Carnage Al Dente - A CptEasy multiplayer AAR

[Jagdpnzr]

Hate to see such a momentum shift with gamey tactics, but I have to hand it to Zid. Guy is playing his rear end off and getting absolutely everything out of the UK. I think now with the complete collapse of the southern front, it will be nearly impossible to defeat the bear before the USA joins the Allies. It's surely looking bad for the Axis at this point however, will still be watching to see if Cpt can pull yet one more card out of his sleeve. We shall see

[Caleb The Great]

Personally I admired the British swift move, when they took out Romania. It might have been a bit unfair, because Ai is stupid usually, when it comes to amphibious landings, but the axis losses were hardly very great, just some italian divisions and the Romanian army that is quite poor from the start and used more as "a filling". I'm sure the axis can cope with that, after all CptEasy has shown formidable skills, when he has had to deal with the british and the German war effort has also been quite convincing. Given that the Japs haven't suffered severe blows and they are advancing to the oil territories of Middle East, it just might turn the balance against the allies later on.

I'd like to hear too about the Far Eastern theatre in the next update, if possible.

[mnplastic]

Or you can pause the game once a week or once a month to allow players to make some important decisions with a bit more thinking.

[loki100]

Ok, I've just deleted about 15 posts as off topic or insulting other posters. Just why do you think that you can carry on this way, with this style of debate in this AAR? The Carnage group produce great AARs on the basis of how they want to play HOI3, if you don't agree with their rules there is no need for endless commentary. Make sure that all posts stay on topic, since none of the AAR writers are causing any problems I'd strongly suggest some regular posters in this thread take a deep breath and reconsider their comments and posting behaviour.

[Thelamon]

1.
As always thanks for the update!

2.
The ENG landing in Romania including the surprising "Quickpuppetisation" was truly a severe blow to the already fumbling, faltering and failing Axis (Though absolutely unrealistic... But Captain and Daphne have made a clear statement for this AAR and I respect that.)
Zid is an excellent player and keeps playing a masterfull game this round, fully staying in within the framework of the Carnage HR for for the current session!

-> The one big misgiving I have about going through Russian Istanbul/Bosporus is that again the historical "Three-block-war" is beeing ignored and Russia treated/ played as just another allied Country.

The Soviet Union and the Allies were extremely antagonistic, with deep distrust between the factions. Allied troops on Russian soil (same goes for its immediatesphere of interest like the Blacksea and Neighbouring countries) would have been unthinkable for paranoid Stalin and Churchill would never have put a full ENG Armygroup at the mercy of Russian controlled suplly lines far from home.
(Historically even the Allied crews risking their lives bringing the huge amounts of material aid throgh Murmansk were treated almost hostile by the Russian harbour authorities.)

But all in all the Axis deserves this punch in the guts:

GER for ignoring the entire Romanian front from the get go + leaving it to AI controlled Romanian troops of absolutely inferior quality + ignoring the importance of a Russian controlled Bosporus

and ITA for tinkering about with a few divisions on the Eastern front and no human controlled backup in the very long frontline.
Actually "Il Capitano Douche" has earned the honorary title of "FM Capitano-Paulus" for perfectly reenacting the fate of the GER 6th Army in Stalingrad in small scale with Italian Divisions.
He overxtended far ahead of the front line completely dependant on crappy romanian troops along his flanks...

3.
The Axis loses this game because there doesn't seem to be enough cooperation between GER and ITA and no real cooperation with JAP.
(Example: If ITA takes part in Barbarossa why not at least give two GER Panzer Divs as Exp Forces to ITA to have some Punch and Backup on that part of the Front?)
The same odd absence of strategic cooperation was already present when Axis was only facing ENG. (Helping the Luftwaffe out with a few Interceptors every once in a while is merely tactical day to day business.)

And as someone put it JAP is/was playing it's own game "EU2 stile" - apparently with the focus of painting the Asian map yellow no matter how usefull this is in the greater scheme of things. This yellow will soon enough be turning blue...

-> Why did ITA and JAP never focus on Suez when it was still possible? Getting the IJN into the Med would have been the only relevant thing prior to Barbarossa?!

4.
I also still wonder what ITA is doing since the Spanish screw up? (Other then sending three Divs to their early and pointless deaths in the East.)
We know absolutely zero (0) about ITAs strength and plans.
Knowing Captain as a formidable player I have only two explanations:
a.) He role-plays typical Italian "Bunga-Bunga" leadership.
b.) ITA's main thrust/ strategie/ concept has been hidden from us so far.

5.
The good thing: The new house rules of the Al dente round will let us see a long defensive battle into Axis territory untill the Allies can claim victory.

Have a nice evening Carnage gang and friends
Thel
(Waldorf mode off)

[Holy.Death]

I am not sure if Captain isn't simply out of luck and options - he was unable to secure either Gibraltar or Egypt (I blame Germany for the first, Japan for the other), his navy took serious blow some time ago, along with his remaining army in North Africa, Malta is still not secured, Spain has been lost, now Romania has fallen and with it his frontline troops... I won't say he is a bad player himself, but he is Italian and without some help from other Axis members there is little he can do, he had a couple of nice moves (like his conquest of Spain and distraction of the remaining french reserves) but now reached his strategical limits.

[Dirked99]

I'm going to file my post on page 28 under "foreshadowing".

Really wondering how the Germans will do to rebuild their line. But if the Russians in the South are as weak as Cpt. says then it might be a race to see who can close the gap.

I commend Cpt. on his efforts to save the lines, but it is hard to be everywhere at once.

Cpt. I was wondering if you ever thought about production licenses from Germany to put together Divisions or Corps of Rapid Reaction forces (Light armor and mot.) or divisions to of a similar build to help advance on the Russian front?

[loki100]

Ok, this is getting a bit tedious, as even more posts have now been deleted as off topic. There are to be no off-topic posts, no discussions of the flaws in HOI3 and, since the topic has been done to death already, no discussion of the house rules used by the Carnage group. Keep your comments to the AAR posts and the unfolding game.

[Hytzon]

Interesting moves by the English player, having control of the seas is always a nice thing! Leaving Romania practically undefended and the Bosporus open was a huge mistake.

I have played GB in several multilayer games and I know that once India is lost, the manpower gain is very low. I think this game is far from over, in fact I believe the Axis still have the upper hand. From an overall perspective:

* USA is still months from joining the war and even when they do, their need time to get into position and their army is most likely mediocre. They might not even get the upper hand against Japan until later in the war. Remember that Japan now has an extreme amount of manpower and also its leadership must also be in good shape. Production will most likely lack behind though.

* Soviet Union is very pressed on the center and northern front, though they will likely get some breathing space for a while now. But their leadership is much lower than Germany, especially after losing so much territory. This means they will lack behind in officers and technology, if they pump out a lot of units their officer ratio might fall dangerously low. Japan can also start to put some pressure on the southern front if they decide to leave Suez be.

* Italian mainland is secure and it still has a sizable army and air force. Losing the navy was a shame, but Italy could still utilize CAGs from land bases to do serious damage in the Mediterranean while its armies plays firemen on the European mainland.

* If GB starts to fight a big scale land war, they will hurt their own manpower substantially. This can slow down production of new units and even stop its armies for a while. Likewise, USA will also have troubles with its manpower after a few campaigns. Also, how much of its army can be supplied for a longer time in Romania is a good question.

Btw. I think all this talk of "cheesy or gamey" strategies are pointless. The game is played with HOI3 and all its limitations and the group decided on a set of rules, everyone knows these at game start. Then it is the players job to safeguard against instant landing etc. In Multiplayer the historical flavor is played down and it usually gives rise to better games, we don't always want the Axis to lose... Keep in mind that it still feels like you are fighting a real war on strategic scale, actually the feeling is much greater than SP simply because you don't know what to expect. The operations between countries can be organized, the time pressure is extreme since pausing is avoided and the campaigns lasts for months.

Edit: One thing our group did to handle the invasion issues was to reduce the amount of supplies a unit carries, we changed it from 30 days to 15 or 20 days. This makes big ports more important, especially if you face logistical bombing from the defender (could have happened in Romania).

[Thelamon]

I have played GB in several multilayer games and I know that once India is lost, the manpower gain is very low. I think this game is far from over, in fact I believe the Axis still have the upper hand. From an overall perspective:

I disagree, reasons below:

* USA is still months from joining the war and even when they do, their need time to get into position and their army is most likely mediocre. They might not even get the upper hand against Japan until later in the war. Remember that Japan now has an extreme amount of manpower and also its leadership must also be in good shape. Production will most likely lack behind though.

The USA will have been under human control for a significant stretch of time once it joins the war and Maxyboy is a competent player. The usual weakness of a USA ruined by the AI will not be as severe, as Maxyboy will have had time to
1. Optimize research and get the right doctrines and tech
2. restructure and rebase the US armed forces with hindsight (have capable naval task forces ready to go on the west coast, disband usuless crap like Cavalry, Militia, Gar to gain its Manpower for better units/ or upgrade them to better units, in case they are not reserve units which should be disbanded in FTM 3.05)
3. Upgrade the small existing forces to decent tech levels
4. set up the long time production runs with "time expensive" stuff

+ From what I have seen of the IJN even the starting USN will bee too much to handle for the JAP, especially as the US can focus its navy on the Pacific with KM and RM neutralized by the ENG RN already. (And Zid has a sizable RN Carrier force he might send to the Pacific in Order to help the US crush the IJN quick.)

* Soviet Union is very pressed on the center and northern front, though they will likely get some breathing space for a while now. But their leadership is much lower than Germany, especially after losing so much territory. This means they will lack behind in officers and technology, if they pump out a lot of units their officer ratio might fall dangerously low. Japan can also start to put some pressure on the southern front if they decide to leave Suez be.

- The SU might just have gotten the time it needed to survive with the French and Romanian setbacks for Axis, as GER will need to shift significant forces around in order to stabilize its frontline thus losing punch on the Spearheads going for Moscow.

- Mainland Asia is just too large for the JAP to do more than nibble. If he ever reaches the SOV southern front through Iran, the JAP leg-inf will take forever to advance to significant places + have crappy supplie lines + be trapped once the USN joins the fray.

* Italian mainland is secure and it still has a sizable army and air force. Losing the navy was a shame, but Italy could still utilize CAGs from land bases to do serious damage in the Mediterranean while its armies plays firemen on the European mainland.

ITA is the Axis wild card as we know little of what they have built other than that it is supposed to be strongly garrisoned.

- But ITA does have limited IC and leadership (it i´s more a major minor country than a true major) and in this round hasn't even annexed Yugo or anything else for a slight gain in that regard.

- If ITA truly focuses on defense of its mainland there will be very limited forces available for any significant adventures in Europe/ or the firebrigade job on the Axis Westfront.

- This game promises to go much longer than 41 - and ITA just hasn't got the resarch (leadership) and IC to keep up in the mechanization progress of the land forces. 43+ ITA will be facing mostly mech, mot and armored formations on the western front with mostly leg Inf, that wont be able to stand long vs. Allied armor.

* If GB starts to fight a big scale land war, they will hurt their own manpower substantially. This can slow down production of new units and even stop its armies for a while. Likewise, USA will also have troubles with its manpower after a few campaigns. Also, how much of its army can be supplied for a longer time in Romania is a good question.

- ENG has already met its objective in Romania I don't see Zid staying for a drawn out land battle once GER shifts some armor south. Zid will most likely take his victorious and notorious BEF army to strike elswhere.

- I don't see ENG committing to a drawn out land battle untill the USA joins.
Both US and ENG will certainly use their IC to get the most value out of their limited manpower eg. we will see fewer and fewer Allied leg-Inf and more and more armor and mechanized formations (through upgrading) over time - and time is on their side, as long as they keep Russia in the game.
(Not to speak of allied Naval and Air superiority through sheer IC.)

[Cybvep]

From what I have seen of the IJN even the starting USN will bee too much to handle for the JAP

Absolutely not. The JAP player can focus on the Navy right from the start, since China can be beaten easily in HOI3. That means that Japan has at least 3 years to prepare for the USN. MP income is very high after the annexation of China and resources are probably not a problem at all. With so much time at Japan's disposal, it is easy to produce many INF divs with only a fraction of Japanese IC and since the UK does not oppose the Japanese invasion of India in most MP games, Japan doesn't really need that many troops unless it starts the invasion of Central Siberia and the Middle East. Land-wise the Pacific War is decided by quality, not quantity, since there is little room for land units. Naval and air units are much more important in this theatre.

Mainland Asia is just too large for the JAP to do more than nibble

Until the USA joins the war, the JAP player doesn't have much else to do, so he can conquer most of Asia quite easily. Supply-issues are most likely his gravest concern.

- This game promises to go much longer than 41 - and ITA just hasn't got the resarch (leadership) and IC to keep up in the mechanization progress of the land forces. 43+ ITA will be facing mostly mech, mot and armored formations on the western front with mostly leg Inf, that wont be able to stand long vs. Allied armor.

I agree, but I think that the game will be decided by 1942. In MP a year of constant action is a loooooooooong time and in HOI3 things tend to happen more rapidly than IRL.

[Thelamon]

Absolutely not. The JAP player can focus on the Navy right from the start, since China can be beaten easily in HOI3. That means that Japan has at least 3 years to prepare for the USN. MP income is very high after the annexation of China and resources are probably not a problem at all. With so much time at Japan's disposal, it is easy to produce many INF divs with only a fraction of Japanese IC and since the UK does not oppose the Japanese invasion of India in most MP games, Japan doesn't really need that many troops unless it starts the invasion of Central Siberia and the Middle East. Land-wise the Pacific War is decided by quality, not quantity, since there is little room for land units. Naval and air units are much more important in this theatre.

1.
You are describing what an experienced player can acomplish with JAP and what he should be building.
But the JAP in this AAR doesn't seem to do his homework concerning the IJN!
All he has managed so far is losing every single engagement vs. the RN + losing a lot of ships including a CV.
This indicates the Carnage Al Dente JAP is behind in naval doctrine and techs and from the screens we saw no interesting new builds could be seen in combat.

Until the USA joins the war, the JAP player doesn't have much else to do, so he can conquer most of Asia quite easily. Supply-issues are most likely his gravest concern.

I was referring to the enourmous central Asian continent known as the Soviet Union + its fringe states. It is way to big for a Leg-Inf JAP to do much + a logistics nighmare + a trap once the US joins.

I agree, but I think that the game will be decided by 1942. In MP a year of constant action is a loooooooooong time and in HOI3 things tend to happen more rapidly than IRL.

I'm still holding my thumps for a long campaign and encourag the Axis to fight their losing battle to the last drop of blood!
No surrender you hear!

[Holy.Death]

Japan seems overstretched and can fall easily. You don't even need to destroy all colonial forces, just contain the mainland and you'll render all forces overseas unable to fight, because supply convoys can be destroyed by the Royal Navy or the United States Navy. With the IJN weakened and underdeveloped - as Thelamon pointed out - it's very likely that Japan won't be able to defend its strategical islands on the Pacific or the mainland itself.

[Curwen]

Another good update, thanks! I'm content with the way stuff evolved personally.

I had expected the axis front to crystallize in Western Europe (granted I know a whole lot more about the history than I have experience with MP games, so that's probably the reason for my lack of imagination and foresight). The unexpected (by me) English move for a new Crimean campaign keeps the game open and I can't wait to see what the next update holds.

With regards to the whole "gamey" or "exploity" tactics debate, I guess no headway is being made since these concepts are horribly undefined. I suggest the subject is dropped in this thread till a board-wide consensus for a solid definition for "exploity" is found.

[loki100]

and again ... you want to discuss the game mechanics about subs and the cost benefits etc, open a thread on the main HOI3 forum, comments here are to be strictly about the progress of the AAR, there's been too much off topic chat etc

[Baltasar]

Could we possibly get an update what Japan is doing in the meantime? It'd be very interesting to see if they can step in to save the Euro-Axis.

[Marshall Daub]

I think a large portion of the Axis' problem in this campaign has been the poor showing of the Kriegsmarine and the Regia Marina. The British player has more or less unchallenged control of the Channel and Mediterranean and the Axis navies are unable to support each other, and the loss of their initial fleets and the concentration on land warfare means that it's unlikely this is going to change anytime soon - this gives the British player a massive advantage in mobility and being able to choose when and where he fights.

If the Japanese player can close the Suez and bring his fleet into the Mediterranean, it may help curtail some of the British player's freedom of movement and help the Axis keep the initiative.

[Leviathan07]

It's not an exploit. They should have known the rules, and it's not that gamey to have a minor ally crumble under pressure. Romania was a weak link in their strategy - having them control territory all across the USSR makes the map look nice (color instead of just grey) but it's a hell of a risk when you know they are a minor ally with just a small handful of VPs. Romania was a weak ally in real WW2, to whom Germany did not entrust entire sectors of the front line if it could be helped. And they're just the same here. The entire southern front was entrusted to them and BAM! now it's gone.

And the Romanian coastline is not THAT difficult to guard! They could have closed off the Bosporus and that would have prevented amphib maneuvers altogether.

Kudos to the British player for managing to exploit that Axis weakness. I don't think this will really stop the Axis in Russia, though. The Brits will pull out soon enough, leaving it to token Italian forces to re-puppet Romania, and the gap in the eastern front will be plugged by German forces.

Looking towards long-term planning, though, the Germans would be wise to have their own troops re-occupy the Ukrainian and Russian provinces. Lest they suffer the same loss of control again, once Italy is knocked out of the war.

[Leviathan07]

I think a large portion of the Axis' problem in this campaign has been the poor showing of the Kriegsmarine and the Regia Marina. The British player has more or less unchallenged control of the Channel and Mediterranean and the Axis navies are unable to support each other, and the loss of their initial fleets and the concentration on land warfare means that it's unlikely this is going to change anytime soon - this gives the British player a massive advantage in mobility and being able to choose when and where he fights.

If the Japanese player can close the Suez and bring his fleet into the Mediterranean, it may help curtail some of the British player's freedom of movement and help the Axis keep the initiative.

The Japanese player could stomp Turkey and close off the Bosporus too. After seizing the mid-east...

[FrozenWall]

How is the Japanese Russian situation? Have they declared war yet? It would seem Japan is in an excellent position to strike at the Soviet underbelly through India/Iran.