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Thread: East Africa Thread

  1. #1
    Sayonara Zetsubou Robusuta
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    East Africa Thread

    There are some problems I've noticed about East Africa:

    The Leader of Ethiopia is Newaya Krestos which is correct but he was a member of the Solomonic Dynasty, Newaya Krestos is just his given name. For example the next emperor of was Newaya Maryam, his oldest son. So that should be fixed. Additionally the government probably shouldn't be tribal but a regular Despotic Monarchy, Tribal Nations have a lot of stability issues that simply never happened in Ethiopia until the 18th century

    Secondly the Mogadishu Sultanate is the wrong culture, wrong name and the wrong capital.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuuraan_State

    The state's name should be Ajuraan Sultanate or Muqdisho, why the heck is the name Mogadiscio? That's Italian! The capital should be Mareeg in the Mogadishu province. The culture of all 3 of its provinces should be Somali. Also I've never read anything about Somalia being vassals to Zanzibar? Also Ajuuraan should know where Adal is.

    Also would you consider adding the Warsangali Sultanate?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsangali_Sultanate

    In Nubia Darfur could use some work, by the 1400s the Daju tribe ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daju_people ) had been defeated and driven into Western Darfur and Chad by the Tunjur ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunjur_people ). So the rulers should be Tunjur.

    Also shouldn't Kanem-Bornu own that Djado province (that thin little stick province) instead of having it uncolonized?
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 16-12-2011 at 21:44. Reason: I think I used the word 'also' way too many times

  2. #2
    I hate video games HabemusZlatan's Avatar
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    Feudal Monarchy (Empire tier) is the right government form for Ethiopia (just for the sake of keeping the imperial title Ethiopian rules actually held). They should aslo be at least in Muslim tier technology as they used to rule east africa until the Adali-Ottoman invasion. They also knew perfectly were european coutries where, while in the game they seem like they don't know who lives near there except the mamluks.
    Here be dragons

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    God of the Mega Campaign Moderator Mr. Capiatlist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HabemusZlatan View Post
    Feudal Monarchy (Empire tier) is the right government form for Ethiopia (just for the sake of keeping the imperial title Ethiopian rules actually held). They should aslo be at least in Muslim tier technology as they used to rule east africa until the Adali-Ottoman invasion. They also knew perfectly were european coutries where, while in the game they seem like they don't know who lives near there except the mamluks.
    I am fairly certain that gigau said Ethiopia will be in the Muslim tier next release. If not, it should be, definitely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HabemusZlatan View Post
    Feudal Monarchy (Empire tier) is the right government form for Ethiopia (just for the sake of keeping the imperial title Ethiopian rules actually held). They should aslo be at least in Muslim tier technology as they used to rule east africa until the Adali-Ottoman invasion. They also knew perfectly were european coutries where, while in the game they seem like they don't know who lives near there except the mamluks.
    East Africa should also have a greater knowledge of Arabia and India. the Swahili coast was a conduit of trade between Africa, India, Persia and Arabia (primarily Oman and Yemen). Trade really is the key here, and the source of the wealth of Zanzibar, Dar Es Salaam, Mombasa and Mogadishu so knowing more centres of trade would really reflect the triangular trade in the Indian Ocean more accurately.

  5. #5
    I hate video games HabemusZlatan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    East Africa should also have a greater knowledge of Arabia and India. the Swahili coast was a conduit of trade between Africa, India, Persia and Arabia (primarily Oman and Yemen). Trade really is the key here, and the source of the wealth of Zanzibar, Dar Es Salaam, Mombasa and Mogadishu so knowing more centres of trade would really reflect the triangular trade in the Indian Ocean more accurately.
    Ethiopians even conquered Arabian west coast at some point, truth be told, and in game they can't see where it is.
    And traded as far as Java (at least this is what I understood, I may well be wrong).


    So yes, eastern african nations need have a little more knowledge of India and Arabia.
    Here be dragons

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Capiatlist View Post
    I am fairly certain that gigau said Ethiopia will be in the Muslim tier next release. If not, it should be, definitely.
    Will the military unit technology also be moved to Muslim too?

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    God of the Mega Campaign Moderator Mr. Capiatlist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Will the military unit technology also be moved to Muslim too?
    I'd assume.
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  8. #8
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    The provinces of Usegua and Guirijima should also belong to the Ajuuraan State and their culture should also be Somali.

  9. #9
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    There are some problems I've noticed about East Africa:

    The Leader of Ethiopia is Newaya Krestos which is correct but he was a member of the Solomonic Dynasty, Newaya Krestos is just his given name. For example the next emperor of was Newaya Maryam, his oldest son. So that should be fixed. Additionally the government probably shouldn't be tribal but a regular Despotic Monarchy, Tribal Nations have a lot of stability issues that simply never happened in Ethiopia until the 18th century
    Changed for v5.3


    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Secondly the Mogadishu Sultanate is the wrong culture, wrong name and the wrong capital.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuuraan_State

    The state's name should be Ajuraan Sultanate or Muqdisho, why the heck is the name Mogadiscio? That's Italian! The capital should be Mareeg in the Mogadishu province. The culture of all 3 of its provinces should be Somali. Also I've never read anything about Somalia being vassals to Zanzibar? Also Ajuuraan should know where Adal is.
    Changed for v5.3


    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Also would you consider adding the Warsangali Sultanate?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsangali_Sultanate
    Not considered it yet, actually. What would the added value of that nation ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    In Nubia Darfur could use some work, by the 1400s the Daju tribe ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daju_people ) had been defeated and driven into Western Darfur and Chad by the Tunjur ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunjur_people ). So the rulers should be Tunjur.
    Fair enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Also shouldn't Kanem-Bornu own that Djado province (that thin little stick province) instead of having it uncolonized?
    That province was much populated. The way i see it, it would give it an unwarranted importance.
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    God of the Mega Campaign Moderator Mr. Capiatlist's Avatar
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    Ethiopia should probably be a Feudal Monarchy of the Kingdom tier.

    King of Semien is around this area.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post

    Not considered it yet, actually. What would the added value of that nation ?
    Well historically they were important but in terms of Gameplay, preserving Adal as a viable state is most important and the profinces in East Africa are too big to divy up so I think I'll withdraw this. But a State that I failed to mention earlier that I DO think is important and should be added is the Ifat Sultanate who were powerful rivals to the Ethiopian Kings and controlled parts of Christian Ethiopia such as Shewa for many years.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifat_Sultanate
    Also it would be a good revolter to represent the later Aussa Sultanate of the 18th century
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aussa_Sultanate

    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    That province was much populated. The way i see it, it would give it an unwarranted importance.
    Well there are 2 reasons:
    Historical Kanem did own this vast swath of desert, as thinly populated as it was but more importantly right now not having it is as a regular province is disaster! Fezzan province is part of Kanem (as it should be, Sabha was and still is an important oasis town) but Kanem is unable to send troops to the province and the provinces and as soon as the province gets hit my any random revolt it revolts FOREVER. A rebellion in Fezzan in the 14th century usually lasts until the end of the game!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Well there are 2 reasons:
    Historical Kanem did own this vast swath of desert, as thinly populated as it was but more importantly right now not having it is as a regular province is disaster! Fezzan province is part of Kanem (as it should be, Sabha was and still is an important oasis town) but Kanem is unable to send troops to the province and the provinces and as soon as the province gets hit my any random revolt it revolts FOREVER. A rebellion in Fezzan in the 14th century usually lasts until the end of the game!
    That's interesting... I usually see the province conquered away, or used to turn Kanem into a super power. Since countries cannot 100% occupy Kanem (due to one provinces floating out unattached), they tend to occupy what they can and then eventually get a forced white peace. So Kanem either wins or doesn't lose. Either way I have a feeling that this makes Kanem so over powered. In games when I play as an African state or take their Libyan province they don't grow so much... in games when they keep it they go crazy.
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    Some population changes are in order in Ethiopia to better reflect not only static populations but given that Ethiopia doesn't get any events to simulate the mass immigration of Oromo (Galla) peoples into Southern Ethiopia in the 16th century. Also a lot of the province names are in the wrong places! It's pretty confusing when you look at a historical map of Ethiopia and you look at the MEIOU map! Also there really needs to be an Afar culture, lumping them into 'Somali' is like lumping Tigrean into 'Amharic' and historical the two groups did not really cooperate all that much and Afar national entities (Ifat Sultanate and Assua Sultanate) where entirely focused on fighting Ethiopia. So if they can't be made Afar they should be made Amhara or Tigrean instead even though they were are closely related to Somali (although still separate) they were far more involved with Ethiopia internally.

    Masawa should be Tigrean
    Assawa could be renamed Danakil. Its capital should be Asab and should be Afar
    Barka is fine
    And here's where it gets confusing:
    Amhara should be renamed to Wollo. Its capital should be Wasal
    Wollo should be renamed to Tigray. Its capital should be Aksum
    Tigre should be renamed Begemder. Its capital should be Gorgora and should be the capital of Ethiopia (Its culture should be Amhara. Nearby Gondar would later become the capital but was not built until 1635)
    Gonder should be renamed Shewa. Its capital should be Tegulet
    Gojjiam should be renamed Gojjam. Its capital should be Debre Marqos
    Bale should be renamed Aussa. Its capital should be Asaita and should be Afar and Muslim
    Shoa should be renamed Dawaro. Its capital should be Adama
    Oromo should be renamed Hadiya. Its capital should be Hadiya. The province should be Muslim
    Keffa should be renamed Kaffa. Its capital should be Bonga
    Jubba should be renamed Bale. Its capital should be Goba
    Kilimandjaro should be renamed Sidamo but remain uncolonized.
    Ifat's capital city should be Saylac and should be Afar.
    Sennar province should be Nubian.
    Hargeisa should be renamed Ogaadeen. Its capital should be Adari
    Zeila should be named Barbara, its capital should be Barbara
    Punt's capita should be Bandar Qasim
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 18-12-2011 at 08:05. Reason: more stuff!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Capiatlist View Post
    That's interesting... I usually see the province conquered away, or used to turn Kanem into a super power. Since countries cannot 100% occupy Kanem (due to one provinces floating out unattached), they tend to occupy what they can and then eventually get a forced white peace. So Kanem either wins or doesn't lose. Either way I have a feeling that this makes Kanem so over powered. In games when I play as an African state or take their Libyan province they don't grow so much... in games when they keep it they go crazy.
    Kanem did grow very large in its time but if there was a land connection to Fezzan that it would actually be possibler for African states to get 100% war score finally and force a peace. With a land connection to Fezzan now its possible to take the province properly.

  15. #15
    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Semi-Lobster's changes brought to Ethiopia


    For the province across the Sahara, i don't see how it can prevent Kanem from sending troops... they have knowledge of the province and armies can march there.
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    F-CEO of EUIV:MEIOU and Taxes gigau's Avatar
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    Mr Capiatlist, i moved your post as Semi-lobster made some suggestions here for the Ethiopia area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Capiatlist View Post
    Ethiopia should probably be a Feudal Monarchy of the Kingdom tier.
    Done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Capiatlist View Post
    King of Semien is around this area.
    I guess this means that the newly-named Begember province would go to the Semien Kingdom ?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gigau View Post
    Mr Capiatlist, i moved your post as Semi-lobster made some suggestions here for the Ethiopia area.
    I guess this means that the newly-named Begember province would go to the Semien Kingdom ?
    Lake Tana was also the capital of Ethiopia though, its was always in that region. Begember historically was a small area centered around Lake Tana, the site where Ethiopian Kings held their roaming courts until the establishment of the city of Gondar in the 1600s. The Beta Israel lived in Dembiya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dembiya and then where forced out and pushed into the Semien Province. Semien and Debiya would later be incorporated into Begember.

    This gigantic Italian map should give you a good idea where all these provinces are since their modern boundaries no longer exist
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...itrea-1896.jpg
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 18-12-2011 at 20:21.

  18. #18
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    Another thing to consider is the inclusion of the Kingdom of Makuria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makuria

    Another Nubian Kingdom north of Alodia (Alwa). While definitely in decline by the start of the game Makuria was still am independent political entity. Throughout the 14th century there was a civil war in Makuria over the placing of a Muslim member of the ruling Dynasty on the throne by the Fatmids in 1317. Christian princes rose up and the kingdom was in a state of civil war at the games start. The warfare more or less ruined the kingdom until it was inherited by the Arab-Sudanese Banu Kaz clan in 1412 who finally brought an end to the fighting. The Banu Kaz continued to rule Makuria, or as they called it Al-Maris as a vassal of the Mamelukes until 1517 when it was taken by the Ottomans and incorporated into Egypt.

    The situation I see is that the kingdom comprise of the province of Dongola (it's capital), Sawakin, Aydhab and Qasr Ibrahim. The country would be Muslim but Dongola and Sawakin province would be Coptic Christian and controlled by Christian fanatic rebels. The stability for the country would be poor.

    There's even a supposed flag for the Kingdom
    http://flagspot.net/flags/sd_f0fxx.html

    Al Gharbiyya provinces should be Egyptian not Nubian. Makuria can have a territorial claim on Aswan.
    The capital of Dotawo should be Dau.
    Nubia/Alwa's capital should be Soba, not Sennar.
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 19-12-2011 at 03:44.

  19. #19
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    The Semien situation is tricky, the provinces in Ethiopia are too big to represent the small Kingdom properly because it was far up in the Semien Mountain range and their reach extended south to Eastern Begember

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._districts.png (for reference to modern Ethiopian subdivisions)

    The most straight forward solution would be IMO, to split Begember and Tigray from 2 provinces into 3 or 4 but since that seems unlikely... the best... abstraction would be a OPM Semien in the Tigray province

  20. #20
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    Hi gigau, I saw in the edit list for 5.3

    • Changes to Modadishio renamed the empire of Ajuura
    Mogadishu should be 'Ajuuraan'. Ajuuraan being a proper noun, the 'an' at the end is not a suffix.

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