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Thread: NOpoleon - Alternate history, sans Napoleon

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Savoy View Post
    Or all of it? :P
    I was trying to be moderate.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    I was trying to be moderate.
    As the Ottoman Empire showed, not everything has to be moderate. Heck, they took all of Anatolia, the Balkans, Iraq, Egypt, and the Mediterranean Coast. I don't see how any local government would be able to hold out against the Persians for very long. But it's Heroicnoodles' choice.
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  3. #23
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    I'm sorry, but a lot of your ideas here just don't make any sense. I know you're asking for discussion, but you clearly have a very set idea of what you want here. You can have your own mod, there's nothing wrong with that, but trying to pass this off as plausible events is silly.

    The UK would not be able to claim that much of the US. While they could possibly occupy the land in battle, a significant portion of the population was alive during the Revolution, there's literally no way the British could hold that land. Also, your borders for Louisiana's territory are wrong. that's the 1818 Louisiana borders. Unless you've got an awesome butterfly net, I don't see the treaties going exactly the same way they did with a full US.

    Your Austria is too powerful. First of all, it would just be boring to play as them. Second of all, they just seem unreasonably strong. Austria should be the European powerhouse in this scenario, but controlling what OTL became the entire industrial regions of France, Italy, and Austria-Hungary is probably too strong. Unless you have a plan for breaking Austria down a bit during the game, I wouldn't suggest making it that powerful. While it's not as important to game start, as the period progresses(certainly by the 1860's), the French will not put up with Austrians on their land. There will be a revolt against them. And with the areas you've given Austria, it will be big.

    I was going to assume you didn't really play with the colonization much, but since you clearly did at least in Burma/China, I just want to say NO. Do not give a giant slice of western China to Britain. Really, you shouldn't just hand Burma to them either, but that's more okay. This will have horrible consequences and honestly just doesn't make any sense.


    A random side note: Will colonization end up going as normal? Honestly I've always thought that European colonization of useless areas as a measure of pride was an odd development, especially in much of Africa. It's worthless land that ended up costing them dearly. While it's certainly likely as arms races build between nations and they start flexing their muscles wherever they can, I've always thought it would be interesting if one of the alternate history mods decided to have the Europeans not really develop a sense of colonization on the level they did historically. There will definitely be some colonization in Africa still, but it will mostly stick to the small trading posts or rich wealthy areas that it did in the times before the era. These areas would also probably be very strongly assimilated compared to most of Africa historically was. Possibly even greater political integration like how Algiere was for France. That said, the major downside here is most of Africa going to waste as there's no people really worth mentioning to take up the non-useful lands that the alt-Europeans wouldn't occupy here. And it would be semi-challenging to get a Europe that doesn't have any interest in these colonization races. Just thought I would vent that personal interest :P

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMekajiki View Post
    I'm sorry, but a lot of your ideas here just don't make any sense. I know you're asking for discussion, but you clearly have a very set idea of what you want here. You can have your own mod, there's nothing wrong with that, but trying to pass this off as plausible events is silly.

    The UK would not be able to claim that much of the US. While they could possibly occupy the land in battle, a significant portion of the population was alive during the Revolution, there's literally no way the British could hold that land. Also, your borders for Louisiana's territory are wrong. that's the 1818 Louisiana borders. Unless you've got an awesome butterfly net, I don't see the treaties going exactly the same way they did with a full US.

    Your Austria is too powerful. First of all, it would just be boring to play as them. Second of all, they just seem unreasonably strong. Austria should be the European powerhouse in this scenario, but controlling what OTL became the entire industrial regions of France, Italy, and Austria-Hungary is probably too strong. Unless you have a plan for breaking Austria down a bit during the game, I wouldn't suggest making it that powerful. While it's not as important to game start, as the period progresses(certainly by the 1860's), the French will not put up with Austrians on their land. There will be a revolt against them. And with the areas you've given Austria, it will be big.

    I was going to assume you didn't really play with the colonization much, but since you clearly did at least in Burma/China, I just want to say NO. Do not give a giant slice of western China to Britain. Really, you shouldn't just hand Burma to them either, but that's more okay. This will have horrible consequences and honestly just doesn't make any sense.


    A random side note: Will colonization end up going as normal? Honestly I've always thought that European colonization of useless areas as a measure of pride was an odd development, especially in much of Africa. It's worthless land that ended up costing them dearly. While it's certainly likely as arms races build between nations and they start flexing their muscles wherever they can, I've always thought it would be interesting if one of the alternate history mods decided to have the Europeans not really develop a sense of colonization on the level they did historically. There will definitely be some colonization in Africa still, but it will mostly stick to the small trading posts or rich wealthy areas that it did in the times before the era. These areas would also probably be very strongly assimilated compared to most of Africa historically was. Possibly even greater political integration like how Algiere was for France. That said, the major downside here is most of Africa going to waste as there's no people really worth mentioning to take up the non-useful lands that the alt-Europeans wouldn't occupy here. And it would be semi-challenging to get a Europe that doesn't have any interest in these colonization races. Just thought I would vent that personal interest :P
    Thank you, it's this kind of criticism I like.

    As for Austria, I've just poorly represented them holding on to Burgundy and having a North Italian Federation in union under them. My goal was definitely to make them a powerhouse though. The Borders in the USA are rough representations and i'm currently revising them to be MUCH smaller.

    Umm, I did get carried away with the colonies but my intention was that colonial claims would have advanced much more without having been set back 40 years by Napoleon.

    As for everything else.... I just need constructive criticism and I need to be told specific changes (the reason I am here in the first place)

    I like the Africa idea, I'm not entirely sure how I would make that happen though... If you're any good perhaps you could help?


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  5. #25
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    It seems that what you want is a decisive victory for the British during the American Revolution. If the British defeat the Americans, then it would be realistic for North America to be under British control. Furthermore, since the ideals of democracy and freedom died on some American battlefield, French soldiers would never be inspired to bring these grand and successful ideas back home with them. Then, if the War for Independence ends soon enough (particularly before the Battle of Saratoga) then the French never intervene at all and bankrupt themselves like morons. You could justify less British presence in India by claiming that the British spent more time fortifying and satisfying North America and less time expanding into India. In Britain's place, put the Mughals in the far north, Maratha in Central India, and then keep the pre-existing presence around Bombay and Calcutta/Bengal. The island of Ceylon should stay Dutch, and the rest of southern India should be British with Mysore and that other one as their satellite.

    That's at least what makes the most sense by what you want. IMO, of course.

  6. #26
    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroicnoodles View Post
    Prussia had a very advanced military around the time of the Napoleonic wars, which is why Napoleon wanted them to join his alliance.
    Simply untrue. Until beaten in 1806, the Prussian army was awfully outdated. With the HRE around, and without the German states having any motivation, I really cant see Germany forming.

    Also, Poland is shown on one of your maps.
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  7. #27
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    Also, Poland is shown on one of your maps
    Yes, the one from 1787... when Poland still existed


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  8. #28
    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Ooops, my mistake.

    However, I still dont see how you can get round the issue of no country having both means and motivation to achieve a unified Germany.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    Ooops, my mistake.

    However, I still dont see how you can get round the issue of no country having both means and motivation to achieve a unified Germany.
    If you had read above you;ll see I've abandoned that idea


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  10. #30
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    florida would be spanish

  11. #31
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    No thoughts on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    It seems that what you want is a decisive victory for the British during the American Revolution. If the British defeat the Americans, then it would be realistic for North America to be under British control. Furthermore, since the ideals of democracy and freedom died on some American battlefield, French soldiers would never be inspired to bring these grand and successful ideas back home with them. Then, if the War for Independence ends soon enough (particularly before the Battle of Saratoga) then the French never intervene at all and bankrupt themselves like morons. You could justify less British presence in India by claiming that the British spent more time fortifying and satisfying North America and less time expanding into India. In Britain's place, put the Mughals in the far north, Maratha in Central India, and then keep the pre-existing presence around Bombay and Calcutta/Bengal. The island of Ceylon should stay Dutch, and the rest of southern India should be British with Mysore and that other one as their satellite.

    That's at least what makes the most sense by what you want. IMO, of course.

  12. #32
    Better than Royalty (ABB) DoomBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    It seems that what you want is a decisive victory for the British during the American Revolution. If the British defeat the Americans, then it would be realistic for North America to be under British control.
    Easiest way to achieve this IMO is to have the Yankees lose at Trenton, or even Boston. Both are situations that could lead to a collapse of morale and resources before the French and others pile on and make the war harder for the British.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    Easiest way to achieve this IMO is to have the Yankees lose at Trenton, or even Boston. Both are situations that could lead to a collapse of morale and resources before the French and others pile on and make the war harder for the British.
    Or have that British soldier who had George Washington in his sights actually take the shot?
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroicnoodles View Post
    Thank you, it's this kind of criticism I like.

    As for Austria, I've just poorly represented them holding on to Burgundy and having a North Italian Federation in union under them. My goal was definitely to make them a powerhouse though. The Borders in the USA are rough representations and i'm currently revising them to be MUCH smaller.

    Umm, I did get carried away with the colonies but my intention was that colonial claims would have advanced much more without having been set back 40 years by Napoleon.

    As for everything else.... I just need constructive criticism and I need to be told specific changes (the reason I am here in the first place)

    I like the Africa idea, I'm not entirely sure how I would make that happen though... If you're any good perhaps you could help?
    As far as the colonization thing, I understand the headstart in colonization in the east, I just really want to stress that Britain steamrolling and conquering swaths of China is a major gameplay/AI problem(one that's actually already being worked on in AHD by making uncrossable borders in the Himalayas and such). Giving them a start on something we already don't want is kinda silly. And outside of gameplay, it's really weird for them do that. I know on a political map it looks like that land in western China is what Britain would reasonably take, but there's a reason they didn't historically: Going from India to that part of China is basically impossible. It's thick, crazy jungle. That's why they focused on naval and river invasions historically instead of trying to flood through Burma and the Himalayas, and it's also why Paradox is implementing these features in AHD.

    For African colonization: No, sorry. I just thought it would be interesting, but it's probably better for an Alternate History timeline than a V2 mod, since it kinda creates bad gameplay by leaving Africa unoccupied. I know I probably shouldn't have even brought it up :P

    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    It seems that what you want is a decisive victory for the British during the American Revolution. If the British defeat the Americans, then it would be realistic for North America to be under British control. Furthermore, since the ideals of democracy and freedom died on some American battlefield, French soldiers would never be inspired to bring these grand and successful ideas back home with them. Then, if the War for Independence ends soon enough (particularly before the Battle of Saratoga) then the French never intervene at all and bankrupt themselves like morons. You could justify less British presence in India by claiming that the British spent more time fortifying and satisfying North America and less time expanding into India. In Britain's place, put the Mughals in the far north, Maratha in Central India, and then keep the pre-existing presence around Bombay and Calcutta/Bengal. The island of Ceylon should stay Dutch, and the rest of southern India should be British with Mysore and that other one as their satellite.

    That's at least what makes the most sense by what you want. IMO, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    Easiest way to achieve this IMO is to have the Yankees lose at Trenton, or even Boston. Both are situations that could lead to a collapse of morale and resources before the French and others pile on and make the war harder for the British.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    Or have that British soldier who had George Washington in his sights actually take the shot?
    I don't think he's trying to avoid America ever having wont the Revolution or completely derailing the French Revolution before it happens. While it does make the whole scenario easier, it really violates his goals. Florida staying Spanish is definitely a cool idea. One possibility is some alt-War of 1812 leading to some more successful alt-Hartford Convention and Britain taking advantage of it? It requires a lot of handwaving, but if we have the USA do everything wrong and Britain do everything right(and get super lucky), we could have New England secede to get out of the heavy British blockade of the USA's coast and then have Britain take advantage of the chaos to conquer the seceding Northeast while the US basically says, "yeah whatever we hate you guys, you deserve it for seceding". It's a little easier to get this in say 1815-1825 than in 1860, when the US is much more established. Either way though, this is a very unlikely scenario. Probably wouldn't be the weirdest thing to ever happen in history though.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    It seems that what you want is a decisive victory for the British during the American Revolution. If the British defeat the Americans, then it would be realistic for North America to be under British control. Furthermore, since the ideals of democracy and freedom died on some American battlefield, French soldiers would never be inspired to bring these grand and successful ideas back home with them. Then, if the War for Independence ends soon enough (particularly before the Battle of Saratoga) then the French never intervene at all and bankrupt themselves like morons. You could justify less British presence in India by claiming that the British spent more time fortifying and satisfying North America and less time expanding into India. In Britain's place, put the Mughals in the far north, Maratha in Central India, and then keep the pre-existing presence around Bombay and Calcutta/Bengal. The island of Ceylon should stay Dutch, and the rest of southern India should be British with Mysore and that other one as their satellite.

    That's at least what makes the most sense by what you want. IMO, of course.
    I actually really like this idea....

    So the British win in the American revolution and France Never has one... The only problem is that it doesnt really warrant intervention by Austria, which was one of my biggest concerns, but now it doesnt really seem to matter. I'm going to make a new map, hold please.


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  16. #36
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    changes2.png

    Ok here we go:

    North America: Aside from Europe this is the biggest area of change.
    • Britain defeats the Americans in The revolution and therefore retains there colonies
    • There is no Louisiana purchase so at this time Louisiana is still French, however, mass immigration from The British colonies is causing widespread nationalism leading to the creation of the Cajun culture and a lot of nationalism.
    • Spain holds its grip on islands and Florida is never sold to the USA
    • Mexico wins its Independence
    • Central America is split between mexico and Spain as a result of Mexican conquest because Central America is too weak to Free itself
    • France holds on to Hispaniola

    South America: South America has Become the back alley of democracy, seeing as it's one of the few places were Democracy exists, the revolutions in south America however do not have the same effect as the American one would have had if it succeeded.
    • Portugese govt is never in exhile so brazil is still Portugese, with a growing nationalist movement
    • the Andes Republic, the south Andean state(pink) is first to gain freedom.
    • the andes republic inspires the Plata to break away, they find it easier as Spain has trouble getting troops there
    • The north Andead state is currently in an armistice with Spain due to high amounts of Loyalists in Venuzuela making it hard to beat the spanish. The Armistice is set to end in 1840, at which time the Andes republic is asked to join with the currently unnamed North Andean state, this will be the deciding factor in their independance.

    Europe: biggest changes are in the awe inspiring might of Austria, a very intentional move on my part.
    • Austria Retain their rein over bugungy
    • Germany is broken into allmost all one province minors around the rhine
    • Austria, having never lost control of them to Napoleon, consolidates their control over bavaria and Saxony, annexing them.
    • Denmark retains norway and holstein
    • Sweeden holds on to pommerania and part of finland
    • the partition of poland is never rearranged

    Ottoman Empire: They are partitioned for two reasons, one-because Europe wants land and they are weak, two- to kick Muslims out of Europe, finally.
    • Austria takes bosnia, montenegro and serbia
    • Russia creates a greater romania as a dominion
    • bulgaria is freed
    • Macedonia is created
    • the sicilians claim albania
    • greece, western anatolia and cyprus are taken by GB
    • a dual monarchy is created called the Dual Duchy of Thrace, one is an Orthodoxy duchy controlling thracia, the other is an islam emirate across the strait. they are created to keep immigration of greeks and turks in check and create a boundary so that neither can spill into the other.
    • Russia seizes Kars
    • Persia seizes Iraq and the remainder of the Kurds
    • France takes all ottoman land in Africa.
    • The remaining turkish kingdom is in Mid civil war when the game begins, the north is the Absolute monarchy Ottoman regime, the south is The Kingdom of Turkey, an HMs govt.

    Africa: Only two changes here
    • Dutch retain control over eastern cape colony
    • liberia dosnt exist

    Asia: Lots of Changes here
    • Russia consilidates central asia and releases them as a dominion (possibly civilized?) and they break away in the early game
    • russia seizes mongolia
    • British colonization of india is slowed due to their increased efforts to keep north america happy
    • dutch retains ceylon and controls the british port in jahore
    • dutch take brunei
    • spain invades china, first to take a major concession
    • portugal invades veitnam and cambodia


    My reasoning for Austria:
    Its realistic, with no napoleon they would have never lost burgundy, and Bavaria and Saxony were almost part of them anyway. The land hungry habsburgs took everything they could. By 1870 they would've hit rock bottom, hard. Napoleon kept this in check and was able to bolster them until 1914 (in a sense). So i'll have some sort of event fire that starts a chain of events that's as hard to stop as a freight train, causing them to collapse, it will be a real fun challenge to players. I think the only way to prevent it would be compromises that, if you manage to survive the 70s transform you into a republic of sorts.

    Louisiana:
    I'll definitely have them break away early on, they will be the successors of manifest destiny. Their primary culture will be Cajun and the will accept french and Yankee (and Dixie if they stay in the game). Their first goal is to expand to the pacific, then start fighting BG over the US. So it's possible to seem a French USA-like country by the end of the game.

    German Unification:
    this will most likely be the hardest thing to do in the game. But i'm still going to keep the possibility open to all south and north German states and switzerland.

    Italian unification:
    Probably impossible until after the 70s

    Switzerland:
    Switzerland is no longer neutral... enough said. they were made Neutral by the congress of Vienna. The Geneva convention will become the Constantinople convention, because Thrace is strictly neutral.


    Also I appreciate all the help and if anyone is willing to help with the actual modding that would be nice too.
    Last edited by Heroicnoodles; 23-12-2011 at 16:19.


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  17. #37
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    So, if the partition of Poland wasn't rearranged, then why has it been changed? Why has Austria taken pieces from the others partitions and why has Prussia taken pieces from Russia's partition?
    Also, what happened to Franche-Comté? (one of the Burgundian core lands)

    Loads of other things that I feel are wrong in that map. However, I can't be arsed to list them.
    "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling." —Shynka

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  18. #38
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    So, if the partition of Poland wasn't rearranged, then why has it been changed? Why has Austria taken pieces from the others partitions and why has Prussia taken pieces from Russia's partition?
    Also, what happened to Franche-Comté? (one of the Burgundian core lands)

    Loads of other things that I feel are wrong in that map. However, I can't be arsed to list them.
    The absence of rivers and province names forced me to estimate in some areas so yese there are lots of mistakes. This map is more of an estimate that exact and i'm only using it to give a general idea of what it will look like later.


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  19. #39
    Captain FMekajiki's Avatar
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    I like the new map a lot. Only real suggestions I have from here are:

    - Maybe change the northern Louisiana/Southern Canada borders. Like I said before, those borders were settled between the USA and UK in 1818, so while it's possible, it seems unlikely for the same agreement to happen between Britain and France. On the other hand, region changing opens a whole new can of worms so it might be something for down the road.

    - Why does Texas exist? Historically it was slave-owners from the USA moving in to staunchly anti-slavery Mexico, then revolting because they didn't like the laws of the land that they had moved in to(wtf? lol). Without a successful USA, I could still see the slavers moving west, possibly in to Tejas, but I doubt they would be as confident in victory if they revolted after the fledgling USA was crushed in its own revolution.

    - Is Two Sicilies really strong enough to control outside land like Albania? It's a pretty backward, unindustrialized place during these times and, when compared to the rest of Italy, even today.

    And are you sure that stopping Italian Unification after 1870 is a good idea? In this era, nationalism is a constantly growing thing. All the way up to WWI, this wasn't an era of small countries, this was an era of great empires uniting and rising. Most cultures unions that have the ability should be getting more and more likely to form with every passing year unless stopped by an outside force(HRE control in Germany, Poland being split between various GPs, any random GP deciding to curbstomp someone just because).

    The Dual Duchy in Thrace is cool. It would also be really interesting to have event-chains that focus around the inherent instability that others would try to force on a dual Muslim-Christian state, as well as some instability from within. Not saying it should necessarily collapse, but a little instability would make it a really interesting local power to play as.

  20. #40
    Modding Victoria 2 ZomgK3tchup's Avatar
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    I recommend loading up EU3 and looking at 1790 borders for Europe and India. Its a fairly accurate representation of the world before Napoleon and might be worth a look.

    The British should still own Bombay and Singapore and company, IIRC.

    I have a very hard time swallowing Spain defeating China so badly that China surrenders more than a port or two. China had roughly a third of the world's population at this time, and considering how backwards and small the Spanish Navy would be in comparison to the British force that arrived during the Opium Wars, I think China through sheer numbers would be able to at least stalemate with the Spanish.

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