Re-trying CK

El Jojo · Jan 9, 2012

With CK2 on the horizon, I thought I would start a new CK-DV game, to see if CK2 is for me. I bought CK1 last year and well, I'm conflicted about the game. I really felt out of control and possibilities.
I know Paradox games are not "easy" games and I should not expect to master one so quickly, but I had never felt so out of touch. I tried a few Apulia games (Thanks to the great teaching AAR on this forum) but I always ended bankrupted because northern italian duchies or kingdom would invade me, I could not take them head on, but if I tried to fight a defensive war I'd go bankrupt. They had more troops and could not get bankrupt which felt unfair since they could keep their army on the field for as long as necessary. I've read a few AARs and some of the wiki, so I did not have a bad reputation, I was slowly conquering Sicily, but nothing "blitzkriegy", small focused campagnes without mobilizing vassals to avoid disloyalty, you know the idea.

So, I'll give it a new chance. What would be your advice to start a new game ? Which county / duchy is nice for a beginner ? If possible one with a few short-term and mid-term goal...

Concerning the bankruptcy, should I focus on keeping a huge stockpile of gold instead of trying to develop my demesne ? What are the economic strategies ?

Kailvin · Jan 9, 2012

develop as much as possible when you can. i have gone into debit in excess of 5k before. its tricky and will SUCK HARD. no quiestions asked. also remember that if any of north italy screws with you if you remain loyal to the HRE then he will back you up. Thats the feudal system. Know he can also raise your troops to go fight. Remember you are protected though. Feel free to blitzkrieg as much of sicily as you can. Although keep in mind your king can make seperate peace and just take the money... (Again. Feudal system...) So its a trade off. do you abandon protection for more freedom? Since your new i say no. Stay under your liege. If something goes horribly wrong (as per normal HRE) pledge to the kingdom of hungary. They are pretty kickass. They will also defend you. Breakfree when you are strong enough to defend yourself.

unmerged(15337) · Jan 9, 2012

If you're fighting defensively -- that is, in your own territory -- you don't have to pay your military and you won't have attrition because your troops are on friendly territory (unless they get caught in a badly overcrowded province). So there's no need to go bankrupt if your goals are simply defensive survival.

Aardvark Bellay · Jan 9, 2012

Ireland - Munster is a good starting point for a beginner. Peaceful and easy to either conquering the rest of Ireland early on as going on a crusade later in northern spain, after the christian lands are gone. I like it a lot and will try that one again. Kinda easy and laid-back.

El Jojo · Jan 10, 2012

jwolf said:
If you're fighting defensively -- that is, in your own territory -- you don't have to pay your military and you won't have attrition because your troops are on friendly territory (unless they get caught in a badly overcrowded province). So there's no need to go bankrupt if your goals are simply defensive survival.

Ok, I did not know that you could lower army maintenance as long as you fight in your lands, but then how do I win the war ? The duchy os Toscany wants Bari and Benevento, for whatever reason since I never married to them.
So they send troops that I repel, they retreat back (they come by land and sea), and they come back a bit after that, the warscore is slightly positive for me, but they don't want peace... So after two years of ping-pong, I wonder how long this will take before they accept, sometimes they take some land, like Palermo... I retake it etc. My troops are smaller but theirs do not seem to shrink as much, or maybe they just have more troops than me and can waste more.
They have more knights than me, should I have done something about that ?

And then, Republic of Genoa jumps on me for Apulia and this starts to look like a disaster! Is this a classic "let's pile on the weak one?" situation (which is fair and logical) or is there something I can do to avoid half of Italy having claims on my land ?

Third the economy is still very precarious, to take Palermo I had to reach -400. Is it better to overwhelm a castle and siege quickly or to send only a minimal siege army and disband all troops (once the enemy army is out) ?

Aardvark Bellay · Jan 10, 2012

Sieging speed is always the key here. Thats why i go for (and many do so as well) sieging tech first. I'd do so.
Another way out is to look out for a liege as somebody above mentioned. Hungary, Croatia, Byzantium (while they maybe preoccupied with the Seljuks).
Become a vassal and hope for help.

I played Apulia quite often and never had any serious trouble. Actually once i conquered Tuscany when they declared war on me. As long as you have an unconquered province left while you have all of Tuscanys (the demesne, not the vassals) you can dictate the peace treaty. Avoid direct battles, when your army isnt much bigger and theres no definite need for.

Do you actually know how the peace deals work ?
When you do have claims on your opponent, you can offer to...err..well..give up on them. helps.

El Jojo · Jan 10, 2012

I became a king with the conquest of Sicily so there's no pledging now. So, maybe I went too quick thinking I could handle myself.
Thanks for the siege technology tip, I had not really thought about that.

Well, Tuscany has a claim and more troops so I understand why they attack, so I should consider avoiding them completely, sailing to their domain and hope my sieges will finish first...

I know I can abandon claims in a peace treaty and I would have done but I have no claims on Tuscany...
Sorry to insist on the money question, but since war is so expensive, I'm wondering if I should try to have always at least 500 gold which means something like 2 years of saving. I mean to be able to counter-attack Tuscany I need to pay the troops or they will just melt of attrition ? I'm losing around 130 gold per month when I mobilize, so 3 months should be the average length of a campaign ? Does it get easier to finance your kingdom ?

A crusade has been called on Antioch, do I get specific bonuses if I join ? Or will it be an open invitation for other lords to backstab since my army will away and my treasury depleted ?

unmerged(15337) · Jan 10, 2012

I'm still a relatively new player myself, only having played 4 campaigns. But I'll give you my advice for what it's worth. Others with more experience may give better recommendations.

1. You can't afford a serious offensive war right now, whether against Tuscany or a crusade. Except for a blitz conquest of a Count or Sheik, no successful war will last only 3 months. Figure on a year at least, maybe two.

2. Try to finish sieges as quickly as possible unless you are absolutely confident you have the enemy under control and can afford the extra time and/or money for a slow siege.

3. Don't disband a regiment from a looted province. If you do, when you want to recruit them again the regiment will be very small due to the poor economy of that province at the time. Conversely, when you are on the attack you should loot any captured provinces, with the following cautions: it will cost you piety, for which reason you might not want to loot; and don't loot a province you are certain you will take in the peace treaty.

4. Successful wars agains Muslims will increase your piety a lot (I don't know if this is true for pagans as well). This applies to any Muslim lord, whether he is the official Crusade target or not.

5. If you defend your territory successfully, the enemy lord will offer a reasonable peace deal eventually. But if it looks like you're being overwhelmed, the AI naturally will persist against what it thinks is an easy target (which may or may not actually be the case).

6. Playing as Sicily, you probably need to move troops by sea occasionally. Make sure you're paying maintenance at those times, or else the seaborne troops will suffer serious attrition. What I suggest is that at the beginning of the war you should move troops from Sicily to the mainland or vice-versa as appropriate, then leave them in your lands and fight tenaciously. In my experience it is better to keep your regiments in a small number of big stacks rather than a large number of small units that won't stand up in a serious battle. Once you defeat their main attack army you can keep hitting it and they will take heavy losses due to attrition even if none in the actual combat.

7. Finally, there is a "deux ex machina" event from the Pope that can save your butt if you're really in a jam. Sometimes he will call for the "Peace of God" and command both sides (if Catholic) to stop the war immediately with white peace, or risk excommunication. You have to be lucky to get this -- I don't know the MTTH -- but it was a lifesaver for me in two desperate wars against the King of Germany while playing the Duke of Brandenburg in my first game.

El Jojo · Jan 10, 2012

Thanks for the advice, I'm just trying to enjoy the game and not win a championship, 4 campaigns is much more experience than I have...

So I can't afford a war right now, a real one, ok I can live with that, so I should mostly try to develop my demesne and negociate with other lords.
Quick stupid question, how do I arrange marriage of people of my own court ? I've been marrying people to other courts but even if it said that marriages in my own court are always successful, I can't find which button to click to make that happen. Is it on the courtier character's page ?

Can I attract specific people to my court or are they coming randomly and I have to make-do with who's there ?

Should I try to keep land in the family ? Until now I've tried to control it, but with the succession of Robert I may have to give land to outsiders.

This time is better than the last time I tried but I still feel that most of my choices are done without really knowing the consequences, so when there's a success it's more luck than skill...

Arko · Jan 10, 2012

Aardvark Bellay said:
Ireland - Munster is a good starting point for a beginner. Peaceful and easy to either conquering the rest of Ireland early on as going on a crusade later in northern spain, after the christian lands are gone. I like it a lot and will try that one again. Kinda easy and laid-back.

some times I got a really invasive England.... really fast game over !

Yakman · Jan 10, 2012

jwolf said:
I'm still a relatively new player myself, only having played 4 campaigns. But I'll give you my advice for what it's worth. Others with more experience may give better recommendations.

1. You can't afford a serious offensive war right now, whether against Tuscany or a crusade. Except for a blitz conquest of a Count or Sheik, no successful war will last only 3 months. Figure on a year at least, maybe two.

but as the duke of apulia, there's nice stuff in sicily. so what if you go into debt? pay it off with some usury events.

2. Try to finish sieges as quickly as possible unless you are absolutely confident you have the enemy under control and can afford the extra time and/or money for a slow siege.

the strategic situation is what's important here. do you have more pressing things to worry about than the siege - like the enemy combining his two main armies? if so, leave a detachment handling the siege, and then go and fight both armies separately with your main force. the siege will handle itself later.

3. Don't disband a regiment from a looted province. If you do, when you want to recruit them again the regiment will be very small due to the poor economy of that province at the time. Conversely, when you are on the attack you should loot any captured provinces, with the following cautions: it will cost you piety, for which reason you might not want to loot; and don't loot a province you are certain you will take in the peace treaty.

do NOT loot any and all enemy provinces. this KILLS their support levels. if you are going to be campaigning in enemy territory, you need to be able to not have all your guys die from attrition while in the enemy's territory. sure, loot if you are just passing through with your armies, but don't do it if you are going to have to fall back onto that territory.

6. Playing as Sicily, you probably need to move troops by sea occasionally. Make sure you're paying maintenance at those times, or else the seaborne troops will suffer serious attrition.

the larger point is to never lower troop maintenance. ever. additionally, seaborne units at full maintenance will suffer very low attrition compared to soldiers moving through poor provinces. going by sea might be expensive, but it can save your men for the fight.

7. Finally, there is a "deux ex machina" event from the Pope that can save your butt if you're really in a jam. Sometimes he will call for the "Peace of God" and command both sides (if Catholic) to stop the war immediately with white peace, or risk excommunication. You have to be lucky to get this -- I don't know the MTTH -- but it was a lifesaver for me in two desperate wars against the King of Germany while playing the Duke of Brandenburg in my first game.

do not count on the Pope to be anything other than a pain in the butt.

Aardvark Bellay · Jan 10, 2012

El Jojo said:
So I can't afford a war right now, a real one,

So your war with tuscany is over ?

Quick stupid question, how do I arrange marriage of people of my own court ?

You click your shield/hometown and when your face is shown in the option window, you click arrange marriage, that way you arrange marriage in your own court. Though without the mod/patch you can only marry away your family.

Can I attract specific people to my court or are they coming randomly and I have to make-do with who's there ?

There are several events that fill your court up to a certain number, family members of your princesses might spam your court, spanish courts are good to marry to, as when crushed by muslims, they spread all over europe.

Should I try to keep land in the family ? Until now I've tried to control it, but with the succession of Robert I may have to give land to outsiders.

Its good for your dynasty to spread and as long as the new vassals will be relatives in the first-line of succession you get a friendly/relatives bonus on loyalty, it shows when you hover your mouse over the vassals loyalty value.

This time is better than the last time I tried but I still feel that most of my choices are done without really knowing the consequences, so when there's a success it's more luck than skill...

You might never loose this feeling. MOst fun.

EDIT: The"Peace of God" event might save you, i think you need at least ecclestical balance for that.
Cant find the event right now, otherwise i could tell.

El Jojo · Jan 10, 2012

Aardvark Bellay said:
So your war with tuscany is over ?

In fact, I reloaded, I did not mobilize enough and quickly and my forces were faltering, with Genoa declaring war and dropping 15000 men in Napoli, well I figured I could use a new start. I'm not of reloading a learning game!
Genoa attacked again but not Tuscany, so I put my men in ships and sieged Genoa itself instead of trying to fight their stack of 15k men. I quickly occupied Genoa demesne and could ask for the revocation of their claim.

Aardvark Bellay said:
You might never loose this feeling. MOst fun.

EDIT: The"Peace of God" event might save you, i think you need at least ecclestical balance for that.
Cant find the event right now, otherwise i could tell.

Well, I need the right balance, facing storms and losing ground can be fun but the feeling of not controlling anything does not make for a veyr good game, at least for me.

but as the duke of apulia, there's nice stuff in sicily. so what if you go into debt? pay it off with some usury events

Usury events ? You mean when you lose fisheries and forestries ? It's not that bad but I'd rather not end a war with a naked territory. At least it should be avoided unless it's the price of survival. There's also events which lower your stability (25% chance), I got them twice and was lucky. And the prestige loss and the prospect of spending the next 5 years repaying and not doing anything else...

I also discovered allies are willing to help you drown, I've been allied to Bavaria (maybe that's why Tuscany did not dare this time to attack) and well, Bavaria enjoys attacking people when I'm already in a war, They went to war with half of Morocco and Algeria and then decided to attack Egypt. I stupidly joined, hoping that they would not bother coming from me, but they did and then I discovered that meanwhile Bavaria had signed a peace treaty with everyone, leaving me alone against the muslims. Way more subtle than Tuscany.
It was my mistake to follow them but it was quite funny to think about it as a very elaborate plot and not plain AI randomness.

unmerged(15337) · Jan 10, 2012

El Jojo said:
It was my mistake to follow them but it was quite funny to think about it as a very elaborate plot and not plain AI randomness.

Pretty funny. But seriously, be cautious about joining an ally's war. You are free to stay home with no consequences: the alliance won't break nor will relations fall as far as I know. So you can afford to be very choosy about which wars to join and which to decline.

El Jojo · Jan 11, 2012

So, now that I understand it better I'm wondering how to fight the Egyptians. It seems that occupying the demesne of your ennemy is the only thing which makes the AI negociate, but the egyptian have a huge demesne so how can I force them to give me back some land they took in Italy ? They land on a county and annex it before my troops can reach them and even if I retake the province quickly now it's theirs.
Going to Alexandria and to Cairo seems like a huge task just to reconquer a little county in southern Italy.

By the way, is there a way to go with marrying your girls ? I mean I just try to find a good guy in an italian or spanish court, but considering the inheritance law, they're just a loss, except for the duty which can be nice sometimes.

Universities have pre-requisites ? I have the tech, it spread to Napoli, but I can't build it... Is it event driven ? I have a school and a library in this province, even a large church and a monastery.

Yakman · Jan 11, 2012

El Jojo said:
So, now that I understand it better I'm wondering how to fight the Egyptians. It seems that occupying the demesne of your ennemy is the only thing which makes the AI negociate, but the egyptian have a huge demesne so how can I force them to give me back some land they took in Italy ? They land on a county and annex it before my troops can reach them and even if I retake the province quickly now it's theirs.
Going to Alexandria and to Cairo seems like a huge task just to reconquer a little county in southern Italy.

yes, but if you TAKE Alexandria and Cairo, the rewards are fabulous.

By the way, is there a way to go with marrying your girls ? I mean I just try to find a good guy in an italian or spanish court, but considering the inheritance law, they're just a loss, except for the duty which can be nice sometimes.

for girls in my court who are NOT my daughters, i marry them either to:

a) someone unattached in my court who is awesome. i do not marry them to some dink who showed up because the cumans were having a field day along the dniepr.
b) any sitting nobleman who asks.
c) when one of the younger fellas in my house gets the infatuated event with them, and it is reasonable to wait for a year or two. then i'm being nice.

for my daughters, i marry them off to no one less than a duke or the heir to a kingdom.

Universities have pre-requisites ? I have the tech, it spread to Napoli, but I can't build it... Is it event driven ? I have a school and a library in this province, even a large church and a monastery.

you need certain incomes in provinces before you can build some structures. napoli might not be rich enough.

El Jojo · Jan 11, 2012

Thanks for the clear answers, the pre-requisite income is not displayed so I kept wondering when I'd the possibility to get a useless graduate degree!

Yakman said:
yes, but if you TAKE Alexandria and Cairo, the rewards are fabulous.

Right now I'm more concerned by their ability to gobble my vassals, I mean they land somewhere and before my troops can reach them they won the siege and took the land in a peace settlement, so basically they creep everywhere around me and I can barely fight them on my ground so...
I tried sending a force to Alexandria, thinking they had sent everything they had in my lands, but 20k men were waiting for me in Alexandria... Moreover they have a demesne of 20 provinces, which means that to make they surrender Alexandria you need to invade a huge part of Egypt (considering how tough it was to convince a three province demesne to relinquish one of it's small province even though I controlled 2/3 of his lands).

By the way, is there a guide about battles and how it works, is there a morale system ? Because I had 10k men lose against 800 egyptians, so I guess it must be so...

unmerged(15337) · Jan 11, 2012

It may not be possible to defeat the Egyptians until they have some serious internal problems or are facing numerous other opponents on multiple fronts. So you may have to concede this round and just concentrate on holding your home territory until either you are much stronger or they are much weaker.

In general you will find that your Counts next to powerful Muslim lords are extremely vulnerable and will not last long unless you can bring some serious military might to their backing very quickly.

El Jojo · Jan 11, 2012

Alas, in Italy most provinces are coastal which means they land everywhere and can target all the counties and even duchies they want, I can't hold the whole coast as demesne! They already took Calabria, Lecce, Taranto and Consenza... Even if I strike a white peace thanks to an event, they attack soon after and rampage through the country because they have so many men... And it's impossible to get these territories back in negociations.
Can I hope for Revolts ? Do muslims have a demesne limit which means that maybe the king of egypt will create a duchy of Calabria that I could re-annex / vassalize ?

unmerged(15337) · Jan 11, 2012

They will, eventually, have a period of weakness or vulnerability somehow. But you might have to wait a full generation. Also you can play the "kill the vassal" game against them, too, when they put a sheik in charge of some Italian province. Though it may be difficult to take territory from the King of Egypt himself, it will probably be very easy to wipe out one of his sheiks, and then holding your own defensively is a lot easier than winning an offensive war against him.

Re-trying CK

Lt. General

Captain

Field Marshal

Lord Wuffington of Grumpytown by the barks

Lt. General

Lord Wuffington of Grumpytown by the barks

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Lt. General

Red zone

City of Washington, District of Columbia

Lord Wuffington of Grumpytown by the barks

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Lt. General

City of Washington, District of Columbia

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Lt. General

Field Marshal