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Thread: Am I supposed to industrialize this easy with Russia?

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    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Am I supposed to industrialize this easy with Russia?

    It's the late 1840s and I lead industrialization? I just think it has been too easy. Russia barely industrialized during the 1800s, but I managed to become top of the game in barely 10 years. And I didn't even do anything special, just encouraged craftsmen, capitalists and clergy.
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  2. #2
    Don't get overconfident, Russia at the beginning is easy to industrialize fast as it is a huge Great Power with a fairly high population, however later you will see that Germany, UK and France will catch up with you fast. This is because you start with a very low 10% literacy and a low administration due to lack of bureaucrats. So you should instead focus on getting 100% of bureaucrats and then increasing literacy through maximum education spending and promoting clergy by national focus. Also research the techs in cultural tab that increase education efficiency and research. Otherwise you risk falling far behind other Great Powers by 1900 or even losing Great Power status to China or Ecuador. Trust me, this happened to me in my first game as Russia because I ignored low literacy and lack of bureaucrats.

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    First Lieutenant Breyer's Avatar
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    The point still stands that in the early game (and often in the mid game also) russia is far too industrialized to be realistic. It is fine if the russian government chooses a state capitalist party and builds factories everywhere, but there really shouldn't be any laborers to fill them before serfdom is abolished.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breyer View Post
    The point still stands that in the early game (and often in the mid game also) russia is far too industrialized to be realistic. It is fine if the russian government chooses a state capitalist party and builds factories everywhere, but there really shouldn't be any laborers to fill them before serfdom is abolished.
    But serfdom is not in the game, which makes the poor Russians too mobile.
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    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Would changing most of Russias lower class, non soldier pops, to slaves help the situation? Then, have the passing of anti serfdom reforms abolish slavery?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    Would changing most of Russias lower class, non soldier pops, to slaves help the situation? Then, have the passing of anti serfdom reforms abolish slavery?
    Changing a few million POPs into non-consuming and barely producing slaves would probably wreck the world's economy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    Would changing most of Russias lower class, non soldier pops, to slaves help the situation? Then, have the passing of anti serfdom reforms abolish slavery?
    Actually it would be historically. Serfdom in most european countries was abolished before V2 starts, but in Russia only in 1861.

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    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicator View Post
    Changing a few million POPs into non-consuming and barely producing slaves would probably wreck the world's economy.
    I doubt it. It might hit some nations hard, Russia especially, but other nations can take up the slack.
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  9. #9
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is the absent transportation costs, making building factories everywhere in Russia too easy. While it should only be possible in a small part of western Russia and pacific coast. Also, railroads are too easy to build and population density doesn´t matter, while industrialization only happened in densely populated areas. Vicky 2 economic complexity is pretty shallow if you look closely.

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    Second Lieutenant Celdur's Avatar
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    There need to be cities implemented in Vicky 2 and for an "economic focused" game its pretty simple in this regard...

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    The serfdom in Russia should really be simulated. I'd suggest there being a special "Serf" pop which would fill the same role as farmers and labourers but with the exception of being unable to promote/demote. Would work nicely I think.
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    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    In other words, slaves?
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  13. #13
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    Nope. Slaves can't consume anything, as has been stated so many times before. It would unrealistically wreak the Russian economy.

    Besides it's also wrong from a historical POV: slaves had no rights, serfs had rights.

    It would be easier to just make a special law, "serfsdom", which limits promotions into labourers.

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    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    In other words, slaves?
    No, not slaves. They're like farmers and labourers except that they can't promote/demote anywhere.
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    No need for special rules for Russia... make a special "Population Density" modifier that would affect craftsmen promotion. There, simple and elegant and would apply to other countries. Easier than create a new Pop type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagá View Post
    No need for special rules for Russia... make a special "Population Density" modifier that would affect craftsmen promotion. There, simple and elegant and would apply to other countries. Easier than create a new Pop type.
    But what you fail to see is that the situation was special in Russia. They were the only country that still had serfdom. That is what prevented Russian industry from really growing. Also, what does "Population Density" have to do with this anyways?
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  17. #17
    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    No, not slaves. They're like farmers and labourers except that they can't promote/demote anywhere.
    So pretty much slaves, that pay taxes.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    So pretty much slaves, that pay taxes.
    The point people are trying to make is that slaves produce only a fraction of what farmers produce, have no consumption, and no rights. This would:
    a. Cause Russia's economy to be absolute garbage due to producing a miniscule amount compared to any other civilized country.
    b. Russia would have almost no internal market, only what is consumed by the middle/upper class.
    c. In the event that Russia had universal (weighted or equal) voting before it was abolished, serfs would not be able to vote and it would basically be a wealth voting system.

    Slaves and farmers are very different in this game. What people are suggesting is modeled is that serfs have the same rights and roles as farmers/labourers, with the explicit exception of mobility (class and geographic).

  19. #19
    First Lieutenant Breyer's Avatar
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    Lack of social mobility for serfs.
    Massive cost of building factories in remote parts of russia.
    Near-impossibility of getting raw materials to those factories without highly developed rail nets.
    Rail nets too easy to build.

    The first two really only apply to Russia (in europe), and the second two are general points in the game. The amazing thing is that russia is already set up to be a backward nation--it gets a research tech that severely reduces industrial research, and its literacy is very low.

    The only thing that might help is setting russia back even further technologically than it is (in industry). Russia was a massive resource exporter, but simply lacked the infrastructure to convert those resources to finished goods before the late 1800s. Before WW1, the russians exported coal from the south and imported it from the baltic in the north to fuel their factories there because there were no rail nets avaiable to bring it north directly. This is not modelled in game.

  20. #20
    First Lieutenant Breyer's Avatar
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    Also, serfs weren't slaves. The main issue is that russian serfs weren't educated at all and so had no conception of life outside of their villages.

    I might add that Austria also "suffers" from becoming too industrialized in-game because its pasants are also way too mobile, and its poor transportation networks not properly modelled. So these are not issues that only affect russia.

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