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    People's Commisar of POTATO LYNCHY's Avatar
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    Papal States

    Can you be the Papal States in crusader kings 2 and if you can is there any special mechanics for them seeing as the Pope is their leader

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    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYNCHY View Post
    Can you be the Papal States in crusader kings 2 and if you can is there any special mechanics for them seeing as the Pope is their leader
    No, you can't play as the Papal States. You also can't play republics, (arch)bishoprics and any non-christians.

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    People's Commisar of POTATO LYNCHY's Avatar
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    thanks, i do think that republics would also be an intresting option for dlc though

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    Quote Originally Posted by LYNCHY View Post
    thanks, i do think that republics would also be an intresting option for dlc though
    Well, CKII is a game centered around dynasties. Republics don't work well, unless you have a mock republic like De'Medici Florence where your heir inherits power.
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    Colonel Pyriel's Avatar
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    I think it was PdoxLP who's heir was a Doge and when he inherited it turned into an open elective kingdom
    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so what.” - Stephen Fry.

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    Is it possible to be a vassal of a Republic or the Papal States?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyriel View Post
    I think it was PdoxLP who's heir was a Doge and when he inherited it turned into an open elective kingdom
    True, but it was a bug and he had to edit the save game later

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    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    No, you can't play as the Papal States. You also can't play republics, (arch)bishoprics and any non-christians.
    Though it should be repeated again that you can play non-Christians if your domain is inherited by a heathen of your dynasty, since the game remembers who you're playing and doesn't lock you out. There'll be more stuff to do in the original release as a Christian dynasty however, even if Muslim/Pagan focused DLC is probably very likely at some point since it's such an obvious addition.

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    General nyah's Avatar
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    The interesting thing about the medieval pope was that he had very little power and influence in Rome itself, much less than in the rest of the world. I imagine this might be represented by the pope having very low crown authority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyah View Post
    The interesting thing about the medieval pope was that he had very little power and influence in Rome itself, much less than in the rest of the world. I imagine this might be represented by the pope having very low crown authority?
    Doesn't this change quite significantly with the first crusade tho? I thought I read something about that, I mean popes at this time were politicians more than they were acual priests/cardinals
    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so what.” - Stephen Fry.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyriel View Post
    I mean popes at this time were politicians more than they were acual priests/cardinals
    Nonsense, the actual power of the popes was VERY limited, and more often than not he was he puppet in the hands of Roman aristocratic families. His strongest weapon was excommunication, which was not always effective, since there were times the greatest part of Europe's kings were excommunicated. As an example of papal power some give Hendrick IV's Walk to Canossa, however Gregory VII died in exile with Hendrick's antipope sitting on the Chair of St. Peter, so papal power was not as big as some want you to believe.
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    @Skullheadhq

    Look up Pope Innocent IV and Emperor Frederick II. No worldly accomplishments/interests there ?
    Powerplays, politics. So i wouldnt say "Nonsense".

    Back to topic:
    Constant revolts or upheaval should somehow be represented.

    On another note, can the pope or bishops inherit ?
    In CK1 they quite often inherited lands far away as scandinavia or eastern russia.
    This seems silly and kinda unrealistic as well, but i dont know here about the laws and regulations in this time period.
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    General nyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyriel View Post
    Doesn't this change quite significantly with the first crusade tho? I thought I read something about that, I mean popes at this time were politicians more than they were acual priests/cardinals
    No, the popes were weak in Italy throughout the medieval period. So weak at one point they retreated from Rome altogether. If anything Rome should be represented as being ruled by an independent mayor (or Senator) rather than being controlled by the pope. Popes were regularly driven from the city, assaulted by mobs at the altar, and on occasions murdered by Roman hands.

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    General nyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aardvark Bellay View Post
    @Skullheadhq

    Look up Pope Innocent IV and Emperor Frederick II. No worldly accomplishments/interests there ?
    Which is my point... the popes had power throughout Europe, but not in Rome itself. There were some exceptions, and I could go and remind myself of Innocent IV's reign, but I have a baby on my shoulder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyah View Post
    No, the popes were weak in Italy throughout the medieval period. So weak at one point they retreated from Rome altogether. If anything Rome should be represented as being ruled by an independent mayor (or Senator) rather than being controlled by the pope. Popes were regularly driven from the city, assaulted by mobs at the altar, and on occasions murdered by Roman hands.
    Granted, Dark ages and early medieval history are kinda my weak points. Honestly I've always been more interested in the political side of things
    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so what.” - Stephen Fry.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Aardvark Bellay View Post
    @Skullheadhq

    Look up Pope Innocent IV and Emperor Frederick II. No worldly accomplishments/interests there ?
    Powerplays, politics. So i wouldnt say "Nonsense".
    Ha! Frederick II didn't care about his excommunication and only went on crusade because his honor forced him (as a youth he swore an oath). And even during the Crusade he didn't play by the Pope's rule, he even made agreements with the infidel! This outraged the pope but yet again Frederick didn't care at all.

    And Innocent IV was much talk. At one point he thought he could force the Mongol Empire to do what he wants, nuff said. However, he was an excellent plotter, and could manipulate things around Europe, which was his strenght.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyah View Post
    No, the popes were weak in Italy throughout the medieval period. So weak at one point they retreated from Rome altogether. If anything Rome should be represented as being ruled by an independent mayor (or Senator) rather than being controlled by the pope. Popes were regularly driven from the city, assaulted by mobs at the altar, and on occasions murdered by Roman hands.
    This! Good idea!
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 15-01-2012 at 19:02.
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    General Grumpalodian Aardvark Bellay's Avatar
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    Maybe higher revolt risks for the papacy and following, settling somewhere in France or the HRE and then asking by event the Kingdom where he lives to crack down on the revolt. Adding the chance to reverse excommunication or/and earn lots of piety, though not as much as reconquering Rome from heathens.

    @ I wont go on discussing the Offtopic part, as it is indeed OT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullheadhq View Post
    Nonsense, the actual power of the popes was VERY limited, and more often than not he was he puppet in the hands of Roman aristocratic families.
    Not to mention the various popes driven out of town by the Romans themselves.

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    It's important to remember that the Pope initially retreated to Avignon to escape the Roman Nobles domination of the church. Not to mention that in the 12th century Revolutionaries established a republic in Rome, and it lasted fifty years before they annoyed the Emperor enough to suppress them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arceebee View Post
    Is it possible to be a vassal of a Republic or the Papal States?
    Yep. They can have feudal vassals.

    True Story: In one game, Toscanna broke from the HRE and then swore fealty to the Papal States. Suddenly, the Papacy was the biggest power in Italy.

    As for the power of the Papal States in the game:

    The Pope's power varies. Generally, any secular ruler than can withstand the effects of excommunication can just ignore the Pope. But not everyone can pull that off. The fastest way to crash and burn your dynasty is to have a new ruler who gets excommunicated on day 2 of their reign.

    The Papacy is also very rich. This makes direct attacks on the Papacy difficult, as he will hire every mercenary he can afford to crush you.

    Another minor problem: While the Pope can excommunicate people and make it possible to invade them, free investiture partially immunizes you because you can appoint an anti-Pope for 500 prestige. So, the Papacy and the Papal States cam wax and wane in power just like it did historically.

    In MP, I imagine the first thing any player will do it 500 prestige is create an anti-Pope so the other humans can't abuse the Papacy. This should end well, as Moral Authority declines quickly when you have multiple anti-Popes.
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