Let's Create a Community Alternate Scenario

[EMT0]

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Welcome to At The Gates of Barcelona, an Alternate History Scenario, built by the Paradox community for the Paradox community. This project started out as an ideal of mine to have an alternate scenario that would be able to be created without destroying a person. As you may or may not know, many of the alternate scenario mods are work-intensive and require hours of dedication to even get off the ground, nevermind delivering a complete experience. As shown by Divergences, this can turn out great, but there are also other examples of it not turning out so great, due to no fault of the modder, but due to the constraints and difficulties that occur when running a mod as complex as an alternate scenario by yourself. This project was formed so that the community could collectively contribute to an alternate scenario mod, theoretically allowing for a faster release and for more content to be put into the mod that would not challenge the time constraints of a modder.


Feel free to join us and give us your critiques, your ideas, and if you so wish, your contributions to the mod, since you only have to contribute as much as you want to! We want ideas so as to make this scenario as lifelike as we can with the tools Paradox gave us, and we value all input from any member of the Paradox community. We welcome all modders who are currently with a project of their own to contribute what they wish, we invite all Paradoxians with a bit of casual interest in modding to ask questions and try to do what they can.


The latest build of the mod(once we start modding) will be available for download at the bottom of the post, and if you wish to contribute something to the mod, simply upload the modified files in their appropriate folders. For example, if you wish to contribute a decision, upload a .zip file with the decision inside the decisions folder, and within code brackets, the localization for the decision. I will be compiling and verifying that everything that is added to the mod daily is merged into the nightly build, so as to ensure a smooth system of operations.


As to what we have so far; as of 02/09/2012, we have:
-Completed a base scenario for the mod; modifications are still possible however, and Africa needs work.

At the moment, we are currently working on:
-Assigning tags for all of the countries on the map, and also for potential revolter states, and also making some headway with wiping the history files. If you want to see how you can help, follow one of the links below.

The current map as of 02/18/2012 is…Click on the the date for a bigger picture of the map


More will soon join this list, and we hope to have an Alpha version of this mod out soon. The latest topic of discussion/progress can (most likely) be found at the last page, feel free to join in; no one’s opinion, not even my own, holds more weight than anybody else’s.

Links to Guides and Info For the Mod:

Click here for a post with a list of all the tags used by the mod

A download of the history files

Click here for a guide on how to help wipe/modify province history files


Useful terminology to know:
-IOTL: In our TimeLine, refers to history as it happened in real life
example: IOTL, the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople in 1453.
-ITTL: In This TimeLine, refers to the scenario being discussed
example: ITTL, we should have Byzantium win Manzikert so as to have them live longer.
-ASB: Alien-Space Bats, which is Alternate History terminology for impossible or as likely to happen as me winning the lottery back to back 100 times.
example: The Aztecs invading the Old World in the 1100s is ASB! There isn't even an Aztec Triple Alliance IN the 1100s!
-OT: Off-Topic, when something has nothing to do with the point of discussion.
example: Stop being OP, we're talking about army sizes, not My Little Pony here.


I'll add more terminology if it comes to my mind.





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ORIGINAL POST BELOW:

So, hear's my speel:

At the moment, we've seen lots of standalone, one-man projects attempting to create an entire scenario on their own, even I've done a preliminary brainstorm of creating one. The shame of it is, most of these are trudging along very slowly, or have been completely abandoned. Even Divergences has slowed to a standstill due to the restraints of a one-man team. As a result, I've done some thinking(Amazing, I know). The reason people, or at least I, don't volunteer to co-operate on these is partly because of fearing clashing too much with the original creator's ideas, and partly because of the time commitment that would be involved.

I figure that the best way to churn out an alternate scenario both up-to-date(Sorry Divergences, but I swear you're my favorite mod!) and enjoyable would be to create one as a community. My idea for this would have the first step be to nominate hypothetical scenarios, then have the community vote on which to do.


For example, l could nominate a scenario where the Europeans remains traders in India and never actually establish a solid foothold on the subcontinent, while another person may propose a strong Ottoman Empire, while another may propose a scenario where Japan's Emperors die off during the Sengoku, resulting in a permanent division of Japan between the Bakufu. From there, a vote would be taken where one could not vote for their own pick and the winner would be the focus of the hypothetical scenario.

From there, a rough timeline could be created, giving us our scenario to work with as a community. People could contribute as they wish, and at the end of the day, a compilation of the current progress would be updated on the first page. Not only would this allow us to make rapid progress in bringing about a new scenario into Paradox's collection of Victoria 2 mods, but it would also be neigh impossible to kill off the project as long as there remains interest in seeing it's completion.



From my time working in the early days of Empire Mod, I know that the greatest weakness a mod can have is a disconnected project leader. For a time, it looked as though Empire Mod may have been completed before Divergences was playable due to the extent of which people contributed. But at the heart of it was our project leader, who eventually went AWOL for several months, completely shutting down our progress due to the loss of the latest build.

I want to bring back that drive that project had while ensuring that the same thing doesn't happen again. What I'm looking for, rather then a commitment, is to see if people are interested in trying this concept out. I will admit, we could very well lose ourselves once the actual modding begins, but as long as there as an interest, a project like this could get done. Before I commit effort into this idea, I'd like to see a show of (hypothetical) e-hands as to who would like to make an attempt to build an Alternate Scenario as a group.

[flame7926]

I would be interested in helping with something like this.

[Dyranum]

I would be interested. However, I'm more of an idea-guy as I don't really have the spare time to engage in serious modding nowadays (Otherwise, I would have started at least one serious mod by now).
I must say though that just going by your title, I thought this was some attempt at making a User-created nations MOD.

[Lord Dalek]

I'll help. I think maybe a good idea, would be a victory in the War of 1812, thus resulting in control of Canada (who?) by America. Or, instead, go from the Battle of Quebec City, and make that a victory.

[EMT0]

Dyranum: That's perfectly fine, and also one of those points I wanted to emphasize, that even those who give ideas are as constructive to this as those who choose to do some modding. As the guy who'd more or less be heading this idea, it'd probably fall to me to engage in some of the serious modding, but I WAS considering just basing it off PDM once AHD comes out and it's fully updated to run on it, although again, that should also fall to consensus.

Lord Dalek: Thank you. I'm just waiting to see if we can rack up some more support, then we can start officially voicing opinions as to what to work on. I don't want to discourage potentials just yet by voicing my own idea for a scenario just yet.

Now thinking about it, if we can hit a second page on this thread in terms of interest, I think that'd be a sign to go ahead and try this out. Any more interest, even passive, please do voice it.

Another thing worth mentioning here is that now that interest in POP modding tools has appeared, modding V2 as a whole will be that much easier! It'll also give some credence to this idea, making it easier for people to contribute.

[Dyranum]

There are a lot of useful modding tools out there. Some of those are quite old.
There's Kinniken's ProvinceOwnerhsip and POPAdjuster tools
Then there's the Clausewitz Save Game and Scenario Editor/Viewer

There should really be made some attempt to make people more aware of these highly useful tools.

[Naselus]

I suspect the main thing making most mods go so slowly atm is the imminent release of AHD; I know that's why AoC, VRRP and DVG are all on hiatus currently.

And feel free to base off the PDM economy and politics systems, they should be flexible enough to survive big changes to the starting setup. Just make sure you credit it - you can use 'PDM team' as a shorthand to avoid needing to list the 100-odd contributors. Equally, feel free to PM me for help on econ, promotion and political issues you may run into; chances are I've seen them before and know a fix for them.

[EMT0]

Thanks Naselus, much appreciated. PDM is actually my second favorite mod, and I'm not just saying that. It makes a very nice change from vanilla V2's....less than realistic shenanigans. I agree that it's mostly about AHD, but now is also the best time to do some preliminary scheming for completely new mods, or at least for alternate scenarios. As far as I know, provinces aren't changing drastically in this expansion, so plotting out what province goes to who now is possibly the best time to do so. Plan now, mod later, fun even later? Something like that.

I also can't believe I've never seen those tools o.o It's a little rough for POP modding, but it's certainly much better than nothing.

[hoi2geek]

I got some ideas. What about. . .

-Ireland still exists and colonizes the Philippines and North Island, with Scotland colonizing South Island
-The English conquer Argentina and Uruguay which leads to them becoming colonies of England
-Granada, Songhai Empire, and Vinland still exist

[ZomgK3tchup]

Ireland still exists and colonizes the Philippines and North Island, with Scotland colonizing South Island

This is a cool idea except that the Philippines is pretty much guaranteed to be Spanish if Magellan is the first person to circumnavigate the world.

-Granada, Songhai Empire, and Vinland still exist

Play Divergences for this, IMO.

A more balanced game would be fun to play with smaller colonial empires, more distinct European states, etc, with no particular preference for a culture or group.

[Syntax Error]

Maybe a scenario where Napoleon wins the Napoleonic Wars, or at the very least, is able to bargain for an uneasy truce between the First French Empire and the Coalition?

[NovaCoru]

I'd like a Napoleon game as well. as far as an editing perspective, it requires far less work then an earlier change would, as most foreign nations would be untouched.

Maybe the classic "napoleon doesn't invade russia" approach? Or he does and bows out early, losing territory in germany and other places, but still keeping control of france? i dont know.

[Rylock]

I think EMTO is just looking to see who's interested, as opposed to gathering ideas for the scenario just yet.

Personally, my theory behind the rash of "flavor of the week" althistory mods that crop up is that most of the hardcore Vic2 players are history buffs at heart-- and a "what if" scenario is always intriguing. That said, everyone has their own personal flavor that they like and ideas on what is "realistic" will vary from person to person, not to mention what amount of realism is even necessary. So getting multiple people to commit to a single idea long enough that it'll take shape and strongly enough that they'll do the work required is a difficult proposition. That latter, especially-- it's one thing to sit on a forum and theorize, you'll have no shortage of forum-goers willing to do that, but quite another thing to actually implement. And nobody who's doing all the work will be very eager to implement someone else's ideas.

Though I don't mean to be pessimistic, either. If you're going to do it, you need to be pretty clear on the bar that any new content needs to pass under in order to be considered-- and I think part of that has to be "I'm willing to do the work to implement it". Either that or there's somebody who expresses that willingness to do it. The other part, of course, has to be a clear goal and theme for the scenario.

Who's going to establish all that, though? If you don't have project leadership, then what you risk is everyone championing their pet idea and everyone ending up frustrated in the end. Nothing's worse than that point in a project when it could be anything, because at that point everyone believes it can be everything-- and as soon as any idea is shot down people feel as if what's left is somehow less, even though their idea never had real existence yet. It's tough, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to committees.

[rednax7]

I really like the potential of this idea. I agree with Rylock that there are definite pitfalls that could befall this mod, but I still think it should be pursued. I personally would love to help with possible ideas for this alternate history. While I will not claim to be any experienced veteran of modding, I do know the basics and would be more than willing to help.

Perhaps what really must done to possibly avoid the doom of so many other potentially interesting mods is to call for several volunteers to act as reserve leaders, should the current fall into oblivion for whatever reason. Just a thought.

Overall I agree with EMT0's sentiments that if we have a dedicated community to this mod, one we all might enjoy, I could actually survive to fruition.

[LordInsanity]

Then there's the Clausewitz Save Game and Scenario Editor/Viewer

There should really be made some attempt to make people more aware of these highly useful tools.

True. I can't believe that I didn't know about the scenario editor/viewer - it's made changing province ownership a breeze, whereas before it was just rifling through hundreds of files, a task even worse in China and India.

[Naselus]

Judging by the history of V2 modding, it'll play out as follows:

Someone suggests the idea.
7-8 people volunteer to help.
There's a month or two of intense activity. The mod takes shape. This is when the majority of the work happens, but is also sadly the planning stage.
6 people vanish forever.
The one guy left working on the mod takes a few months to produce a new version, since he's now doing 6 times as much work. This is the point where most mods die.
If the remaining modder manages to produce another version, he'll be bombarded with ideas from players who don't know how to mod or what is possible, but are always present to make suggestions.
He takes a couple more months to produce another version. There's a good chance the mod will die here, too.
If he's VERY lucky, someone might actually volunteer to help him. If he gets just one additional person to help him out, the the mod will become a 'living' mod, settling into a working development cycle.


Basically, even a community mod requires 2 members of full-time staff if it wants to survive. One should be the editor - the guy who has final refusal on what goes into the mod. He should be capable of modding everything to some degree. The other should be a deputy - someone who can take over indefinitely when the editor isn't available. He doesn't need to be able to do everything, so it's better if he specialises in one area - like Rylock does with event/decisions on PDM, for example.

The 2 staff need to be vetted properly - a lot of people will claim to be willing to put time into it, but will get bored and wander off after a couple of weeks. There needs to be a clear chain of command, going editor -> deputy -> everyone else. The editor must have a clear vision of what he's setting out to achieve, the deputy must have absolute faith in that vision. Suggestions from everyone else must be taken as suggestions only, and refusal is likely in 75% of cases.

All the major V2 mods have had their best points when two or more people are working on them full time. AoC has Van D and Rizz; PDM has myself and Rylock; DVG was strongest when both Ath and Kinn were working on it; and VRRP's most successful periods were when Phi and Kon were active on it. So if you want to set up a new altervicky mod, then get the two full-timers at the very start.

The two staffers both need to be willing to mod for at least 8 hours a week, for at least the next 6 months. Anyone who cannot commit to that shouldn't apply, and shouldn't be considered. Students or unemployed people should be favoured, as they have very little else to do most of the time. Modding experience is not really required, since you can always ask on this forum and myself, Zarine, Rylock or Kale will reply fairly quickly, plus you can learn most stuff in about three weeks (after that, it's just a matter of learning to spot your own dumb parsing mistakes).


This is the kind of thing that you should be discussing atm, rather than which country to put where, when the timelines diverge, or even which tools to use

[EMT0]

Very well said and thought out. I suppose by default, I'll be the editor of the project unless someone shows even more dedication to its completion than me, then I'll happily step down. Deputy choices can wait for now, as for now we still need more expressed interest. As you said, a chain of command is very important, and in terms of this project, it could be a flexible, yet established chain. I'll post more on this later, currently in school atm.

[Baconheimer]

I'll come up with ideas and flag concepts, but i cant program it.

[Rylock]

Very well said and thought out. I suppose by default, I'll be the editor of the project unless someone shows even more dedication to its completion than me, then I'll happily step down. Deputy choices can wait for now, as for now we still need more expressed interest. As you said, a chain of command is very important, and in terms of this project, it could be a flexible, yet established chain. I'll post more on this later, currently in school atm.

Yeah, Naselus has the right of it. An editor can certainly establish set guidelines for accepting suggestions and even allow users to vote on content, but a committee would have difficulty staying motivated. What presumably hurt Empire was having a sole modder in charge without a set deputy or succession plan.

As Naselus mentioned, there are people here who can help out those who wish to learn how to mod. The issue that many new modders run into, from my observation, is that they try to do everything at once. They take on the enormous task of an entire mod rather than starting with a smaller, more achievable objective. When I began, I just wanted to do something to help out PDM-- so I set out a goal to create a system whereby vassals could break free if they're sphered by someone other than their master. That was frustrating, but small enough to be achievable... after which I moved onto bigger things. At that point it's just a matter of tenacity. If I had started off trying to mod some impossibly huge task I would probably have quit before I ever got going.

I enjoy being a deputy, though. I'd rather help out someone else's vision than spend all my time debating with people over my own. God forbid, after all, that a core be in the wrong place or German/Austrian unification not work to some warmongerer's satisfaction-- at that point you'll never get anyone to provide feedback on anything else. So, yeah, some frustrations just aren't for me... and I'm probably not alone. Get a deputy or two who knows what they're doing, and a clear delineation of responsibility, and things will probably be fine.

[Baconheimer]

How about the scenario is Britain is like Germany, disunified and many tiny states, and Germany is the Opposite, but is more slavic. And thre are Rabbinical and Immamical States.