know what to do with Songhai. Should we keep them at those borders or shrink them? They look real good at these borders though, and it makes them a real challenge to Europeans too.

    EDIT2: Also gave two island-group provinces to the Chinese pirates.
    Last edited by Dyranum; 11-02-2012 at 22:08.
    Shynka: "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling."

    Suive Opiniâtrement les Régles (primary) and Lanterfanter den Tweede Slak (secondary) in Edge of Europe. Formerly Officer Gun Gun (deceased), Deputy Lambin l'Escargot (deceased), Méfiezvous du Calembour (deceased), and Deputy Houdt van Kaas Hakkihäälinen (retired).
    Creator and GM of: Dark Horizons, Dark Horizons 2.0, Pure Madness, The Countries of an Alternate World, Twenty Thousand Leagues Over the Sea, Pure Madness 2: We couldn't decide on a subtitle
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