Carnage Al Dente - A CptEasy multiplayer AAR

[Mushro0m]

Since the italian navy is trapped in the mediterranean sea, suez & malta are the only places italy could strike. malta wouldnt be that much of a change, so i think the suez channel will be the goal of our duce. (maybe tel aviv too)

[AUSTERLITZ]

This is epic,very similar to what would have happened even if moscow had fallen.As long as stalingrad and caucasus are soviets the reds fight on coz much of the industry has been transfered to siberia.

I think the attack is coming on suez or damascus/syria region.

Onto that strategy i think garrisons with AT >>militia for solid defense.For constant retreating yes militia may be better.

[Baltasar]

As far as I understood, the event hasn't fired yet. The Soviets didn't lose specific key provinces but had too few VP left to them. That's two different things, isn't it?

[mnplastic]

As far as I understood, the event hasn't fired yet. The Soviets didn't lose specific key provinces but had too few VP left to them. That's two different things, isn't it?

The event already fired and the player already chose "to the Bitter End". That is it. He got 30 dissent and became immortal like Highlander

The Soviet Union has 100% progress surrender but is neither surrendered nor has government in exile, as I thought before. As surrender progress is 100% new surrender will not fire.

[Cybvep]

Yes, but I doubt that a bunch of friends will ignore HRs, as that would annoy the Axis players a lot.

[Zid]

What a nasty surprise! Your strategy was sound. Well played! But it's hard to see a winning strategy for the Axis after this:

1. Now the USSR has become almost indestructible. You can either occupy a defensive line in order to contain them (but this will alow them to recover) or try to keep up the pressure inspite of ever extending supply lines.
2. The Uk is almost impossible to take as well due to British naval supremacy. And paratroopers are limited by your house-rules.
3. The US is around the corner which is likely to expose the weaknesses in Japan's overextended empire. Landings in Europe are sure to involve increasing numbers of troops as well.

Perhaps an offensive into the Middle East? Take control of Suez? Not worth too much without Gibraltar, though ...
Is their some way to accomplish victory via objectives? Is there a clause in your houserules that grants the Axis victory if it holds out until a certain point in time?

Nevertheless, I love this latest twist. It looks as if this Carnage match will follow historic lines closer than any before.

I don't know why the Axis agreed to continue like this. Soviets should not be fighting the Axis any more. A forced NAP would be the just thing to do.

This is very strange, it seems that the Axis has to conquer everything from Minsk to Vladivostok in order to defeat the SU...

Don´t worry, Axis fans. We also play using Victory conditions. If USSR falls, I´m quite sure the Axis will get their 12 required VCs. Currently, I think the Axis are hovering around 9 or so.

Ridiculousl, really. Russia can get rid of 30 dissent in few days, if they bother about it at all since you mentioned that combat wasn't really affected. I thught your rules said that Russia had to select bitter peace?

Anything that extends the AAR is good for the reader; excellent

Hoping to see some good two front struggles going on a la historical WW2, with battle toing and froing across France, while Axis forces try to hold onto their VPs...Much life left in this AAR yet it seems!

On that note, how is the VP situation looking right now? Is the Axis in a position with >2/3 of VPs yet, where they can dig in and hold out until the end of 1945? To win, the Axis will need to keep large reserves at hand to fight off naval invasions; thus preventing large footholds on land being gained.

Axis are holding far more than the required 1/3 of VP. They are up to about 2/3s, but it is Allies/Comintern who need 2/3 VP in order to win.

On the USSR extended ice time :

Axis don't have to take every province to beat the Bear. Axis must switch his war objectives to total conquest and keeps pressuring the Bear. The surrender progress bar will still matter vs National Unity. E.g. USSR bought about 3-6 months of time. No more. Getting rid of 30 dissent will take out production for a moment...

We experienced that in our 1st MP game (check signature) and the Bear did not survive very long after he refused the bitter peace. The result remained the same. Given the entanglement USR is facing (Japan in the Far East and Caucasus; Germany & friends in the West), I don't see how he will prevail.

3 months extra time. And I think USA is too late for anything serious, so I am placing sure bet on Axis victory.

This is not how I understand it to work. USSR has 100% surrender progress, and can´t surrender at all. IMHO, it would be better if the "fight to the bitter end"-choice would set USSR NU to ~85%, allowing the Axis to force a surrender without taking every single USSR province.

Also, 30 dissent takes about 2 months production time to get rid of for the USSR, not a few days. IMHO, giving USSR a flag with penalties to morale and production for half a year would be better.

Well this soviet collapse happens very frequently in MP aars.I think one of the very big problems is that soviet players place their army right on the polish border.They can't hold it,have to retreat disorganized fashion and have difficulty setting up a second organized defence.

I think the use of this defensive line is far superior,yes u can say wtf u are abandoning minsk and kiev without a fight,but i think for soviets its irrelevant as they lose these anyway if they deploy further west.

Second,large use of garrisons.2GAR 1 AT is a division u would want on every single province of ur def line.Garrisons cost half ic,low mp,dug in are almost as good as inf.The AT brigade is crucial for soviets.I start at 36 so put one of these in every province those starting in 38 may have to do a alternate province thing.
The low IC of garrisons is really helpful for soviets.

I urge to build more 3 brigade divs to properly man such a vast defensive line.
Another key thing is briatin and america must supply as much supplies as possible to soviets in trade so that soviet player can ignore this slider for IC as much as possible.This is imp as AT brigades and ART brigades built enmasse cost supplies.

Anyway thats just a theory of mine,on maybe a new way to defend the soviet lines.

Axis have pretty much won this i think,but it was a great fight especially from britain.
Looking forward.

In one of our previous games, Daphne used that strategy as USSR. It failed, but of course the Red Army was quite heavily damaged when it reached the built up forts. A fighting retreat is the hardest type of battle to fight. In this game, SirHenry had to fight an enemy that was superior in numbers, technology and morale. Definately not a position I envy.

The flaw of this strategy is that you lose a lot of territory in no time. Furthermore, like with city walls in middle ages, you have to breach only one or a few places and the line crumbles. Look at how Germans, in this AAR, crossed rivers facing numerous opposition in France and recently at Moscow.

It definately works in SP, but I am unsure if it actually works in MP.

Germans get "Destiny" bonus it lasts 5 months. So time is very important. If Germans fly through Ukraine even without using "Destiny" as there is no resistance then they have 5 months to defeat Soviets from the Don river. The fighting retreat is better which allows the Soviets do build more units with the "Motherland".

I´m not sure if this was mentioned, but Daphne was actually quite clever. He waited to use the destiny bonus until some time after Barbarossa started, when he met more serious resistance. That allowed him to get more use of "Destiny".

I have no experience with MP, and only little with SU. the one time the German (AI) attacked me, I was in Berlin by spring 1943. apart from better building, obviously, and researching doctrines, how different is MP?

Like comparing a purring housecat to an enraged Bengal Tiger.

That you are chained to by the ankle.

CptEasy clarified that the BP rule is still in place. If the Axis captures Stalingrad and keeps other important cities, it's all over for the Soviets.

Exactly.

And I hate to disapoint CptEasy (who am I kidding, I love to disapoint him!), but Stalin actually lives. If USSR surrenders, I think that Berija takes over after (presumably) killing Stalin, or surrendering him to the Nazis. If they fight on, Stalin stays in power. But as it stands now, Stalingrad is the only thing keeping Stalin alive.

Update later tonight.

[Zid]

The event already fired and the player already chose "to the Bitter End". That is it. He got 30 dissent and became immortal like Highlander

The Soviet Union has 100% progress surrender but is neither surrendered nor has government in exile, as I thought before. As surrender progress is 100% new surrender will not fire.

Connor MacLeod can still be killed by cutting off his head.

Yes, but I doubt that a bunch of friends will ignore HRs, as that would annoy the Axis players a lot.

We are friends first, and deadly enemies second. A close second.

But CptEasy makes sure we build different teams each time. So we need to be polite to each others, as todays opponent may be tomorrows teammate.

[Cybvep]

Thanks for your response, Zid. It's good when the players clarify various things for us, readers.

[mnplastic]

Connor MacLeod can still be killed by cutting off his head.

Good point But the head was already cut off (surrender event fired) and he is still alive. This is an improved Highlander. Unless you know something more I think you will have to have real life negotiations in respect of the Soviet Union surrender terms as the game will not offer anything else.

I can only guess that a new surrender trigger could be re-set by allowing the Soviets to recapture some provinces which would lead to less than 100% surrender progress. However, even then "the Bitter Peace" will not be probably re-set.

[Zid]

I can only guess that a new surrender trigger could be re-set by allowing the Soviets to recapture some provinces which would lead to less than 100% surrender progress. However, even then "the Bitter Peace" will not be probably re-set.

This is kind of why I would like the USSR NU to go up if they choose "Fight to the bitter end". It doesn´t make much sense if USSR would surrender after capturing more VP and then loosing them again.

[Saithis]

You guys are really getting off-topic again. While I can appreciate the desire to discuss mechanics, we've gone over this a hundred times. Please stick to discussion of the AAR directly and not the mechanics themselves, thank you.

[loki100]

There have been some PM inquiries why this thread was closed and what was done wrong exactly. I will make it clear, hopefully, for everyone commenting on this thread: We want you to discuss game mechanics in the regular HoI-forum, not in AARland. CptEasy is free to open a thread in the HoI3-multiplayer subforum where all purely game mechanic related things can be discussed as much as you like, that is for CptEasy to decide. We also do not want you to discuss the House Rules while the AAR is ongoing. It is pointless. You are free to discuss them before and after an AAR, not while the AAR is running. We want the AAR-thread to be used for posts discussing the AAR itself, the actions and strategies of the players, the current situation in the world, what could be the next logical/preferable steps to victory... As this is a gameplay AAR we know that game mechanics will be discussed, but there must be a direct relation to the AAR. Once a discussion advances into purely game mechanics it is OT and will be deleted. People offending against this will receive a warning, repeat offenders will receive infractions or in the end will be banned from the AAR-thread.

To give you an example of what is allowed: Discussing what the benefits and drawbacks are/were of the sub-warfare for the German player in this game. Did it do him good or was his overall war performance hampered by his sub-warfare? How many convoys did he sink. How many subs did he lose. Should he have focused less or more on subs in this game, should he have positioned his subs elsewhere for better effect in this game. Did the allies have to divert war assets from another theater to combat the subs...

To give you an example of what isn't allowed: Throwing around generalisations like "Subs are not worth it at all", "You shouldn't bother with subs" or "In my opinion subs are way underpowered.

More generally, given the regular problems with breaching AARland rules in the comments around the Carnage AARs, we will apply these rules perhaps more strictly than in other game-play or multiplayer AARs. As ever, we would suggest think before you post and to ask one of the mods in advance if you are not sure.

[Cybvep]

Ok... I hope this AAR is not dead. Can CptEasy confirm that he will continue posting new updates?

[Marshall Daub]

This is one see-saw of a war between the Axis and the Allies. Just when you think one side gets the upper hand, something occurs that makes you have to reassess the odds. Congratulations to the Axis on a well-earned victory in the east, but it is troubling that the war must go on against the Soviets. It's clear that an all-out push to sieze Stalingrad is in the near future.

My respect for Zid in this game, he is a regular magician pulling rabbits out of his hat. Even if the offensive into France stalled, he still shows he can strike at will in the west and will support the Soviets however he can given the circumstances. I'm really interested to see where this goes once the United States joins the fray.

[CptEasy]

Ok... I hope this AAR is not dead. Can CptEasy confirm that he will continue posting new updates?

Of course I will continue. One of the problems, however, is that the Carnage Group like comments on game mechanics, but we definately do not want to break any of the rules in this fine part of the forum. So, this is what we'll do. Everytime when an event have occured in the game, concernig game mechanics, that we in the Carnage Group would like to discuss on the forum we will make a very small note of the topic in the text an refer to a link to a thread in the MP sub-forum. In this thread we'll discuss the specific topic at hand and not drift away with all posible kinds of topics. By doing this, we keep both the story-line and related comments completely free from not allowed topics, as described by Loki above. I sincerely hope that all who enjoys the Carnage series can stick to this (and if you don't enjoy them - don't bother to write).

Problems are there to be solved. I hope we are finished here. If everything goes as planned, Zid will post an addendum in the end of the week and I will post, as usual, a new chapter during the weekend.

Cheers,

[richelieu1628]

Thanks Loki for re-opening.

First of all, a big hat-tip to the Captn for innovative headline choosing. As I was reading the bitter peace chapter I kept on wondering, why 'roar', what is he on about? What sort of stunt will turn around the fight right before Guderian's tanks roll up to the Kremlin? Genuinely didn't see that one coming.

And a second hat-tip to Zid not just for keeping the game wide open, but also for these peeks into what's going on on the other side.

Now all that's left is an iron determination for the eventual losers not to throw in the towel too soon, so that we can see an awe-inspiring endgame...

Cheers!

[Leviathan07]

Glad to see this re-opened!

How will you enforce the house rule, that the USSR player must surrender, when the three big cities have fallen? Will you use a custom event, or hope that the "normal" game mechanics somehow make a surrender happen?

[CptEasy]

Glad to see this re-opened!

How will you enforce the house rule, that the USSR player must surrender, when the three big cities have fallen? Will you use a custom event, or hope that the "normal" game mechanics somehow make a surrender happen?

There's supposed to be a commando by which you can force it (key-board wise). If not, by modding the files.

[azedalis]

Glad to see this re-opened!

How will you enforce the house rule, that the USSR player must surrender, when the three big cities have fallen? Will you use a custom event, or hope that the "normal" game mechanics somehow make a surrender happen?

Since SU is Human I would assume if Stallingrad is taken they both would agree to a certain line on the map and where they would have a line with each other but no further combat would take place. They might also agree to a min.max number of troops on the border also. IE a agreement not enforced by the Game mechanics. One of the players has 2 computer and could keep one on the soviets so the AI doesn't take over. But this is just an idea.

We all love this AAR and good luck to everyone involved

[Avindian]

There's supposed to be a commando by which you can force it (key-board wise). If not, by modding the files.

I normally don't comment on spelling errors, but the idea of a commando slipping into the Soviet Union, putting a gun to the General Secretary's head, and forcing him to surrender or die is, for some reason, really funny to me

Love the AAR! Keep it up!