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Thread: NOpoleon - Alternate history, sans Napoleon

  1. #1
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    NOpoleon - Alternate history, sans Napoleon

    It's peaked my interest that the world could have been a very different place without Napoleon or the French Revolution. So I've decided to make a mod to test the ramifications of such a thing. So here I am, requesting the help of you, forums.

    I need help with plotting out the 40 years between 1797 and 1836 but help with the actual modding would be appreciated, though i'm not begging.

    Whatever is largely agreed upon will be included in a list on the post below.

    Here are some maps:
    1789:
    Europe_1790_maxi.JPG
    1797:
    europe-1797.gif
    1815:
    775px-Map_congress_of_vienna.jpg
    Last edited by Heroicnoodles; 24-12-2011 at 00:44.


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  2. #2
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    Current Main Idea Synopsis:
    The USA was defeated in the revolution, thus there is no French Revolution, France is significantly weakened by economic stains of her support of the USA and her industry and military never truly recover. A congress is held in Paris as an attempt for french recovery in 1806. In the congress the situation of the Ottoman empire is addressed. Great powers decide to divide and partition them not only for personal gain but also to push Islam from Europe and restore stability to the Balkans. The French however do not make the recovery they hoped for and Austria is left as the dominant force in Europe. Colonization in Asia by Russia, the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal is also allowed to advance without the hindrance of the Napoleonic wars.

    Current map Draft:

    changes30.png

    Current changes:

    North America: Aside from Europe this is the biggest area of change.
    • Britain defeats the Americans in The revolution and therefore retains there colonies
    • There is no Louisiana purchase so at this time Louisiana is still French, however, mass immigration from The British colonies is causing widespread nationalism leading to the creation of the Cajun culture and a lot of nationalism.
    • Spain holds its grip on islands and Florida is never sold to the USA
    • Mexico wins its Independence
    • Central America is split between mexico and Spain as a result of Mexican conquest because Central America is too weak to Free itself
    • France holds on to Hispaniola
    • Texas has no revolution and Britain doesn't colonize Columbia.


    South America: South America has Become the back alley of democracy, seeing as it's one of the few places were Democracy exists, the revolutions in south America however do not have the same effect as the American one would have had if it succeeded.
    • Portugese govt is never in exhile so brazil is still Portugese, with a growing nationalist movement
    • the Andes Republic, the south Andean state(pink) is first to gain freedom.
    • the andes republic inspires the Plata to break away, they find it easier as Spain has trouble getting troops there
    • The north Andead state is currently in an armistice with Spain due to high amounts of Loyalists in Venuzuela making it hard to beat the spanish. The Armistice is set to end in 1840, at which time the Andes republic is asked to join with the currently unnamed North Andean state, this will be the deciding factor in their independance.
    • Dutch Own British section of Guyana

    Europe: biggest changes are in the awe inspiring might of Austria, a very intentional move on my part.
    • Austria Retains their rein over Belgium, AKA Austrian Netherlands, no such thing as Belgium
    • Germany is broken into almost all one province minors around the Rhine
    • Austria, having never lost control of them to Napoleon, consolidates their control over Bavaria and Saxony, annexing them.
    • Denmark retains Norway and Holstein
    • Sweden holds on to Pomeranian and part of Finland
    • the partition of Poland is never rearranged

    Italy: lots of changes here
    • free Malta, with no Egyptian campaign the french never take Malta, and thus neither does the UK.
    • Tuscany took land from the papal states, since without Napoleon there is no large French presence in Italy and thus nothing stopping Tuscany.
    • France took french land from Sardinia, with the exception of Nice.
    • Genoa remains independent continuing the rivalry between them and SP.
    • Genoa purchases Corsica from France, barely keeping France from bankruptcy after the American Revolution fails. In order to retain independence from SP Genoa annexes its weak OPM neighbors in Italy. The player's goal as Genoa would be to seize Nice from SP, forcibly ending the Union between Sardinia and Savoy.

    Ottoman Empire: They are partitioned for two reasons, one-because Europe wants land and they are weak, two- to kick Muslims out of Europe, finally.
    • Austria takes Bosnia, Montenegro and Serbia
    • Russia creates a greater Romania as a dominion
    • Bulgaria is freed
    • Macedonia is created
    • the Sicilians claim Albania
    • Greece, western Anatolia, Crete and Cyprus are taken by GB
    • a dual monarchy is created called the Dual Duchy of Thrace, one is an Orthodoxy duchy controlling thrace, the other is an Islam emirate across the strait. they are created to keep immigration of Greeks and Turks in check and create a boundary so that neither can spill into the other.
    • Russia seizes Kars
    • Persia seizes Iraq and the remainder of the Kurds
    • Gave Asmara to GB
    • Released Sudan.
    • France seizes Egypt
    • The remaining Turkish kingdom is in Mid civil war when the game begins, the north is the Absolute monarchy Ottoman regime, the south is The Kingdom of Turkey, an HMs govt.
    • I created the Greater Palestinian kingdom. This land proved to be a huge dispute throughout history so the great powers sought to create a stable, greater independent state of Palestine. It accepts Cultures from all over Palestine, even the Jews. Its civilized though nearly as backwards as an uncivilized, and it's and HMs Govt.

    Africa: Only two changes here
    • Liberia dosnt exist
    • added native nations, will have more advanced military tech due to the continuation of slavery and the slave trade.
    • Dutch own Cape Colony


    Asia: Lots of Changes here
    • Russia consilidates central asia and releases them as a dominion (possibly civilized?) and they break away in the early game
    • russia seizes mongolia
    • British colonization of india is slowed due to their increased efforts to keep north america happy
    • dutch retains ceylon and controls the british port in jahore
    • dutch take brunei
    • withdrew GB from Australia and NZ, replaced with Dutch and Portuguese.


    My reasoning for Austria:
    Its realistic, with no napoleon they would have never lost burgundy, and Bavaria and Saxony were almost part of them anyway. The land hungry habsburgs took everything they could. By 1870 they would've hit rock bottom, hard. Napoleon kept this in check and was able to bolster them until 1914 (in a sense). So i'll have some sort of event fire that starts a chain of events that's as hard to stop as a freight train, causing them to collapse, it will be a real fun challenge to players. I think the only way to prevent it would be compromises that, if you manage to survive the 70s transform you into a republic of sorts.

    Louisiana:
    I'll definitely have them break away early on, they will be the successors of manifest destiny. Their primary culture will be Cajun and the will accept french and Yankee (and Dixie if they stay in the game). Their first goal is to expand to the pacific, then start fighting BG over the US. So it's possible to seem a French USA-like country by the end of the game.

    German Unification:
    this will most likely be the hardest thing to do in the game. But i'm still going to keep the possibility open to all south and north German states and switzerland.

    Italian unification:
    Probably impossible until after the 70s

    Switzerland:
    Switzerland is no longer neutral... enough said. they were made Neutral by the congress of Vienna. The Geneva convention will become the Constantinople convention, because Thrace is strictly neutral.

    Austro-Russian Arms race:
    Austria's immense growth leads to an arms race/rivalry between the two. When Austria collapses Russia gobbles up various amounts of whats left, over expands and feels a good shake herself in the absence of Austria.
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    Last edited by Heroicnoodles; 24-12-2011 at 16:11.

  3. #3
    First Secretary Frymonmon's Avatar
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    Now, without Napoleon, you take away the very basis for the War of 1812 between the Americans and the British. America attacked Britain under the pretenses of stopping impressment of American sailors... but at this time the United States still had their alliance with France, and were pretty much banking on having their support should things go sour.

    Another thing I have a problem with would be the existence of an independent Louisiana. At this time, Americans were starting to shape their never-ending lust for land into Manifest Destiny. It was these early feelers of Manifest Destiny that motivated the United States to try and capture as much of Canada as they could during the War of 1812 (They used a three-pronged attack to try and conquer as much territory as possible for annexation to the United States. It failed miserably.) With an independent Louisiana, I cannot see why the United States would not make an attempt to annex them by force or by peace. Even as simple as something like Texas - where massive amounts of land-hungry American immigrants migrated to the land-rich Louisiana Country, and eventually staged their own revolt against the French-speaking people of New Orleans (which, would most certainty be annexed by the United States, it was vital for the continued usage of the Mississippi River.

    My only problem with less independence in Latin America was that it wasn't Napoleon at all that weakened or inspired the Spanish colonies into revolt. The successful American revolution to the north was the main driving factor behind it. One could argue the war threw the Spanish off track, but they were long on the decline since the 1600s.

    No Napoleon means you would have a fairly unstable France, with no consolidation and Napoleonic tactics, the French military would be a complete shell of what it is in Vanilla, and the most minuet fraction of what it was during Napoleon's reign.

    That is all the critical analysis I have to start off with at the moment.
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  4. #4
    Without Napoleon in particular, or without the French Revolution as a whole? They'd have two different results. My starting ideas:

    No Napoleon (but a French Revolution before Napoleon that goes basically the same)

    - Like Frymonmon, I can't really see an independent Louisiana unless the British have some reason to prop it up. The U.S. really wants that land and isn't too shy about using force (if perhaps in the more subtle way of settling and revolting - although I wouldn't rule out an outright invasion). If the British prop it up, I'd expect a war (since the U.S. doesn't seem too worried about that either - War of 1812, but over different things).
    - The Spanish colonies are an interesting thing - I think they'd still be in revolt, but it would be totally different borders, and there'd still be royalist forces throughout the continent (since Spain isn't dealing with the Napoleonic occupation). Perhaps this would actually create larger South American revolter states ("unite or die"), with some viceroyalties still stuck around.
    - Brazil would definitely be Portuguese. They weren't really inclined to revolt, and without the fleeing of the Portuguese court I don't think this would change for awhile (although some nationalistic fervor might be brewing up by the beginning of the scenario).
    - Germany would be really divided (basically all OPMs - actually a lot of states too small to even be represented as OPMs), with the Habsburgs at the top.
    - France would be a mess, but probably Bourbon again with some territorial cuts perhaps as payment from the nations which took down the Republic.

    No Revolution
    - France is going to be rather unhappy still, but powerful. It depends on whether it got its act together after the time OTL the Revolution happened or whether it just continued spiraling into debt.
    - Louisiana would probably still be American, either by war/revolution (Texas revolution style - maybe that could be happening at the game start) or by a land sale.
    - The Spanish colonies might actually survive even better, although still there's going to be some strong breakaways just due to people tired of the old colonial regimes.
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  5. #5
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    I'm thinking there would have been a revolution but it wasn't as strong so it had more trouble taking over France, and when it does it causes an armed intervention to restore the monarchy by other countries. Particularly Austria who wants to install a Hapsburg King, but they don't succeed because they have to be supported by Spain and Great Britain. This Causes Great Britain To Free some of the French colonies (initially as dominions of Britain) including Louisiana. Austria Takes Land from France, particularly in the form of French dominion/sphere in Italy so that Around 1836 you've got 2 major factions in Italy, Pro-Hapsburg Italy and Independent Italy, who are uniting against each other. As for Spanish claims, i'm not entirely sure except for a change of borders in the Pyrenees. Post intervention France is left as a shell of the former France, militarily and industrial speaking, their borders are chopped up and they have mounting social unrest leading to a civil war circa 1836.

    As for the Americas... Perhaps the USA loses 1812 a lot harder and that is when Britain takes land down to at least Maryland, considering it was Napoleon that caused Britain to settle for a white-ish peace in the first place. Britain, considering they freed Louisiana, though they are no longer Dominions, protect Louisiana from the USA, perhaps in a war at the beginning of the game? I believe we agree Portugal retains Brazil, with a growing independence movement in the early-mid game (This is going on the list now).

    As for Spanish holdings... Spain inst as weakened by the Napoleonic wars so its a lot harder for south Americans to revolt, it takes longer and they have to be more unified etc...etc... This results in the South Andean culture being unified as the Andes/Bolivares Republic, the first lasting succession from Spain. This Prompts the Platanian revolt, who have less trouble winning resulting in an Argentina that owns both of the guays. The game begins during an armistice of sorts between The North Andean state El "Dorado" (encompassing Ecuador and Southern Colombian territory) and Spanish held Columbia, Central America (including Yucatan) and Venezuela (in addition to Caribbean Isles, including Hispaniola, taken from French). This could perhaps break into war with an event in the Early game, it's success depending on whether the Andean Republic intervenes on the independent North Andean state or not.Also, free Mexico sans Yucatan.

    Tell me what you think of the above.
    Last edited by Heroicnoodles; 20-12-2011 at 08:54.


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  6. #6
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    Additional thoughts:

    The Power Vacuum created by the defeat of France causes an Early semi-unification in Germany, Giving GB a colonial rival.

    Without the Napoleonic wars setting colonization back 20-30 years British, German, Dutch and Portuguese Colonies are more expansive, encompassing Parts of Arabia, Indo-china, china and Japan.

    Older colonies revolt sooner and Start out with cores in some areas such as Cape colony and Australia (which I don't want Britain to own 100% to themselves)


    As you may have noticed I despise Anglo-Saxons...


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  7. #7
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    I see no reason Poland would exist, and I also see no reason Germany would realistically become unified. The whole driving force behind unification was the fact that Napoleon beat Prussia and the other German states into the dirt.

    If the revolution still happened, then I doubt France would have been able to hold Louisiana. I also doubt that without Britain pre occupied fighting Napoleon the war of 1812 would have happened, seeing as the US saw an oppurtunity whilst Britain was busy. They werent stupid enough to try and take on Britain alone (On paper at least, its near suicide).

    I also see a problem with the Revolutionary wars ending in 1802. Historically, I very much doubt that the Spanish, British and Austrians alone could have taken down Revolutionary France. The Spanish army was horribly outdated, the British and Austrian not much better. They had less men, werent fighting on home soil, werent coordinated and were for the most part, poorly led. I think Revolutionary France would have survived, leaving it in a state much like that of the USSR.
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  8. #8
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBunny View Post
    I see no reason Poland would exist, and I also see no reason Germany would realistically become unified. The whole driving force behind unification was the fact that Napoleon beat Prussia and the other German states into the dirt.

    If the revolution still happened, then I doubt France would have been able to hold Louisiana. I also doubt that without Britain pre occupied fighting Napoleon the war of 1812 would have happened, seeing as the US saw an oppurtunity whilst Britain was busy. They werent stupid enough to try and take on Britain alone (On paper at least, its near suicide).

    I also see a problem with the Revolutionary wars ending in 1802. Historically, I very much doubt that the Spanish, British and Austrians alone could have taken down Revolutionary France. The Spanish army was horribly outdated, the British and Austrian not much better. They had less men, werent fighting on home soil, werent coordinated and were for the most part, poorly led. I think Revolutionary France would have survived, leaving it in a state much like that of the USSR.
    Who said anything about Poland?

    With the absence of France to be dominant on Mainland Europe Prussia seeks to take its place, and that's the Driving force that unifies them.

    As I said the revolution was horridly weaker than the actual one, it took them a lot longer to take control, and even then they were still fighting the old regime, that when Austria Invades, and the cant take them alone so Britain and Spain Open up two extra fronts, so regardless of the quality of Spain troops they have an advantage. Also The revolution in it's early stages were poorly equipped, it's not until a few years after they won that they became the unstoppable force that they were.

    As for the USA it could be some other other war that sends them down, maybe Britain, having a new sense of pride after beating Rev France and Invades the USA.

    France didn't hold Louisiana, they were taken as a Dominion by the Brits.


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  9. #9
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    Well, Prussia wouldn't be quite as dominant. There'd be Saxony and Bavaria in Germany in addition to Austria. If anything, Germany would be more divided. Especially seeing as the OTL German nationalism would not arise without Napoleon invading Germany and the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine. Also, Austria would keep its Burgundian land I'm quite sure.

    Up in Scandinavia, we've got Denmark-Norway and Sweden (with Finland that is) still there seeing as without the Napoleonic Wars they wouldn't have ended up like OTL. Also, Sweden would have kept its holdings in Germany.

    What I would personally like to see as well is the whole Ottoman Empire balkanised into a bunch of smaller states with extensive cores on each others. The whole area would be filled with conflicts. That'd be a fun start.

    EDIT: another thing, those maps seem a bit inaccurate. For example, AFAIK, Switzerland didn't acquire Géneve until after the Napoleonic Wars.
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  10. #10
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    Wouldn't the Holy Roman Empire still exist if Napoleon didn't dismember it? Germany isn't going anywhere if Austria and the Emperor say otherwise.

    As you may have noticed I despise Anglo-Saxons...
    This is not a good way to start a thread. D: Plus, Divergences already removed every trace of an Anglo-Saxon country from the game. Why torment poor Britannia any further?

  11. #11
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    Prussia had a very advanced military around the time of the Napoleonic wars, which is why Napoleon wanted them to join his alliance. After Austria spends itself out restoring the monarchy in France it is in no real position to Challenge Prussian Consolidation in North Germany until they hit Saxony. But before Saxony Ger Invade Nordic held Pomeranian and Holstein, Sweden is weak from fighting Russia and gives in when their Navy is sunk and Denmark is just weak. Now the only thing Prussia is missing to form NGF is Hanover and Saxony. So Prussia invades Saxony/Austria around the same time the UK invades the USA. Saxony is crushed and Austria loses the decisive battle of Prague a year after the war begins, they loses a lot of there military and committing many more troops could cause them to lose their control in the unstable Balkans. So they give away Saxony in exchange for Prussia Recognizing Austrian claims on the Bohemian border. Now Prussia invades Hanover, British are forced to sign a treaty with USA. The treaty ending this war makes Prussia give up land they took from small dutch princes during their consolidation and sign an agreement that they wouldn't go to war with anyone for X amount of years (kinda like containment) in exchange they receive dominion over Hanover and form NGF. This starts the Anglo-Germanic Arms race far earlier, causing a colonial race between the two.


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  12. #12
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    Denmark, weak? Where the hell are you coming from boy? They were able to hold off the Germans in 1848 (and that was without Norway). Also, why would Sweden fight Russia when it's in no position to do so? With no Napoleonic Wars, Sweden would still remain a fair power.

    And why would the UK invade the USA? There's no reason to.

    You're really just trying to wank Prussia, and reducing Scandinavia to vanilla state for no reason. Honestly, that's what it seems like. It just makes it quite implausible in my eyes. And an uninteresting MOD. It would, IMO, be far more interesting with a splintered Germany.
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  13. #13
    First Lieutenant Heroicnoodles's Avatar
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    My apologies regarding Denmark... It don't know very much about them.
    But Sweden would definitely loose Finland to the Russians
    The Uk would invade the USA to reclaim them.

    I suppose since the Germany topic is me vs the world Germany will remain splintered under Austria (For the most part).

    I made this map suggesting borders, just ignore Germany, it also includes the partitioned ottomans:

    map1je.jpg
    Last edited by Heroicnoodles; 20-12-2011 at 17:29.


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  14. #14
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    UK would invade USA to reclaim what? I am sorry, but even when they burned Washington, the British were sane enough to know they could never hold onto the United States again. Why? Because every single one of them redneck Americans has some type of gun, fiercely independent, and let's not forget, are still close enough historically to the Revolution to not have forgotten about it.

    Without Napoleon, Austria would probably be the major powerhouse of the HRE, because remember, the Holy Roman Empire was disbanded by Napoleon.
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  15. #15
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    Well, Austria's Burgundian possession should be reduced to Burgundy (which would mean something like: Belgium, Luxemburg, Franche-Comté and Alsace. Something like that. The rest could be made into new member-states of the HRE.)

    Now the "German Partition" of the Ottomans should be reduced IMO. You could create a greater Armenia, Kurdistan and Trebizond () from it at least. Also, why do the Brits have the Byzantine Empire in that map?

    EDIT: also, as above poster has said: there is nothing for the UK to "reclaim" in the USA.

    EDIT2: Also, why are the borders in Poland the post-napoleonic one? The Austrian and Prussian part used to be bigger, you know.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    Well, Austria's Burgundian possession should be reduced to Burgundy (which would mean something like: Belgium, Luxemburg, Franche-Comté and Alsace. Something like that. The rest could be made into new member-states of the HRE.)

    Now the "German Partition" of the Ottomans should be reduced IMO. You could create a greater Armenia, Kurdistan and Trebizond () from it at least. Also, why do the Brits have the Byzantine Empire in that map?

    EDIT: also, as above poster has said: there is nothing for the UK to "reclaim" in the USA.

    EDIT2: Also, why are the borders in Poland the post-napoleonic one? The Austrian and Prussian part used to be bigger, you know.
    There will be no German partition, I didn't edit Poland's borders and Burgundy was roughly done.


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  17. #17
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroicnoodles View Post
    There will be no German partition, I didn't edit Poland's borders and Burgundy was roughly done.
    Um, why not? No Napoleon means no restructuring Europe's borders in Wien. So, Prussia and Austria would keep the parts of Poland which they lost to Russia IOTL.

    Also, use these maps: Victoria-II-Paintable-World-Maps
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  18. #18
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    suggestedchanges.jpg

    These are my projected changes use this link and amend it because I know you want to.

    You cant directly edit mine because i uploaded it as a jpeg.



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  19. #19
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    Wouldn't the Persians have a partition of the Ottomans? They certainly would like a chunk of Iraq from the Turks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    Wouldn't the Persians have a partition of the Ottomans? They certainly would like a chunk of Iraq from the Turks.
    Or all of it? :P
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