(MOD) 650 b.c.

[lukew]

Are you using Death and Taxes as a base (I saw the name in the screenshot)? I hope you are, because this looks really good

[Taylor]

Nice.But I think you should slightly modify the map,to accomodate more provinces.Calabria(Sybaris)in particular should be splitted in at least 3 or 4 new regions,like Lucania(more or less from Salerno till the Ionian Sea),Croton(upper Calabria)and Rhegion(lower Calabria).
Plus,the Umbri should actually be Picenii,judging from their location.
Carthage should have Canaanite religion.
The Israelite culture should be erased,too,since Israelites were nothing but the monotheistic Canaanite tribe wich eventually became the Jews/Hebrews(no,they weren't nor from Egypt nor from Mesopotamia,they were natives,spoke the same language and,before becoming monotheist,they even had the same religion).

Ok thanks for your input! I'll definitely make more provinces somewhere along the road, but it's quite tedious work so after Greece I took a break. Other areas I want to add more provinces to are the Ionian and Black Sea coast and China.

You're probably right about the Carthaginian religion, and the Israelites. I'll look into it .

Are you using Death and Taxes as a base (I saw the name in the screenshot)? I hope you are, because this looks really good

Yeah . I just copied the D&T mod and stripped it of all nations, missions, events, decisions etc etc. Then I modded the map of Greece a bit to accommodate for more countries.

[lukew]

Yeah . I just copied the D&T mod and stripped it of all nations, missions, events, decisions etc etc. Then I modded the map of Greece a bit to accommodate for more countries.

Just a recommendation, be careful when giving making up your new countries sliders. In D&T if a country were to start with full land, full quantity, full serfdom and full aristocracy they would an absolutely enormous army even early game.

[CanOmer]

I look forward to this.

[Taylor]

Just a recommendation, be careful when giving making up your new countries sliders. In D&T if a country were to start with full land, full quantity, full serfdom and full aristocracy they would an absolutely enormous army even early game.

Which values should be edited if I want to change that?

[lukew]

Which values should be edited if I want to change that?

Just when you add sliders to your newly created countries (in history/countries) just be aware that sliders have a big impact, and some countries may need toned down sliders to make them less OP.

[HMAS-Nameless]

Looks really Cool! I would love to help in anyway possible. Maybe use the Assyrian Calendar tho? It was more widely used in the period however the date of 650 BC would be 4100 AC.

[Taylor]

Looks really Cool! I would love to help in anyway possible. Maybe use the Assyrian Calendar tho? It was more widely used in the period however the date of 650 BC would be 4100 AC.

Actually, If I'm not mistaken, I think the Assyrian calendar that you are referring to is actually a modern invention. The "old" Assyrian calendar is the Babylonian calendar and I'm not so sure it counted years. In ancient times, it was customary to count years by monarchs ("3rd year of Nebuchadnezzar" and the like), not by some absolute event. This is not usable in EU3 though, so I had to use another ancient calendar. Since the AUC calendar still rings some bells with a lot of people I decided on that one. (edit: not that the Romans themselves used the AUC counting that often, but it's almost the only remotely viable option out there.)

edit2: as for help - there's a wide selection of things to do . From figuring out cultures and religions in South and East Asia to making flags, to sprouting ideas for missions, events, CBs, govt types, NIs etc etc. Take your pick!

[Nomad93]

Ok thanks for your input! I'll definitely make more provinces somewhere along the road, but it's quite tedious work so after Greece I took a break. Other areas I want to add more provinces to are the Ionian and Black Sea coast and China.

You're probably right about the Carthaginian religion, and the Israelites. I'll look into it .

My pleasure
I'm happy to give feedback to a good mod

[cwmdulais]

this looks awesome, keep up the good work!

[Taylor]

Ok I did some work on cultures in India (*), gave Carthage its correct religion (Canaanite, since at this point in time they weren't all that different from their Phoenician ancestors yet), removed Israelite culture from the map, created some nations in central Asia, Northwest Africa and Southeast Asia and gave every nation in the world a unique color (at least, I hope so: the colors are random with a few exceptions). I updated the screenies and the download in the original post.

Next up: Chinese cultures and then it's back to religions again!

(*) In case you're interested: I basically simply divided India into a Vedic and a Dravidian culture group, then split up those groups into smaller culture areas named after one of their constituent nations.

[AKronblad]

Ok I did some work on cultures in India (*)....
Next up: Chinese cultures...

(.... In case you're interested: I basically simply divided India into a Vedic and a Dravidian culture group, then split up those groups into smaller culture areas named after one of their constituent nations.

Interesting! Please let me know how you set up China culture wise. Because I have in my 399AD mod kept it very simple with a Chinese and a n Ibdian culture, but find it far too simplistic. Will at least have three large cultures in India, BUT China is tricky since it is mostly just Han, right?

[Taylor]

Interesting! Please let me know how you set up China culture wise. Because I have in my 399AD mod kept it very simple with a Chinese and a n Ibdian culture, but find it far too simplistic. Will at least have three large cultures in India, BUT China is tricky since it is mostly just Han, right?

Well, the core is Han, but I think there's room for some other cultures. I found this amazing list on Wikipedia; it might be of use to you too. Other than that I have a 650 BC world map by Thomas Lessman of worldhistorymaps.info (regrettably though, that site is currently down) which also has some interesting information.

[bananafishtoday]

(Again, I'm not 100% but unless someone more well-read comes along... here's my thoughts.)

Ba and Shu should have their own cultures with those names. I'm leaning towards saying Chu should too... they broke away from Zhou in the 800s BC and adopted more of the local customs, and the Zhou successor states viewed Chu as barbarians. Wu and Yue should probably have their own cultures as well. I'm not sure what to call Wu's, although I think it should be "Gouwu." Yue's should be "Yuyue."

For the Yue flag, 越 is probably the safest bet... 戉 is Shang-era, and might still be accurate in 650 BC or might be anachronistic. I don't think 粵 should be used in this time period.

Core Chinese culture group should be called "Shang," given to all the other Chinese states. Functions the same as the Han identity, but a more period-accurate name. I don't know how you'd want to group the cultures, together or separate... I'd personally do Shang/Chu group, Ba/Shu group, Wu/Yue group. But all of them together, or separate, could make sense too, the distinctions are kind of fuzzy. I'd say just go with whatever works for game balance.

The Dian Kingdom might have existed by this point, if you were looking for stuff to add. There isn't really a scholarly consensus on when the Dian people "became" a kingdom or how large their realm was. They'd be in Yunnan though, the blank spot between Ba and Van Lang. I don't know any specifics, only bring it up because they'd be something to look into if you think connecting the Chinese and Vietnamese countries is desirable for gameplay purposes (although they might not have been big enough to abut both groups.)

Aaaaand if you wanted added flavor when making the flags, I could send you a font that imitates the curvy Zhou-era style writing if you'd like. Behold!



Edit: Oh and... be wary of Han-era sources that talk about the people south of the Zhou states. The Qin and Han were the first Chinese to actually make it very far south of the Yangtze, but when they did, they conquered it all (Jianxi/Guangdong/Guangxi/Vietnam) and assimilated the people into the Han identity. So any of their names (minyue, nanyue, et al) are going to be anachronistic for your period. Although there might not even be other names. So if you gotta use 'em then you gotta, just a heads up. This sums it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue

[Cernifax]

Excellent! Very exciting mod!

I have thought about a mod with a 650bc start date many times, but unfortunately I know little about modding, and especially map-modding seems very daunting.

I think the period 650bc-200bc is actually a lot like the period EUIII-vanilla deals with: colonisation, developments in weapon technologies, government types, infrastructure, exploration, trade etc.

One thing I have though about is government types.

I think government types should have a far greater role then in vanilla. Each government type should be a “unique” experience to play. In other words a Greek city state should not play like the Assyrian empire or a Celtic tribe.

This could be achieved by having separate government “branches”, such as City State, Empire, Tribes etc. Jumping from one branch to another should be very very hard.

The City State branch (for example Greek and Italian states) could have massive bonuses to their home province, like 5x manpower, 5x tax etc, but early on would not be able to control much territory without penalties.

The Empire branch (Assyria, Egypt etc) would be able to hold a lot of territory, but would be limited in technological development and vulnerable to regional independence movements.

The Tribal branch could have cheap units but not be able to control a lot of territory.

Each branch would of course have sub-branches, for example Military City State (Sparta), Trade/colonial City State (Athens, Tyre), Expansionist City State (Rome, Carthage(?)).

Just my two pennies worth

[Taylor]

(Again, I'm not 100% but unless someone more well-read comes along... here's my thoughts.)

Ba and Shu should have their own cultures with those names. I'm leaning towards saying Chu should too... they broke away from Zhou in the 800s BC and adopted more of the local customs, and the Zhou successor states viewed Chu as barbarians. Wu and Yue should probably have their own cultures as well. I'm not sure what to call Wu's, although I think it should be "Gouwu." Yue's should be "Yuyue."

I agree with this 100%. What do "Gouwu" and "Yuyue" mean (where'd you get those names)? Btw this makes me think of how the Zhou was officially an empire but in practice if couldn't hold everything together... I was thinking how about we use the HRE mechanic on the Zhou dynasty?

For the Yue flag, 越 is probably the safest bet... 戉 is Shang-era, and might still be accurate in 650 BC or might be anachronistic. I don't think 粵 should be used in this time period.

Well if you say so . I know nothing of Chinese characters so I'm very glad with your help in this respect.

Core Chinese culture group should be called "Shang," given to all the other Chinese states. Functions the same as the Han identity, but a more period-accurate name. I don't know how you'd want to group the cultures, together or separate... I'd personally do Shang/Chu group, Ba/Shu group, Wu/Yue group. But all of them together, or separate, could make sense too, the distinctions are kind of fuzzy. I'd say just go with whatever works for game balance.

I'm probably going with the highlighted suggestion. Your name "Shang" seems accurate.

The Dian Kingdom might have existed by this point, if you were looking for stuff to add. There isn't really a scholarly consensus on when the Dian people "became" a kingdom or how large their realm was. They'd be in Yunnan though, the blank spot between Ba and Van Lang. I don't know any specifics, only bring it up because they'd be something to look into if you think connecting the Chinese and Vietnamese countries is desirable for gameplay purposes (although they might not have been big enough to abut both groups.)

Yeah I'm a bit unsure about whether I should add the south-chinese peoples as nations or just as uncolonized territory. In the rest of the world I went with the criterion: did something important happen to these people during the timeframe or not? E.g. I added Iranian nations to central Asia because they were conquered by Persia in a short amount of time. But for example the Germanics don't get to have their own nation because they simply didn't do much during the time frame. In China I don't really know. The Qin and Han did conquer the south, but was it a swift military campaign or colonization? I don't know.

Aaaaand if you wanted added flavor when making the flags, I could send you a font that imitates the curvy Zhou-era style writing if you'd like. Behold!

That looks cool! Although I have no idea how to type in Chinese ... I found the Zhou character with google translate. (typed zhou, then copy pasted the resulting character and translated it back to english to check) Ok but I'm sure I can find out something. Do you have a download link or do you prefer email?

Edit: Oh and... be wary of Han-era sources that talk about the people south of the Zhou states. The Qin and Han were the first Chinese to actually make it very far south of the Yangtze, but when they did, they conquered it all (Jianxi/Guangdong/Guangxi/Vietnam) and assimilated the people into the Han identity. So any of their names (minyue, nanyue, et al) are going to be anachronistic for your period. Although there might not even be other names. So if you gotta use 'em then you gotta, just a heads up. This sums it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue

Thanks for the heads up! And for your input in general.

Excellent! Very exciting mod!

I have thought about a mod with a 650bc start date many times, but unfortunately I know little about modding, and especially map-modding seems very daunting.

I think the period 650bc-200bc is actually a lot like the period EUIII-vanilla deals with: colonisation, developments in weapon technologies, government types, infrastructure, exploration, trade etc.

One thing I have though about is government types.

I think government types should have a far greater role then in vanilla. Each government type should be a “unique” experience to play. In other words a Greek city state should not play like the Assyrian empire or a Celtic tribe.

This could be achieved by having separate government “branches”, such as City State, Empire, Tribes etc. Jumping from one branch to another should be very very hard.

The City State branch (for example Greek and Italian states) could have massive bonuses to their home province, like 5x manpower, 5x tax etc, but early on would not be able to control much territory without penalties.

The Empire branch (Assyria, Egypt etc) would be able to hold a lot of territory, but would be limited in technological development and vulnerable to regional independence movements.

The Tribal branch could have cheap units but not be able to control a lot of territory.

Each branch would of course have sub-branches, for example Military City State (Sparta), Trade/colonial City State (Athens, Tyre), Expansionist City State (Rome, Carthage(?)).

Just my two pennies worth

Hmm, I have to think a bit on this one. One problem is that a "Colonial City State" does not actually reference the form of government. E.g. Athens was a democracy, but has had tyrants too - something similar should be possible in-game. Maybe the "Colonial" aspect should be in NIs and decisions.

[Keanon]

With Colonising, isn't it possible to cover everything in hordes but give the hordes some really damning modifiers? Would make them coloniseable and retain the provinces cultures.

[Qsdd]

Excellent! Very exciting mod!

I have thought about a mod with a 650bc start date many times, but unfortunately I know little about modding, and especially map-modding seems very daunting.

I think the period 650bc-200bc is actually a lot like the period EUIII-vanilla deals with: colonisation, developments in weapon technologies, government types, infrastructure, exploration, trade etc.

One thing I have though about is government types.

I think government types should have a far greater role then in vanilla. Each government type should be a “unique” experience to play. In other words a Greek city state should not play like the Assyrian empire or a Celtic tribe.

This could be achieved by having separate government “branches”, such as City State, Empire, Tribes etc. Jumping from one branch to another should be very very hard.

The City State branch (for example Greek and Italian states) could have massive bonuses to their home province, like 5x manpower, 5x tax etc, but early on would not be able to control much territory without penalties.

The Empire branch (Assyria, Egypt etc) would be able to hold a lot of territory, but would be limited in technological development and vulnerable to regional independence movements.

The Tribal branch could have cheap units but not be able to control a lot of territory.

Each branch would of course have sub-branches, for example Military City State (Sparta), Trade/colonial City State (Athens, Tyre), Expansionist City State (Rome, Carthage(?)).

Just my two pennies worth

Your idea of the branches won't be so hard to mod actually, its just putting a limit on what you can government change to. For example can a theocracy only shift to an absolute monarchy in the base game. Then again: how would you change branch when you really need to, for example if you're a city state and you've conquered all of greece, how would you change into an empire? My solution is simple, decisions. Like "Form an Empire". You need <insert high number of cities here> cities. This will obviously cause a big stability hit, a loss in money (for the grand building showing your worth), infamy hit, and prestige gain. Thats just my idea on how to simulate it.

[Bazti]

This seems very intresting.

But I will have to agree with the other, your Celtic group is insanely far into Germanic lands. This map should hopefully give you a hint of the spread of Germanic people at the time.



I'm not sure if mixing the Slavic and Baltic culture groups will be that good, but I guess it works for gameplay reasons.

[Nuril]

This seems very intresting.

But I will have to agree with the other, your Celtic group is insanely far into Germanic lands. This map should hopefully give you a hint of the spread of Germanic people at the time.

Germanic_Groups_ca._0CE.jpg/756px-Germanic_Groups_ca._0CE.jpg

Nah, that's six centuries in the future. They'd only have half of that land southward, but they spread along the coasts first (thus the "Netherlands to the Vistula"). About if you took the first major > < points of the borders to the south and drew a line to connect the two and then chopped off the land east of the Vistula.