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Thread: Carnage Al Dente - A CptEasy multiplayer AAR

  1. #501
    US player from this game. I know we are trying to put the invasion discussion on ice, so I'll try not to push anyones buttons here. I just want to spread som light on the issue.

    First off, we DO listen to the ideas and feedback we get in the AAR topics. Part of the reason why new invasion rules were not implemented for this round was that once they surfaced in the last AAR, we already started this one.

    We do like modding... we are just too eager to start the next round to pause and implement it. Rest assured, we'll invest in modding for our next round (not saying it will be about invasions though).

    Two short comments about invasions.

    In most our games Germany fires off a hit-Russia-with-all-I-got strategy at the start of Barbarossa. Resulting in a fairly quick, but less interesting campaign. By adding restrictions on invasions (modding or house rules) we will enforce that behaviour rather than forcing Germany to a more balanced set up and hopefully a longer more challenging game.

    While I'll agree on that the system does not reflect reality in terms of preparations and aftermath of an invasion I still argue that landing forces in areas with no defending units at all should not be overly hampered.


    About the last AAR report... I wasn't aware that Russia lost that many units in the opening months of the attack. Must been around 20 divisions, not counting the garrisons that were deliberately left behind. Especially the armor units will be missed. Oh, and about Russian defence strategy. I believe Sir Henry (Russian player) intended an in-depth-defence... but was overwhealmed by the onslaught and simply couldn't retreat in the intended fashoin.

    On the US front not much to report (I'm lousy at taking screen shots in the heat of the battle so don't expect an illustrated report). With undeclared war 3 now in effect I'm raiding the waters all the way up to Britain and the French coast for enemy subs using Island as a base. So far without any luck. UK and USA has been using spies to raise Germanys threat since day one.
    Last edited by Maxyboy; 02-04-2012 at 23:20.

  2. #502
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    What about radars? Any comments on that?

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    What about radars? Any comments on that?
    I can confirm that there is no house rule against them.

  4. #504
    Field Marshal Baltasar's Avatar
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    The issue is just the cheesy landing to knock out single unit and then withdraw. If the UK had attempted a serious invasion (still easy enough since he can withdraw at his leasure) it'd be a different story.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Baltasar View Post
    The issue is just the cheesy landing to knock out single unit and then withdraw. If the UK had attempted a serious invasion (still easy enough since he can withdraw at his leisure) it'd be a different story.
    I must disagree. Destroying enemy forces when it can be done at little or no cost to yourself, is a viable and valid strategy.
    "If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

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  6. #506
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    I see no point in discussing this matter further TBH. The same arguments are being repeated over and over again.

  7. #507
    Field Marshal Baltasar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of liberty View Post
    I must disagree. Destroying enemy forces when it can be done at little or no cost to yourself, is a viable and valid strategy.
    It would be if it was not based on deficits of the game. As it is, he's invading, squashing a unit or two, then disappearing. Hardly a realistic tactic on a corps level.

  8. #508
    Cupholder Curwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Awrence View Post
    There is a ridiculous amount of criticism for by far the best, most realistic, and most balanced MP AAR I've read.
    Yeah I second that.
    No, I only LOOK dead. Thank you for asking.

  9. #509
    got the T-shirt Thelamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Awrence View Post
    There is a ridiculous amount of criticism for by far the best, most realistic, and most balanced MP AAR I've read. If you want realism, read a history book. There's bound to be some unrealistic moves. Blame Paradox, not this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curwen View Post
    Yeah I second that.
    Don't get the Carnage "Tifosi" wrong! All of us love this AAR series and have an "emotional-fan" relation to what is going on, including taking sides with factions etc. ...
    And of course we know everything better after reading the respective AAR - with hindsight and no in-game-stress-level

    Just think of us as as friendly convention of "Waldorf and Statlers":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njU...eature=related

    We rant and whine but would never miss the next episode of the Carnage Show...

    Cheers to the Carnage Team and keep it coming!
    Thel

    PS
    On a more serious note: There is always room for improvement via small tailor made mods or usefull Houserules. The Carnage fan-base by now includes some very capable modders who could probably fix a few things for the C-groups next round.
    Maybe the Captain should start a discussion thread for HR and/ or Modifications for improved balancing in upcoming rounds.

  10. #510
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    This is still most enjoyable.
    curtis: I'm not even going to bother with this thread. The skids to hell have already been greased on this baby.

    Brain Surgery - The AAR!

  11. #511
    Komrad Pagliakov Paglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelamon View Post
    On a more serious note: There is always room for improvement via small tailor made mods or usefull Houserules. The Carnage fan-base by now includes some very capable modders who could probably fix a few things for the C-groups next round.
    Maybe the Captain should start a discussion thread for HR and/ or Modifications for improved balancing in upcoming rounds.

    Modding or not modding...


    When players stick to HR and, as it's the case in that specific group, when players know each others and have a long history of gaming together, HR can deliver good results and thus, spare you from the modding approach.
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  12. #512
    Close the worLd,.txEn eht nepO GAGA Extrem's Avatar
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    I still wonder about the radar issue, esp. when there is no house rule against it.
    Maybe another player can comment? :>

  13. #513
    got the T-shirt Thelamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paglia View Post
    Modding or not modding...


    When players stick to HR and, as it's the case in that specific group, when players know each others and have a long history of gaming together, HR can deliver good results and thus, spare you from the modding approach.
    I would also favor simple Houserules over modding esp. as this group of friends is not prone to unfair play or cheating etc. .
    Keeping the game "vanilla" has its benefits for MP.
    On the other hand (IRC) Captain E.& Co. were not so sure if the "Insta amphib Invasion and extraction balance problem" could be solved with HR only.

    The proposed HR was: Evacuation/extraction/loading of invading forces only at ports level 2+ - on ships docked in port.
    Argument that this wouldn't cut it was something like:
    "In the heat of the battle units might withdraw to fleets anyway - sticking to the HR might therefore not always be possible and causea lot of micro..."

    That is why a modding approach might be of interest to the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by GAGA Extrem View Post
    I still wonder about the radar issue, esp. when there is no house rule against it.
    Maybe another player can comment? :>
    Gaga - you have got to be aware that the Carnage gang is not a crew of "HoI3 nerds" - (like some of us ) who have read every guide and Wiki + the forum. They are not min-maxing to get the most of the game engine etc. . You can see that in their naval set up or the broad range of units kept etc.
    Thereby the Carnage group plays it with historical flavour and it turns out to be quite refreshing and immersing!

    My bet on the answer to your question is: The Carnage gang didn't value radar high enough - so they rather built other stuff.

  14. #514
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    I see no point in discussing this matter further TBH. The same arguments are being repeated over and over again.
    This is excellent advice, keep the comments to the superb AAR, discuss your views about flaws in the game engine or about feasible MP rules on the main forum
    Remember, whatever the question, the answer on 18 September is Yes ...

  15. #515
    Sergeant Ceaser543's Avatar
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    I am eagerly anticipating what sort of tactics Japan will use in the Pacific and I think that it will quickly become the most exciting theatre, with the industrial might of the USN and the fortress pacific that I'm predicting.

  16. #516
    I imagine with the HR the JAP player will take all USA holdings in the Pacific off the bat. But considering the danger the USSR is in, the USA may well ignore the Pacific and focus on opening the 2nd front in Europe.

  17. #517
    Colonel CptEasy's Avatar
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    Hi Guys! Impressive amount of comments. I follow them with great pleasure as usual. I hope you don't mind if I don't respond to them all but pick a few - as you have answered yourself or by other players in the group. I don't mind you critizing our rules or lack thereoff, as long as it is in a constructive manner. As I am the only ex-military and a realism-nerd I probably agree the most with Baltasars rant but we make decisions by consensus. Also, as I think Maxyboy pointed out, this game started BEFORE I posted some of UKs cowboy-landings in the LAST AAR, so many of your excellent comments from that round has not have the chance to be implemented yet. I also feel I sort of owe Loki a beer for all the times he have to act Police in the Carnage-world

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler01 View Post
    Can we get the JAP player to comment on his decision to puppet China? Whether the influx of AI div and lose of IC and Leadership (which maybe why GB seems to have better docs) was worth it?

    Nice to see the JAP player in Persia, although the delay in starting the operation negates most of the benefits. Why didn't it happen with Barsbossa start?
    If I recall right he had by accident two war goals - both annex and puppet - so it became chaotic. Our plan was actually to Annex.

    About Persia - well, we thought Barbarossa would start earlier and did not want Japan to be too spread out. Yopu my recall Japan started an attack against Iraq but pulled back. This was due to the mess with the delayed Barbarossa. So the delay was mostly due to some internal chaos and difficulties to decide. During gameplay it so extremely intence so it ios difficult to formulate brand new plans from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    I have wrote one advice in the 131 post and gave some crucial numbers in the 206 post.

    If you know that waters are crocodile infested would you stand or, even worse, sleep by the water?

    If you afraid to miss landing Brits to be half way down to Paris then leave your troops half way to Paris
    Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelamon View Post
    I totally agree with Ugly, Plastic and Cyb, the defense of GER is lacking and he gets what he deserves for not having a mobile defense inland to support the perimeter troops in case of attack. Having them picked off and killed by small invasions without a flexible response...
    Only tells us one thing: ENG just go for a real second front - Axis has the West undermanned!

    Concerning overload on GER - having 2 players on Russia but only one for GER can hardly be justified. Esp. with these insta-invasions going on.
    You are of course right. It was a choice of doctrine to go all out on Soviet and we (Germany) paid the price in the West. He lost a lot less than the Red Army, though.

    We are 8 players and even though we plan far in advance we often have to play without 1 or 2 due to busy schedules. In this case, Axis had one guy on vacation and suffered for it. It is that or no game. And being overloaded is something that happens most players in each game. UK are battered in the middle, Soviet is battered after Barbarossa and Germany is of course in the real shit now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    We all love this AAR. I cannot believe that anyone could get a different impression. We like it, so we care. That's why gamey exploits are annoying and cause so much discussion.
    Thanks Cybe (and others). As I said above - I don't mind critizism as long as it is a constructive manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxyboy View Post
    US player from this game. I know we are trying to put the invasion discussion on ice, so I'll try not to push anyones buttons here. I just want to spread som light on the issue.

    First off, we DO listen to the ideas and feedback we get in the AAR topics. Part of the reason why new invasion rules were not implemented for this round was that once they surfaced in the last AAR, we already started this one.

    We do like modding... we are just too eager to start the next round to pause and implement it. Rest assured, we'll invest in modding for our next round (not saying it will be about invasions though).

    Two short comments about invasions.

    In most our games Germany fires off a hit-Russia-with-all-I-got strategy at the start of Barbarossa. Resulting in a fairly quick, but less interesting campaign. By adding restrictions on invasions (modding or house rules) we will enforce that behaviour rather than forcing Germany to a more balanced set up and hopefully a longer more challenging game.

    While I'll agree on that the system does not reflect reality in terms of preparations and aftermath of an invasion I still argue that landing forces in areas with no defending units at all should not be overly hampered.


    About the last AAR report... I wasn't aware that Russia lost that many units in the opening months of the attack. Must been around 20 divisions, not counting the garrisons that were deliberately left behind. Especially the armor units will be missed. Oh, and about Russian defence strategy. I believe Sir Henry (Russian player) intended an in-depth-defence... but was overwhealmed by the onslaught and simply couldn't retreat in the intended fashoin.

    UK and USA has been using spies to raise Germanys threat since day one.
    I just want to bump up Maxyboys reply again as it really answers many of your questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelamon View Post
    Don't get the Carnage "Tifosi" wrong! All of us love this AAR series and have an "emotional-fan" relation to what is going on, including taking sides with factions etc. ...
    And of course we know everything better after reading the respective AAR - with hindsight and no in-game-stress-level

    We rant and whine but would never miss the next episode of the Carnage Show...

    Cheers to the Carnage Team and keep it coming!
    Thel

    PS
    On a more serious note: There is always room for improvement via small tailor made mods or usefull Houserules. The Carnage fan-base by now includes some very capable modders who could probably fix a few things for the C-groups next round.
    Maybe the Captain should start a discussion thread for HR and/ or Modifications for improved balancing in upcoming rounds.
    Thanks and thanks. Your comments are obviously top ranking when it comes to being constructive and to the point. Much appreciated. Yes, we have had some offers like that before which I am very thankful for. As things have developed, Maxyboy has managed to find time to go through our House Rules and find modding solutions for as many as possible. Experiences (and all of your comments) from last and present games are taken into concieration and we'll try, as always, to create a ballanced game which inhibits gamey stuff but without hampering creativeness too much. That's the trick, isn't it. So prey Maxyboy really manage to do all the things we have agreed on and you'll see we have tried to adress a few, but not all, of the things you have brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelamon View Post
    Gaga - you have got to be aware that the Carnage gang is not a crew of "HoI3 nerds" - (like some of us ) who have read every guide and Wiki + the forum. They are not min-maxing to get the most of the game engine etc. . You can see that in their naval set up or the broad range of units kept etc.
    Thereby the Carnage group plays it with historical flavour and it turns out to be quite refreshing and immersing!

    My bet on the answer to your question is: The Carnage gang didn't value radar high enough - so they rather built other stuff.
    Question is - how do you define nerd. Drifting of at work thinking about how to really nail UK is what I concidering being quite the nerd. And proud to be one . But true - few of us goes down in the micro-details in the game. I think it is because it don't matter that much. In MP, tactical decisions matter so much more. A bad move and you lose so much more than what you could have gained by maximizing a specific unit or stack. But of course a few things is just lack of knowledge. Like radar. Think we have more or less just missed out on that one but we probably have to discuss it. It seem like having a HR on max 5 in one place is a "common" MP HR...?

    And oh boy... when will paradox include a spell-check on this page. Technology makes you lazy and ignorant...


    Zid has promissed his addendum later tonight and than I'll give you an easter chapter tomorrow as I will be away from the net for a couple of days. Cheers, guys!
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  18. #518

    Addendum to Chapter XIV - Operation Barbarossa part III

    Addendum to Chapter XIV - Operation Barbarossa part III





    With the threat of the Kriegsmarine gone, the RN went on a ASW spring offensive. (the german sub in Goban Spur was not sunk, the Italian sub in Taranto is belived to have been sunk). Actually finding subs was deemed a great success, though convoy losses were still great.



    With the Germans occupied in Russia, and the Kriegsmarine shattered, Operation Needle continued. Cherbourg and Calais were hit first, and within days the defenders had fallen. It was obvious that Germany had sent most of it´s army east. The Luftwaffe were also nowhere to be seen. Surprisingly, the only opposition in the air were a few Japanese fighters. The RAF kept complete air superiority over their targets, and could bomb at leisure.

    The Army grunts were amused that most of their field rations now either were Japanese or Italian. It seemed that Axis ships would offload their cargo in Boston, and then that same cargo would immidiately be loaded on Brittish merchantmen. Even explosives and some ammo were sent over, and a few bombs dropped over Cherbourg were printed "RETURN TO SENDER" with big red letters.

    Authors note: The Axis kept trading with the US, giving the US supplies in exchange for money. As UK were trading in dept with the USA, a large amount of supplies were sent to the UK via the US. Does any of the Axis want to shed light on this? Did you really need all that money?





    After finishing up operations in Calais, the Army went on to Den Haag. Unfortunately, only a single German brigade was lost.

    The attack on Denmark also went as planned. A quick amphibious operation, taking a lot of land and then retreating.


    The HMS Ark Royal also managed to launch a port strike against docked subs in Nantes. The entire flottillia was belived to be sunk.

    A short update from me this time. I´m not sure if I should discuss the landings any more. I think that Maxyboy summed up my feelings pretty well. Also, one might wonder why no attacks were launched on Italy? It seemed Italy had chosen a very different defense strategy, that made this type of unopposed landings impossible.

  19. #519
    Colonel CptEasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zid View Post

    Authors note: The Axis kept trading with the US, giving the US supplies in exchange for money. As UK were trading in dept with the USA, a large amount of supplies were sent to the UK via the US. Does any of the Axis want to shed light on this? Did you really need all that money?

    Also, one might wonder why no attacks were launched on Italy? It seemed Italy had chosen a very different defense strategy, that made this type of unopposed landings impossible.
    Heh, well, concerning the deal with the US. My experiences from previous games is that Italy is the first to lack for resources. As the our "master plan" hinted at a long game I was really catious here and wanted a good stockpile. So building up a little bank with American dollars felt reasuring. But I kept the deal a little too long, I agree.

    More about the Italian defence strategy later on.

    I will post a new chappter shortly.
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  20. #520
    Colonel CptEasy's Avatar
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    Carnage al Dente

    Chapter XV - Free the Frog





    Players:UK, USA, 2xUSSR, GER, ITA, JAP




    Recap: Barbarossa is in full swing and with this, the real race for total victory and world domination. The Bear is attacked by a multitude of nation, with Germany at the front. United Kingdom is doing what they can to tugg at Axis attention. With Spain joining the Allies a new, albeit narrow, front has opened in southern France.

    Authors note: Plz note that Zid posted his addendum to last chapter just before this one.
















    March, 1941

    Although the capacity of the Italian convoy war had lost the edge of its sharpness, it was still far from insignificant. Veteran submarines had rich hunting ground in the Alboran Sea which by now had become a feared place for British seamen.















    March 24th, 1941

    As the Royal Navy had been active in the Atlantic, the Regia Marine had been on patrols close to the Italian boot to hunt the Soviet submarines which constantly seemed to spy on along the Italian waters – probably acting eyes for the Brits who had lost probably all of their submarines. After some chasing, a Red Navy submarine group was sunk.

    So far so good. However, the Royal Navy quickly shifted oceans and attacked the Regia Marina. This time, the Italians were in better order and with some air cover they gave a better fight. Still, the margins were on the British side and several Italians ships were sunk, including the Pride of their Navy, the Vittorio Veneto. The old British battle ship the Royal Oak was sunk too, and the Queen Elizabeth was first reported sunk but apparently managed to reach port.

    All in all, this was yet another embarrassing defeat for the Regia Marina.

    Authors note: As seen, it was not to farfetched to have sunk a few more UK BBs… Also, to avoid getting to much criticism about by fleet on the picture – if I recall right, this was just a back up fleet to secure the flank of my main navy (which I think previously had clashed with Sommerville’s BB-fleet on the picture).
















    March 30th, 1941

    After the victory at Odessa, the South Front of the Red Army seemed almost completely crushed and it stumbled backwards, giving weak defensive battle at times. The Germans had rather effortless pushed for the Tylihul River, capturing a cavalry division, but had stopped as the Red Army has dug in on the other side.

    For the Italians, this was easy battles, and the weather was slowly becoming better.
















    April 6th, 1941

    In the South, the Germans held at their side of the Tylihul, but the Romanians, led by an Italian motorized division, had crossed the river and spilled in, threatening the Russian back. They also stabbed down at the Crimea peninsula without meeting any significant resistance.

    In the rest of the front, the Wehrmacht won land and pushed the Russ back. Except garrison divisions, left in all major cities, the Red Army seemed not to lose more troops to encirclements.
















    April 23rd, 1941

    As the Italian-Romanian troops spilled over the Tylihul and the Wehrmacht started a few cross-river offensives, the Red Army fell back. There did not seem to be much fight left in the Red Army at this sector of the front.

















    April 20th, 1941

    The Japs worked at a steady pace, pacifying India and the inferior British puppets there. The Brits themselves had only left a single division which, as far as the Italians understood, was defeated.
















    March 28th, 1941

    Back in Europe, the Brits never stopped attacking the joint Italian-German forces retreating from Spain. They had to attack through dense forests and they had to fight hard for the land. Still, the Axis slowly gave ground… and for quite obvious reasons…
















    April 2nd, 1941

    The Brits had also attacked in the North West of occupied France. The Germans were not strong enough to repel them and had called for the Hungarians (AI) to aid them. The Brits were helped by the fact that they had air dominance, as much of Luftwaffe was in the East. Japanese fighters gave some support, but not enough to really turn the tide. A German panzer division was lost, which seemed to have been one of the Brits main objectives, as a larger part of their force was focused there.
















    April 12th-14th, 1941

    Crossing rivers and struggling through forests was not best done with armor and motorized and the Brits took expensive losses on their way forwards. They did, however, have support from naval guns. This did rain some bad news on the Axis but not enough to make them flee.

    Instead, a British attack north of Bordeaux (strangely without no river penalty) threatened to cut the southernmost Axis regulars off and they chose to retreat in good order.
















    April 27th, 1941

    In late April, the situation seemed to have stabilized somewhat. The Axis did not have enough to push the Brits back, but it did not seem likely the Brits could blitz through the defenders either. It was a fragile calmness.




    ...............................

    Happy Easter fellas'!I will eat eggs, pickled herring, candy and drink beer... but not neccessarily in that order. Will also have a diplomatic meeting with the American head of delegation (Maxyboy) in the neutral city of Helsingborg. Very nice. I foresee modding discussions
    Cpt Easy's multiplayer AARs
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