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Thread: do we need more goods? if so, which?

  1. #1

    do we need more goods? if so, which?

    17blue17, do you remember the aspects about maximum goods and there was also something about if you had more than a certain amount of goods then there was a work-around that had to be done?

    this will be a HUGE undertaking so I will need help if we add these. we will need graphics, province and region data research, supply / demand ideas, and ALOT more.

    so..... this probably wont happen since its usualy just me and 17blue17 doing the work, but if this were done it might balance out the not so sensical supply / demand numbers and also the ratio of on-map goods.

    what goods are UNIQUE and in the TIME FRAME, that we dont have yet? for example, im not adding corn, we already have crops, im not adding sheep, we already have livestock, etc.

    for sure:
    Stone (marble, limestone, etc) - buildings for natives and higher techs
    Whale - for natives in alaska and such, more modern whalers

    not sure:
    Hemp (rope, other uses) [this will only work if we split up naval supplies]
    gunpowder (saltpeter, etc)
    tar [this will only work if we split up naval supplies]
    hops (beer)
    Last edited by Darken; 24-12-2011 at 11:44.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    17blue17, do you remember the aspects about maximum goods and there was also something about if you had more than a certain amount of goods then there was a work-around that had to be done?

    this will be a HUGE undertaking so I will need help if we add these. we will need graphics, province and region data research, supply / demand ideas, and ALOT more.

    so..... this probably wont happen since its usualy just me and 17blue17 doing the work, but if this were done it might balance out the not so sensical supply / demand numbers and also the ratio of on-map goods.

    what goods are UNIQUE and in the TIME FRAME, that we dont have yet? for example, im not adding corn, we already have crops, im not adding sheep, we already have livestock, etc.

    for sure:
    Stone (marble, limestone, etc) - buildings for natives and higher techs
    Whale - for natives in alaska and such, more modern whalers

    not sure:
    Hemp (rope, other uses) [this will only work if we split up naval supplies]
    gunpowder (saltpeter, etc)
    tar [this will only work if we split up naval supplies]
    hops (beer)
    Marble is a good one.

    I don't know that I would bother breaking up Naval supplies, you just risk driving yourself crazy.

    I'm not sure if gunpowder would qualify as the major export of a region.

    Two you might consider would be:

    Spirits to represent various grain or sugar derived alcohols. I think these were traded region to region more than beer was.

    Metalwares for high population regions. These were traditionally made in cities and traded to the various frontiers for raw resources.

    Both of these should be general enough to fit most regions of the world since industrious cultures always find a way to produce them from different resources.

  3. #3
    thanks. ill wait for more input also. im not sure if i should stick with basic raw resources or actual finished goods....

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    17blue17, do you remember the aspects about maximum goods and there was also something about if you had more than a certain amount of goods then there was a work-around that had to be done?

    The only limit I am aware of relates to ATI graphic cards. Many? or All? or a lot? of ATI graphic cards can't handle graphic files longer than 2048.

    So what does this mean relating to the game? In the gfx\interface folder the following files need to be kept no longer than 2048 wide:


    Religion symbols:
    icon_religion.dds and icon_religion_small.dds and illustration_religion.dds

    Trade good symbols on province screen:
    resources.dds

    At the current time the TN trade file is already at 2048. We can add more goods but to do so we need to keep the resources.dds at 2048 width and resize all the graphics in the file to be smaller to fit. Three important notes on this:

    1) They will display in game full size just like they do now.
    2) The quality of the icons in game will almost be the same as now.
    3) The same new file will work for both ATI and Nvidia so we can just have one resources.dds in the mod.

    It just takes some time to do it as you need to make a new blank file and then copy each good one at a time from the old file, resize, then paste in to the new file - making sure they are evenly spaced across the new file. The spacing is the key. A simple quick and dirty resize of the current file goofs up the spacing and in game you get 1/2 a graphic with part of the next graphic type thing.

    If you want additional goods I can do the resource.dds file work for you if you pick out the graphics you want to use.

    I can also make the trade map good graphics which are separate.
    Last edited by 17blue17; 30-12-2011 at 09:18.

  5. #5
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    As far as goods go - here is the list from my personal mod to give you some ideas to pick from (note I use different grains by region to try to get the demand and supply issues under control but I have not had that much luck balancing supply and demand):

    Food by Region
    :
    grain (Europe)
    maize ( North and South America)
    millet ( Africa and India)
    rice (Asia)

    Cloth:
    leather ( Spain, Morocco, South America)
    linen (high price luxury - source of Belgium area wealth)
    muslin (India traditional trade good)
    oriental_rugs ( Middle East / Central Asia)
    silk (high price luxury good historic in both Europe and Asia)
    woolens (lower price cloth in Europe - used by army and navy)

    Animals:
    fish (low price generic)

    herring (high price - historically important - was considered worth going to war over. Eastern Canada Ports, Norway, Northern Scotland, Wales, Denmark, Portugal )

    horses (high price limited areas)
    livestock (cattle)
    wool (sheep)

    Fur:
    fur (North America fur trade like beaver - historically important - can have events ending the fur trade and switching to grains and naval supplies at a certain point)

    sable (Finland and Russian Siberia fur trade.)

    buffalo (historically important North America - can have events ending buffalo and switching to grain and livestock at a certain point )

    Metals:
    coal (late game resource)
    copper
    gold (very limited)
    iron
    mining ( tin etc - lower price)
    silver ( huge in Mexico and Peru / Bolivia)

    Wood:
    brazil (very high price wood and dye from northern coast provinces in Brazil)
    lumber ( Western Canada and Western USA )
    naval_supplies (limited )

    Spices:
    cinnamon (ceylon)
    clove ( Indonesia)
    opium ( India )
    pepper ( India)

    Beverage/Oils:
    beer (Europe)
    incense ( middle east)
    olive ( Spain Italy North Africa)
    palmoil ( Central Africa ports and SE Asia rubber )
    wine ( Europe)

    Crops Specialty:
    cacao
    coffee (East Africa and South America)
    cotton (Non tobacco areas of Southern USA)
    indigo ( India, Guatemala)
    sugar (carribean, Mexico, Brazil )
    tea ( China interior non port areas and one china port )
    tobacco ( Kentucky, Tennessee, Virgina, North Carolina)
    wax ( Baltic / Russia / Central Africa)

    Specialy manufacture:
    arms (late game)
    chinaware ( China ports)
    ebony ( India furniture making)
    glassware ( select areas of Europe and Pakistan)
    metalwares ( New England colonies like New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut )
    ship_building (limted to areas that had historic ship yards)
    steel (late game)

    Gems:
    diamonds (rare high price - South Africa and Brazil and India)
    gems ( lower price colored stones, pearls etc)

    Other:
    ivory
    salt
    slaves
    unknown
    Last edited by 17blue17; 30-12-2011 at 21:28.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    The only limit I am aware of relates to ATI graphic cards. Many? or All? or a lot? of ATI graphic cards can't handle graphic files longer than 2048.

    So what does this mean relating to the game? In the gfx\interface folder the following files need to be kept no longer than 2048 wide:


    Religion symbols:
    icon_religion.dds and icon_religion_small.dds and illustration_religion.dds

    Trade good symbols on province screen:
    resources.dds

    At the current time the TN trade file is already at 2048. We can add more goods but to do so we need to keep the resources.dds at 2048 width and resize all the graphics in the file to be smaller to fit. Three important notes on this:

    1) They will display in game full size just like they do now.
    2) The quality of the icons in game will almost be the same as now.
    3) The same new file will work for both ATI and Nvidia so we can just have one resources.dds in the mod.

    It just takes some time to do it as you need to make a new blank file and then copy each good one at a time from the old file, resize, then paste in to the new file - making sure they are evenly spaced across the new file. The spacing is the key. A simple quick and dirty resize of the current file goofs up the spacing and in game you get 1/2 a graphic with part of the next graphic type thing.

    If you want additional goods I can do the resource.dds file work for you if you pick out the graphics you want to use.

    I can also make the trade map good graphics which are separate.
    oh, ok, that was why i chose to limit the goods like i did, because I have a ATI card...

    ok, great, resizing should be a win / win situation then. thanks. thanks again.

    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    As far as goods go - here is the list from my personal mod to give you some ideas to pick from (note I use different grains by region to try to get the demand and supply issues under control but I have not had that much luck balancing supply and demand):

    Food by Region
    :
    grain (Europe)
    maize ( North and South America)
    millet ( Africa and India)
    rice (Asia)

    Cloth:
    leather ( Spain, Morocco, South America)
    linen (high price luxury - source of Belgium area wealth)
    muslin (India traditional trade good)
    oriental_rugs ( Middle East / Central Asia)
    silk (high price luxury good historic in both Europe and Asia)
    woolens (lower price cloth in Europe - used by army and navy)

    Animals:
    fish (low price generic)

    herring (high price - historically important - was considered worth going to war over. Eastern Canada Ports, Norway, Northern Scotland, Wales, Denmark, Portugal )

    horses (high price limited areas)
    livestock (cattle)
    wool (sheep)

    Fur:
    fur (North America fur trade like beaver - historically important - can have events ending the fur trade and switching to grains and naval supplies at a certain point)

    sable (Finland and Russian Siberia fur trade.)

    buffalo (historically important North America - can have events ending buffalo and switching to grain and livestock at a certain point )

    Metals:
    coal (late game resource)
    copper
    gold (very limited)
    iron
    mining ( tin etc - lower price)
    silver ( huge in Mexico and Peru / Bolivia)

    Wood:
    brazil (very high price wood and dye from northern coast provinces in Brazil)
    lumber ( Western Canada and Western USA )
    naval_supplies (limited )

    Spices:
    cinnamon (ceylon)
    clove ( Indonesia)
    opium ( India )
    pepper ( India)

    Beverage/Oils:
    beer (Europe)
    incense ( middle east)
    olive ( Spain Italy North Africa)
    palmoil ( Central Africa ports and SE Asia rubber )
    wine ( Europe)

    Crops Specialty:
    cacao
    coffee (East Africa and South America)
    cotton (Non tobacco areas of Southern USA)
    indigo ( India, Guatemala)
    sugar (carribean, Mexico, Brazil )
    tea ( China interior non port areas and one china port )
    tobacco ( Kentucky, Tennessee, Virgina, North Carolina)
    wax ( Baltic / Russia / Central Africa)

    Specialy manufacture:
    arms (late game)
    chinaware ( China ports)
    ebony ( India furniture making)
    glassware ( select areas of Europe and Pakistan)
    metalwares ( New England colonies like New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut )
    ship_building (limted to areas that had historic ship yards)
    steel (late game)

    Gems:
    diamonds (rare high price - South Africa and Brazil and India)
    gems ( lower price colored stones, pearls etc)

    Other:
    ivory
    salt
    slaves
    unknown
    thanks for your suggestions / data.

    i think the first thing I need help with is, do i stick with raw resources only?, which is already messed up due to manufactured goods like naval supplies (rope, etc), cloth, wine, and many other goods not occuring in nature. I cant easily change all of vanilla to raw goods only, or can i?

    So, im probably going to have to adopt a model where i make a system of manufactured goods based on raw goods. Somethng where over time, a raw good will or can convert to a manufactured good of the same type.

    In my stubborn mind, TN has to fit on of those two models if i overhaul the goods. I would lean toward the second model. SO, then, what do I do with the manufactury buildings? they need to be balanced either by making decisions to make 'manufacturies' for each manufactured good. That seems silly. I would prefer to remove manufacturies from the buildings file. Any idea if this is possible? if so, we could completely ignore the concept of manufactury buildings and assume that if a province has a manufactured good (not a raw good like iron, fish, grain, etc) then it is working under a manufactury status.

    what do you all think?

    so, this means maybe just add a few more obvious raw goods like whale and ston /marble , then focus on making manufactured godos for each raw good. weapons or tools for iron, jewelry or currency for gold, etc.

    oh, BTW 17blue17, i was wondering what happened to you but then realized it was a time of holidays I dont celebrate most, but at any rate I hope you are doing ok.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  7. #7
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    I guess it is up to you if you want to scrap and redo the whole economic resource model. I'm certainly happy enough with what exists in the short time I've been playing around with the mod. I think it is ok to add a few "tier 2" resources and put some year / population requirements on them to control where they appear.

    I think the current model is ok for a few reasons. One, things like livestock and crops are a good example of generic resources that fulfill the same niche despite maybe not being exactly the same resource. The average guy doesn't care where his meat or grain comes from as long as he gets enough. Two, some manufactured resources don't require much more than cottage or plantation level of industry, or the resources spoil so you actually process them for shipping, such as wine. Finally, the trade good of a province is just showing you the main industry, but not the only one -- Livestock implies leather and meat, but you don't really have Leather without meat, as an example.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cykur View Post
    I guess it is up to you if you want to scrap and redo the whole economic resource model. I'm certainly happy enough with what exists in the short time I've been playing around with the mod. I think it is ok to add a few "tier 2" resources and put some year / population requirements on them to control where they appear.

    I think the current model is ok for a few reasons. One, things like livestock and crops are a good example of generic resources that fulfill the same niche despite maybe not being exactly the same resource. The average guy doesn't care where his meat or grain comes from as long as he gets enough. Two, some manufactured resources don't require much more than cottage or plantation level of industry, or the resources spoil so you actually process them for shipping, such as wine. Finally, the trade good of a province is just showing you the main industry, but not the only one -- Livestock implies leather and meat, but you don't really have Leather without meat, as an example.
    yeah, good point. I guess i could just add a few more, but I would have a hard time justifying adding anymore tier 2 goods without making some kind of event or decision 'upgrade' system. Those are good points about the wine, there was just no way to really ship out grapes without spoiling, i guess. So in that case Wine and things like that might be considered tier 1. Livestock itself would imply that its used for milk, leather, meat, and livestock trading, it probably wouldnt make sense to break Livestock up into tier 2 because we would only get leather and that would loose the ability for a food tier 2 probably (unless they had jerky). So, to put it simply, there may be some goods that have no tier 2 if we overhaul this system. Im ok with that.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  9. #9
    Publicly Certified 17blue17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    oh, ok, that was why i chose to limit the goods like i did, because I have a ATI card...

    ok, great, resizing should be a win / win situation then. thanks. thanks again.


    thanks for your suggestions / data.

    i think the first thing I need help with is, do i stick with raw resources only?, which is already messed up due to manufactured goods like naval supplies (rope, etc), cloth, wine, and many other goods not occuring in nature. I cant easily change all of vanilla to raw goods only, or can i?

    So, im probably going to have to adopt a model where i make a system of manufactured goods based on raw goods. Somethng where over time, a raw good will or can convert to a manufactured good of the same type.

    In my stubborn mind, TN has to fit on of those two models if i overhaul the goods. I would lean toward the second model. SO, then, what do I do with the manufactury buildings? they need to be balanced either by making decisions to make 'manufacturies' for each manufactured good. That seems silly. I would prefer to remove manufacturies from the buildings file. Any idea if this is possible? if so, we could completely ignore the concept of manufactury buildings and assume that if a province has a manufactured good (not a raw good like iron, fish, grain, etc) then it is working under a manufactury status.

    what do you all think?

    so, this means maybe just add a few more obvious raw goods like whale and ston /marble , then focus on making manufactured godos for each raw good. weapons or tools for iron, jewelry or currency for gold, etc.

    oh, BTW 17blue17, i was wondering what happened to you but then realized it was a time of holidays I dont celebrate most, but at any rate I hope you are doing ok.
    I have been around - I just did not see the post at first.

    As far as raw versus manufactured I think you are going down the wrong path. I see buildings being the manufacturing. Also consider the USA versus the CSA. The USA was a manufacturing economy. In comparison the Confederacy was a agricultural economy. So why put yourself in a box?

    I remember back in EU2 that someone told me that they liked trade goods to be regional items to give the game flavor and something to go out and find. So a certain number of trade goods for each region.

    I then look for historic types of things that were actual trade goods for each region which I mentioned in my last post. Also to add some variety and flavor to the game.

    Now I have learned enough over the years not to actually recommend which ones because then you will argue with me till the end of 2099..... so instead I offered some suggestions in my last post and if you pick some or you don't pick any .... it makes no difference to me .

    Just keep one major thing in mind. If we do add graphics its like creating the graphic file from ground zero so better to pick your whole wish list now rather than adding one or two latter because then I have to redo the spacing all over again.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    Just keep one major thing in mind. If we do add graphics its like creating the graphic file from ground zero so better to pick your whole wish list now rather than adding one or two latter because then I have to redo the spacing all over again.
    I've done a little modding before and I know how changing some of those graphic templates can be a pain. Assuming you already have a complete template available, maybe you should just give him the graphic file you use with lots of choices and Darken can choose to use the ones he wants and have some extra graphics available for later?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cykur View Post
    I've done a little modding before and I know how changing some of those graphic templates can be a pain. Assuming you already have a complete template available, maybe you should just give him the graphic file you use with lots of choices and Darken can choose to use the ones he wants and have some extra graphics available for later?
    The problem with my personal mod is that it has graphics borrowed from many other mods. As it is for my own use only this is not a problem. For inclusion in TN it is best for Darken to pick the graphics. I think he has gotten permission from other mods in the past if he sees something he likes or he has found some on his own. He can use my buffalo if he wants as I created that but I am not sure if that is on his list or not.

    I don't mind using what ever graphics he wants. I just don't want to do it multiple times.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    I have been around - I just did not see the post at first.

    As far as raw versus manufactured I think you are going down the wrong path. I see buildings being the manufacturing. Also consider the USA versus the CSA. The USA was a manufacturing economy. In comparison the Confederacy was a agricultural economy. So why put yourself in a box?

    I remember back in EU2 that someone told me that they liked trade goods to be regional items to give the game flavor and something to go out and find. So a certain number of trade goods for each region.

    I then look for historic types of things that were actual trade goods for each region which I mentioned in my last post. Also to add some variety and flavor to the game.

    Now I have learned enough over the years not to actually recommend which ones because then you will argue with me till the end of 2099..... so instead I offered some suggestions in my last post and if you pick some or you don't pick any .... it makes no difference to me .

    Just keep one major thing in mind. If we do add graphics its like creating the graphic file from ground zero so better to pick your whole wish list now rather than adding one or two latter because then I have to redo the spacing all over again.
    oh ok, thanks for explaining. i want this to be the last goods update also, if we do this.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    The problem with my personal mod is that it has graphics borrowed from many other mods. As it is for my own use only this is not a problem. For inclusion in TN it is best for Darken to pick the graphics. I think he has gotten permission from other mods in the past if he sees something he likes or he has found some on his own. He can use my buffalo if he wants as I created that but I am not sure if that is on his list or not.

    I don't mind using what ever graphics he wants. I just don't want to do it multiple times.
    we could probably use buffaolo as a generic wild game for deer and other big animals and the existing fur could be for the smaller animals?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    we could probably use buffaolo as a generic wild game for deer and other big animals and the existing fur could be for the smaller animals?
    You can do what ever you think. In my personal mod I have buffalo in the great plains of North America and then have events to remove them as they historically did. This effects the game as I have them high priced and the replacements are lower price items.

    But I said I was not going to help you pick.......... so I would not have to debate and here you have me doing that........ The mod is yours ....... make it what you want.

    As for Cykur's suggestion of using my graphics file as is - I upgraded to a Nvidia card in early 2011 and my file is too long for ATI so it would have to be remade for TN. So no matter what we do we need to make one for TN.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    You can do what ever you think. In my personal mod I have buffalo in the great plains of North America and then have events to remove them as they historically did. This effects the game as I have them high priced and the replacements are lower price items.

    But I said I was not going to help you pick.......... so I would not have to debate and here you have me doing that........ The mod is yours ....... make it what you want.

    As for Cykur's suggestion of using my graphics file as is - I upgraded to a Nvidia card in early 2011 and my file is too long for ATI so it would have to be remade for TN. So no matter what we do we need to make one for TN.
    Thanks. Well, Im sorry im so difficult to deal with lol .

    I changed Manufacturies to keep Universities and Arts buildings but no other ones will be able to be built without cheating. They will not be considered manufacturies. I think i want all 'manufacturies' to be 'finished' non-raw goods that do not 'spoil' like weapons, naval suplies, wine, beer, etc.

    So now i need help figuring out which goods to add or change in order to make this happen based on the previous concept that wine due to it being considered both tier 1 and tier 2 and livestock to be the same basicly.... so i need help with logical things like iron to weapons, etc.

    also need help with research for provinces for Whales (for whale oil or what?), stone/marble, tar, gems (to break up from diamonds) hemp (for rope), hops (for beer) , Big game (deer buffalo), and any other new tier 1 good.

    does any other (naval supplies will be split i think) vanilla tier 2 good need breaking up into tier 1 goods?
    Last edited by Darken; 01-01-2012 at 12:07.

  16. #16
    Current goods:

    grain
    wine
    wool
    cloth
    fish
    fur
    salt
    naval_supplies
    copper
    gold
    iron
    slaves
    ivory
    tea
    chinaware
    spices
    coffee
    cotton
    sugar
    tobacco
    cocoa
    opium
    livestock
    diamonds
    unknown
    wax
    glassware
    coal
    timber
    dye
    olive
    silver

    Proposed changes:
    Code:
    #Tier 1 = raw resources or resources that will spoil and must be processed before shipping.
    #Tier 2 = Manufactured goods that do not require immediate processing.
    
    grain (crops)        Tier 1 (no tier 2 due to spoilage of baked goods)
    wine                  Tier 2  (replaces crops and produced locally)
    wool                  Tier 1
    cloth                 Tier 2   (replaces wool)
    fish                   Tier 1
    whale                $tier 1
    fur  (small game)  Tier 1 (skins must be processed right away)
    game (deer, bufalo) $Tier 1
    salt                   Tier 1
    naval_supplies (pitch)  *Tier 1
    Tar                    $Tier 1
    Hemp                 $Tier 1
    Rope                  $Tier 2
    copper               Tier 1
    Brass                 $Tier 2
    gold                  Tier 1
    iron                   Tier 1
    Weapons            $Tier 2
    slaves                Tier 1
    ivory                  Tier 1
    tea                    Tier 1
    chinaware           Tier 1  (clay is not easily transportable)
    spices                Tier 1
    coffee                Tier 1
    cotton                Tier 1
    flax                    $Tier 1
    linen                  $tier 2   (replaces flax)
    sugar                 Tier 1
    tobacco              Tier 1
    cocoa                 Tier 1
    opium                 Tier 1
    livestock             Tier 1
    diamonds             Tier 1
    Gems                  $Tier 1
    Jewelry               $Tier 2  (replaces gems or diamonds)
    unknown             special uses
    wax                   Tier 1
    glassware           Tier 1
    Alcohol               $Tier 2  (replaces crops and is produced localy)  
    coal                   Tier 1
    timber                Tier 1
    dye                   Tier 2  (replaces crops)
    olive                  *Tier 1
    Oil (olive, whale)  $Tier 2 (replaces olive, whale)
    silver                 tier 1
    Silverware          $Tier 2 (replaces silver)
    Marble               $tier 1
    we already have permission to use the #63 trade good mod so you can use graphics from there 17blue17 if you want.

    looks like 15 new goods$, 2 old goods changed*

    11 goods so far will be classified as tier 2 and can only be changed if there is a corrisponding tier 1 in the province.

    does anyone have any ideas before we finalize these changes? this is most likely going to be the last goods update so speak now or forever be quiet about goods LOL
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  17. #17
    Publicly Certified 17blue17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    Current goods:


    grain
    wine
    wool
    cloth
    fish
    fur
    salt
    naval_supplies
    copper
    gold
    iron
    slaves
    ivory
    tea
    chinaware
    spices
    coffee
    cotton
    sugar
    tobacco
    cocoa
    opium
    livestock
    diamonds
    unknown
    wax
    glassware
    coal
    timber
    dye
    olive
    silver

    Proposed changes:
    Code:
    #Tier 1 = raw resources or resources that will spoil and must be processed before shipping.
    #Tier 2 = Manufactured goods that do not require immediate processing.
    
    grain (crops)        Tier 1 (no tier 2 due to spoilage of baked goods)
    wine                  Tier 2  (replaces crops and produced locally)
    wool                  Tier 1
    cloth                 Tier 2   (replaces wool)
    fish                   Tier 1
    whale                $tier 1
    fur  (small game)  Tier 1 (skins must be processed right away)
    game (deer, bufalo) $Tier 1
    salt                   Tier 1
    naval_supplies (pitch)  *Tier 1
    Tar                    $Tier 1
    Hemp                 $Tier 1
    Rope                  $Tier 2
    copper               Tier 1
    Brass                 $Tier 2
    gold                  Tier 1
    iron                   Tier 1
    Weapons            $Tier 2
    slaves                Tier 1
    ivory                  Tier 1
    tea                    Tier 1
    chinaware           Tier 1  (clay is not easily transportable)
    spices                Tier 1
    coffee                Tier 1
    cotton                Tier 1
    flax                    $Tier 1
    linen                  $tier 2   (replaces flax)
    sugar                 Tier 1
    tobacco              Tier 1
    cocoa                 Tier 1
    opium                 Tier 1
    livestock             Tier 1
    diamonds             Tier 1
    Gems                  $Tier 1
    Jewelry               $Tier 2  (replaces gems or diamonds)
    unknown             special uses
    wax                   Tier 1
    glassware           Tier 1
    Alcohol               $Tier 2  (replaces crops and is produced localy)  
    coal                   Tier 1
    timber                Tier 1
    dye                   Tier 2  (replaces crops)
    olive                  *Tier 1
    Oil (olive, whale)  $Tier 2 (replaces olive, whale)
    silver                 tier 1
    Silverware          $Tier 2 (replaces silver)
    Marble               $tier 1
    we already have permission to use the #63 trade good mod so you can use graphics from there 17blue17 if you want.

    looks like 15 new goods$, 2 old goods changed*

    11 goods so far will be classified as tier 2 and can only be changed if there is a corrisponding tier 1 in the province.

    does anyone have any ideas before we finalize these changes? this is most likely going to be the last goods update so speak now or forever be quiet about goods LOL
    Silver to Silverware??????????? Seems strange

    Does the 64 trade good mod contain all the graphics needed? If not please find some you want to use.

    Are you sure about your tier 1 to tier 2 idea? Historically the time period was all about obtaining raw goods from the colonies and then converting them to tier 2 goods in Europe and then shipping them back to the colonies.

    So for example:

    1) diamonds and gems ship to Belgium from the rest of the world and get turned into Jewelry.
    2) cotton from USA to Europe to make clothes. The cotton areas of the southern USA remained agricultural. It was Europe and latter the Northern USA that made the tier 2.
    3) silver from mexico and Peru / Boliva was shipped to China to buy China trade goods or to finance war in Europe. Also caused high inflation for Spain resulting in multiple banruptcy by Spain.

    I know EU3 models this very very very poorly.

    A better in game system might be that if a tag owns one cotton province and that same tag also owns another province with a large city and x amount of production tech then the large city trade good could change to the cotton tier 2 good like say clothes. If you loose the cotton province your clothes trade good flips back to something less valuable. So if your enemy makes war against you and takes your tier 1 trade good provinces away it ruins your economy back home in your large cities.

    A system like this would simulate the historical need to go out and grab the tier 1 provinces world wide for their raw materials so you could get the tier 2 trade goods produced in your large core city provinces back home. This was the historical idea of imperialism during the time period: Obtain the raw materials from the colonies cheap, take them back to your home provinces and produce the tier 2 good, and sell the high price tier 2 good back to the colonies.

    You would then put the manufactures back in the game but only have them apply to the tier 2 goods representing advancements in production technology - ie the industrialization revolution.

    I think such a system of linking goods from one part of the world to another part of the world would add some fun. And anything that could improve this linking would add to the game.

    Another example would be owning 1 silver province plus owning 1 iron or 1 copper province allows another province with a large city and x amount of production tech to have weapons for a trade good and armory for a manu which in turn improves your war ability some how.

    Another example would be owning 1 naval supply province allows another province with a port and a large population and x naval tech to have ship building as a trade good and the shipyard manufactury could only be built in a province having the ship building trade good. Loose the naval supply provinces and you loose the ship building tradegoods and your ship yards in your major ports as was historical. At a certain point England really really really needed the Canadian forests to build their ships and at a certain point the other tags ran out of trees to build big fleets.
    Last edited by 17blue17; 06-01-2012 at 00:27.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    Silver to Silverware??????????? Seems strange
    well, i suppose we could change it to coins for gold or silver? I was just trying to hink of something for silver.

    Does the 64 trade good mod contain all the graphics needed? If not please find some you want to use.
    not sure, once i know the final design for the good overhaul, then just use your buffalo and anything you can from 63 trade good mod and if any is not there then leave it blank and i can finish the graphics for the blank ones. will that work? that way i can focus mostly on fixing the events for the new good system and the supply/demand , etc.

    Are you sure about your tier 1 to tier 2 idea? Historically the time period was all about obtaining raw goods from the colonies and then converting them to tier 2 goods in Europe and then shipping them back to the colonies.

    So for example:

    1) diamonds and gems ship to Belgium from the rest of the world and get turned into Jewelry.
    2) cotton from USA to Europe to make clothes. The cotton areas of the southern USA remained agricultural. It was Europe and latter the Northern USA that made the tier 2.
    3) silver from mexico and Peru / Boliva was shipped to China to buy China trade goods or to finance war in Europe. Also caused high inflation for Spain resulting in multiple banruptcy by Spain.

    I know EU3 models this very very very poorly.
    I know i want to establish a tier 1 (raw goods) and tier 2 (manufactured goods) system. I am not sure now how to do it because you are right, colonial nations would want the manufacturing control in the 'mother' land. so my above idea would work for non-colonial nations right? but for colonial nations i need something else.

    A better in game system might be that if a tag owns one cotton province and that same tag also owns another province with a large city and x amount of production tech then the large city trade good could change to the cotton tier 2 good like say clothes. If you loose the cotton province your clothes trade good flips back to something less valuable. So if your enemy makes war against you and takes your tier 1 trade good provinces away it ruins your economy back home in your large cities.
    yes that might work and might be more historicaly accurate. the problem is to figure out the best way to replace 'motherland' goods. maybe i could use the same system i have but instead of switching to a tier 1 it gives the option of the new good OR a tier 2 item? this would of course require some fancy code to keep the AI from making stupid choices but i think i can handle it.

    A system like this would simulate the historical need to go out and grab the tier 1 provinces world wide for their raw materials so you could get the tier 2 trade goods produced in your large core city provinces back home. This was the historical idea of imperialism during the time period: Obtain the raw materials from the colonies cheap, take them back to your home provinces and produce the tier 2 good, and sell the high price tier 2 good back to the colonies.
    right, i remember hearing about this concept before. but this model is meant for corrupt nations who didnt care about thier colony peoples as much, like GBR before 1776 and Spain and so forth, right?
    what would a non-corrupt nation do that actualy cared about its people? or a more free nation that allowed a more free economy? I have to factor corruption and non-corruption into this goods model if i use your idea here. IF i dont incorporate the new goods system of your idea into the corruption system then it will assume all nations will act corruptly.

    You would then put the manufactures back in the game but only have them apply to the tier 2 goods representing advancements in production technology - ie the industrialization revolution.
    i want to keep the buildings out of it, there are ALOT of buildings now, I want Manufacturies to be represented in tier 2 good prices, rarity, etc. Thanks for the idea though.

    I think such a system of linking goods from one part of the world to another part of the world would add some fun. And anything that could improve this linking would add to the game.
    yes i think you are right. The trick will be to have the motherland good changes make sense. I think thats where i need the most advice now other than locations for the new goods for the events that change tier 1 goods. I think i can handle this all but it might take a few releases to balance well.

    Another example would be owning 1 silver province plus owning 1 iron or 1 copper province allows another province with a large city and x amount of production tech to have weapons for a trade good and armory for a manu which in turn improves your war ability some how.
    well, yeah, i think in some cases tier 2 will depend (or be influenced) on more than one tier 1 good so you have a good idea here.

    Another example would be owning 1 naval supply province allows another province with a port and a large population and x naval tech to have ship building as a trade good and the shipyard manufactury could only be built in a province having the ship building trade good. Loose the naval supply provinces and you loose the ship building tradegoods and your ship yards in your major ports as was historical. At a certain point England really really really needed the Canadian forests to build their ships and at a certain point the other tags ran out of trees to build big fleets.
    well i could eventualy make province modifiers that simulate further 'manufactury' stuff, but i dont want to deal with that yet. The events and common files will be enough work as is.

    so, in conclusion, i need further advice on a few of the above things.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  19. #19
    Publicly Certified 17blue17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post


    right, i remember hearing about this concept before. but this model is meant for corrupt nations who didnt care about thier colony peoples as much, like GBR before 1776 and Spain and so forth, right?
    what would a non-corrupt nation do that actualy cared about its people? or a more free nation that allowed a more free economy? I have to factor corruption and non-corruption into this goods model if i use your idea here. IF i dont incorporate the new goods system of your idea into the corruption system then it will assume all nations will act corruptly.
    A non corrupt nation during the time frame????? There was no such thing. They did not consider themselves corrupt - they simply sought to go out and make money for the home land. The non corrupt idea would start in the very late 1800's.

    Read about the Dutch and the colony of Batavia in Indonesia. They did not even want Dutch settlers in the colony or natives for that matter. They imported people from China because it was to be a 100% business. Many Dutch colonies had a hard time getting Dutch settlers to leave the home country.

    Read about Belgium and the congo.

    Same for France. Hard time getting French people to move to French Canada while under French control. Mainly people went there only to get the tier 1 resources for shipment back to Europe.

    In Africa the natives traded the tier 1 resources for guns etc.

    I could see India going from tier 1 to tier 2 but England fought this until the 1900's.

    China rural versus China major city would also be tier 1 separate from teir 2.

    The only tier 1 to teir 2 in the colonies would be after they declared independence and even then it would be hard as the major tags would try to keep the old system.

    The Dutch in some cases did like free trade (in other tags colonies) so they could buy the tier 1 around the world and resell to other major tags. The other majors did not like free trade - they wanted all trade to flow back to the mother country. For example New York was a Dutch Colony and New York was open for free trade and located in the middle of England's colonies which England was trying to force to sell only to England. Solution? The English went to war and took New York from the Dutch and killed the free trade leaking out of New England.

    I am not telling you what to do. You just asked people to speak up with ideas or forever remain quiet - so I spoke up.
    Last edited by 17blue17; 06-01-2012 at 09:12.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    A non corrupt nation during the time frame????? There was no such thing. They did not consider themselves corrupt - they simply sought to go out and make money for the home land. The non corrupt idea would start in the very late 1800's.
    yes, that is probably ture but i cant just force the player to accept this corrupt model can I (if they dont want to)? I can make it mroe rare for AI i guess.

    Read about the Dutch and the colony of Batavia in Indonesia. They did not even want Dutch settlers in the colony or natives for that matter. They imported people from China because it was to be a 100% business. Many Dutch colonies had a hard time getting Dutch settlers to leave the home country.

    Read about Belgium and the congo.

    Same for France. Hard time getting French people to move to French Canada while under French control. Mainly people went there only to get the tier 1 resources for shipment back to Europe.

    In Africa the natives traded the tier 1 resources for guns etc.

    I could see India going from tier 1 to tier 2 but England fought this until the 1900's.

    China rural versus China major city would also be tier 1 separate from teir 2.

    The only tier 1 to teir 2 in the colonies would be after they declared independence and even then it would be hard as the major tags would try to keep the old system.

    The Dutch in some cases did like free trade (in other tags colonies) so they could buy the tier 1 around the world and resell to other major tags. The other majors did not like free trade - they wanted all trade to flow back to the mother country. For example New York was a Dutch Colony and New York was open for free trade and located in the middle of England's colonies which England was trying to force to sell only to England. Solution? The English went to war and took New York from the Dutch and killed the free trade leaking out of New England.

    I am not telling you what to do. You just asked people to speak up with ideas or forever remain quiet - so I spoke up.
    well that would make a interesting CB. I will probably go mostly by what you describe here but i have to leave room for a non-corrupt system for the player or a rare AI.

    It could all be made easier if I just assume that a nation that Explores and wants colonies is automaticly acting corrupt but this might not be reasonable. This would also mean that my corruption system would need to start treating QFTNW as a corruption tendency. any ideas how i can find middle ground here?

    so i guess this is the final thing i need to figure out, and if anyone wants to change the goods or give advice they need to soon because I plan on starting work on this soon, which means giving you the final draft soon.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

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